The Gate

Hi ... again... a few minutes later....

Feel like exploring Q3

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?
Please report from the past few days.

Addressing the first part of the question, the first answer that comes to mind is liberating. It feels liberating as if a heavy weight has been lifted from the shoulders, as it were.

And, the second part of the question ...


Again... the noticing (the difference) usually happens during exchanges with other people... It is as if all of the sudden there is nothing to defend... when this feeling is present, the mutual exploration of things becomes far more easier. There is also lightness... even a kind of humility that is difficult to explain because it is more like a different way of being present with an experience ... There is more openness and expansiveness... there is a feeling of releasing ... before there was a felt sense of holding on to something -without actually holding nothing... it is just a feeling in the hands... as if a grip has been released... a kind of emptiness... a weird kind of emptiness (not in a psychological depressive way)... as if something has gone -not quite knowing what is it...

looking forward to your observations

Love

Akita
ps. Tomorrow I'll be going on to a weekend meditation retreat... may not be able to post until Monday... although will try to do it from my phone ... If there is a reply tomorrow morning, I'll reply before going off -it is nearly midnight over here and it is sticky hot.

Hi Akita!

Always good hearing back!

Mind....supporting DE, rather than thought always being the 'main show'.


In what ways does mind support DE?

Good question! Apologies, this is not clearly expressed. Mind - obviously - has a role as we go about our daily lives. On this level, mind and thought are going to keep trying to work things out; seeing patterns, anticipating, forming conclusions, making judgments and all the usual stuff. Don't expect that to stop. Don't even expect to never again be caught up in its stories, at least temporarily, though there won't be the same identification with this ever-changing flow of thoughts, ideas and all. In this sense, mind 'supports' ordinary experience, in that there is direct experience and then there is usually some analysis of that (naming, recognizing, working out if this is a threat etc etc). That is all I meant here. It would have been clearer to say that mind continues to follow DE...adding its own interpretations...but we no longer take it so seriously. You are right to query - of course mind doesn't support DE! DE is simply what is, in the moment - it absolutely doesn't require any support from mind! Hey Akita, you're keeping me on my toes now! I take this as a good sign! ;-)

It feels liberating as if a heavy weight has been lifted from the shoulders, as it were.

Excellent. So beautiful to share in this. Loving reading your answers here.

Do keep going with the questions, as and when the opportunity arises.

All good wishes!

x Hare

Good morning Hare...

Greetings from a rainy country; it has been raining quite a bit... here I am before the power goes off ... it has done it several times over the last few days...

Before going off to a weekend retreat... here there is a go to Q4

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?


What do you mean?


Was there a particular point when the illusory nature of self was conclusively seen through? For some it is a specific moment that is clearly a turning point. For others it is a more gradual falling away, but there may still be 'landmarks' where the view shifted. Say something about the shift between not seeing and seeing.

There has been several entry points it should be said... the remarkable thing here is that there hasn't been any fireworks, as expected! But rather a need to pay a closer attention to the nature of experience and Self ... or the self trying to make a grand appearance.

This reminds me of a past post were you quoted Bill as follows

"Liberation is not a thought, a feeling or a state.
Its really so ordinary that we have almost totally missed it.

Sometimes there is that sort of feeling... A feeling that something is changing... fading away... It manifests itself in actions and even thoughts... the kind of thought that supports DE as you have explained...

mind 'supports' ordinary experience, in that there is direct experience and then there is usually some analysis of that (naming, recognizing, working out if this is a threat etc etc). That is all I meant here.

In recalling the 'landmarks', I have several of them...

1). As said repeatedly, it has happened during interactions with friends, lover and colleagues... First of all, there is an awareness of the body... of presence... Im there... watching, sensing, hearing... less buzzing thoughts interfering with listening...

Secondly, there is an awareness of the use of language and how it leads directly into conflict... It is is an observation of actions and thoughts and its consequences... During the exchange, it is possible to see the so-called 'selfing' process... it is like an impulse to control whatever is happening... an impulse to defend a set of views or ideas... an impulse to not seeing the other person...

You write:

Say something about the shift between not seeing and seeing.

...

Yes, it is like that... like not seeing and then starting to see, first the impulse of the start of the 'selfing' process... then the realisation of what is happening followed by the dropping away...

That process, that has happened several times is rather powerful... like an electric shock...

2). It has happened during the dream state...

3). Yesterday, walking down the street... It was a sudden and powerful falling away of the sense of Self... there was just walking ...

The 'I' that is useful in all this investigation keeps looking at its real nature... it is a mystery ... It feels as if it is there... yet when the looking is directed to it... it is not there... nothing to look at... to see at ... then who or what is looking? It is puzzling and mind blowing...

I'm feeling happy with how this process is manifesting in daily life... people has started to notice that something is changing in my interactions... less, much less reacting and more exploring, more clarifying...

As for now, what is arising as important is a need for constant looking in order to immediately rectify ... what looks or really is defending something ... I mean, from defending to dialogue... from being closed and contracted to being open and relaxed... from a narrow to an open perspective...

What is important is to clarify and to see what get me into trouble (with myself or with others) for what it is ... stories made up to defend something that doesn't exists, therefore it is not defendible... There is nothing to defend: no-thing, no-event, no-me... do you know what I mean?

that is what I'm aware of... no fireworks, so far... the process seems to be subtle... continuous but subtle... if there is no attention, it faces the possibility of being missed in the chaos of daily life -even the busyness of daily life is started to feel too much, there is also a need for space ... for silence... good thing there is a retreat coming...!

Thanks a lot - Have an enjoyable w/e.

Akita

Hi ...again...

Could you please clarify a few things before answering Q5... This is

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How
does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

As you rightly said, Q5 is made of several bits, perhaps more bits than the others...

When you ask

Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control.

Do you mean as cognitive functions? Do you mean as experiences? Or both? Or do you mean something else altogether?

When you ask:

What makes things happen?

1). Are you implying cause and effect?
2). What sort of things are you referring to? things outside, like life-making things? things inside, like the story told about something?
3). Is it about choosing one of the cognitive functions as cause?

When you ask?

How does it work?

Once a decision has been made (about what makes things happen), are you asking for a description of the process?

When you ask?

What are you responsible for?

It is a puzzling question... because the immediate answer is: 'of everything...'

It is puzzling because the question will lead me to say 'I' am responsible for... yet there is no 'I'...! Whom is responsible from actions and its consequences? ... How does a sense of responsibility arises when there is no 'I'? Whom or what takes moral decisions? Whom or what makes moral choices? ---

Morality, Ethics... responsibility and transgression are interesting topics implicit in your question... would you agree?

A big cross-Atlantic hug

Akita

Here again... for a third occasion this morning...

Re-reading past posts I came across the following:

Sun Jun 15, 2014 11:49 pm

Hi Akita,

Thanks for your post.

how would I know whether I've finally seen through the illusion...


It may help to read the following a couple of times and make sure you are clear, check if you don't understand something.

The seeing happens in DE, not in thought. It may be a flash, a glimpse, or a gradual dawning - a clear seeing that the self simply does not exist (anywhere other than as a thought or construct - which is nowhere!). Once the child peeked and saw that it was Dad, not Santa, who brought the presents to the foot of his bed, he would never go back to believing it was Santa..

Can 'you' go back, having looked and seen - or not seen - to belief in a fixed, independently existing self?

The attention was drawn towards the last bit...

Can 'you' go back, having looked and seen - or not seen - to belief in a fixed, independently existing self?

I don't think so... there is a sense that once the process has started and is gaining momentum, there is no turning back... in spite of the 'buts or a shadows of a doubt' that comes up from time to time (and seen for what they are...), the feeling is of a tremendous relief... and a sense of 'Oh, yes... there is no turning back... you wanted it that way baby...! So be it...

For a third time... a grateful

Akita

Hi Akita!

Many thanks for your posts. Let's try to answer your questions:

Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control.


Do you mean as cognitive functions? Do you mean as experiences? Or both? Or do you mean something else altogether?

Describe them as experience.
If you want to write something about how the illusion of a 'chooser', 'controller' etc occurs (remember we looked at this area some while ago), please include that too.

When you ask:

What makes things happen?


1). Are you implying cause and effect?
2). What sort of things are you referring to? things outside, like life-making things? things inside, like the story told about something?
3). Is it about choosing one of the cognitive functions as cause?

Just take an ordinary example of something happening, from DE (remember the 'raise one of your arms..or not' exercise? ..can you actually see what makes whichever arm raise?) Another good way of exploring this is to go for a walk without any particular route in mind. What actually happens when "you" apparently "decide" which roads, paths or whatever to turn down?

When you ask?

How does it work?


Once a decision has been made (about what makes things happen), are you asking for a description of the process?

Yes, look in DE and describe the process you see.

When you ask?

What are you responsible for?


It is a puzzling question... because the immediate answer is: 'of everything...'

It is puzzling because the question will lead me to say 'I' am responsible for... yet there is no 'I'...! Whom is responsible from actions and its consequences? ... How does a sense of responsibility arises when there is no 'I'? Whom or what takes moral decisions? Whom or what makes moral choices? ---

Morality, Ethics... responsibility and transgression are interesting topics implicit in your question... would you agree?

Yes, some big questions here! How does this stuff work if there is no 'I'?

I am not asking you to have every mystery solved! Again, the most important thing is to be willing to look in DE and describe what you can see - and perhaps what you can't see.

Clue: I have found the Buddhist teaching (I think from Nagarjuna?) of the 'two truths' - relative truth and absolute truth - a helpful framework in this area.

Lots to explore on your retreat!

Enjoy!

With love, Hare

Hola Hare:
Thanks your you prompt reply! As you say, lots to reflect ... I'm taking some of this on to retreat... Especially the experience bit... I may decline the temptation to take Nagarjuna on to the retreat; it could be a powerful distractor... ;) Let's see -literal y speaking!

Akita


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

No don't worry about Nargarjuna!

DE is 'king'!

x H

Hi there...

Still away... yet with a bit of time to give a go to some of the points made last post...

About how things happen... Noticing that some things just seem to happen in automatic pilot -no-one commanding the plane, so to speak! the weird thing is that 'I' know what to do, when doing something. for example, I was chopping a bit piece of cheese for a meal and wasn't aware of a decision made as to how to do it...

then... who decide how to do it? Not aware of an entity deciding anything... yet things happen...

Some other things happen because a decision has been made... For example, going to see a friend (later on), to accomplish that, there is a need to be aware of time and act accordingly around other activities...

Decisions have to be made, that's life, isn't... humans are wired to move around and have an awareness and consciousness, or whatever to figure out how the world works... how does that awareness/consciousness functions, is still a mystery... but it is a fantastic thing that emerges when it is needed...

Even though there is awareness of decisions (to do something) and the way these would be carried out (choices) ... there is no awareness of a 'decision-maker' a 'doer'...

To be continued


Akita

Hi Akita,

All good! Looking forward to hearing more,

:-) H

Hi Akita,

Did you want to explore Q5 further?

And...anything to add?

X H

Yes.. Fishing the answer... Being away ... Will send in the next couple of hours. Akita


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Hi Hare good morning,

Still away from home (what is home, but the place where there is an act of presence), would like to continue whilst on the road...

Did you want to explore Q5 further?

And...anything to add?

Q5 with its various bits has kept me looking and reflecting. Since you asked it has had a continuous unsettling effect. Here is a long exploration of the above question... apologies because it is a bit long...

Life as I live it now is full of things to do, to accomplish, to create, demands to respond to... It is a life mostly lived to respond ... To be out there... To be "there" for others, as it were. It is a life where in the last couple of years, there has been less and less of "me" and more and more of others".

Yet, that being "out there for others" and being "less and less of me", has a different flavour from that of the enquiry started with you a couple of months ago. Even though it could be easy to say, that the "being out there for others" is happening because of an insight into the nature of love and compassion, it is not quite the case. There is a sense that it has been more a reaction to loneliness and pain; a not wanting to be "one with suffering" -to live it as DE.

On the bright side however, there is also a sense that the same "being out there for others", started as an imperative to connect with life in the face of death -the death of significant people. In the lapse of two years I've lost four very important people -two were more important/ significant than the other two. Those people, I realised, provided strong connections to life and all what is dear, loved and appreciated. It was like losing the bond that makes one believe and experience what is beautiful, loved and unconditional in life. Besides, in the last seven, I have lost country, home and work situation -the last two, several times. These things make for solidity (not in the sense of solid, fixed kind of self), structure and a sense of being grounded. All in all, this person, I call me, started this enquiry quite homeless, settling into a new city and work situation and kind of creating connecting-to-life-bonds.

The experience of death was/is one of disconnecting from what seems to bring life to life. It was/is a terrible/beautiful experience. Even though it helped me to touch the void, which in itself is not a bad thing; it also made me realise that other than those connecting bonds, there is hardly any bond quite like that in my life. That in itself is a daily painful experience. From that place, it is possible to appreciate why there has been like an expedition to "out there" in search of connecting bonds.

The findings of this expedition, strongly suggest that a bond comes about during an encounter in present time. For a bond to emerge or to be felt, one needs to be present, needs to be within and without, aware of what's happening inside, and aware, as much as possible, of what is happening with others; aware of the situation as it unfolds moment-to-moment.

What does it has to do with Q5?

It has all to do with it… How a decision was made? When after the death of a loved one, did ‘I’ decide to ‘go out there’ to be ‘there for others’… I don’t remember haven’t made any conscious choice. I just felt something really strong, in the chest, in the belly, in the heart, in the guts, that acted as a kind of fuel that moved ‘me’ in the direction ‘to form new connecting-to-life bonds.” The experience is remembered as DE… no much thinking… just a constant ‘let’s see to where does this road would take me?’ It wasn’t something capricious or impulsive… it was something deeply felt, deeply experienced, a kind of knowing of what needed to be done… what needed to be done? What needed and is still needed is the capacity to live life fully and knowingly from the depths, with awareness and without much reasoning… slowly, lovingly, compassionately feeling and sensing each step … experiencing life profoundly, to the bone marrow.

This way of ‘moving’ about life marked a shift in the way things were seen, lived, thought about and experienced. There was something rather powerful moving under the surface, something suggesting that life as lived until then, had finished and wasn’t worth living in that way, anyway!

Even though no conscious choices (in the usual way they are conceived) have been made, the whole process has felt consciously responsible… really, honestly, there is no awareness of someone choosing, just of feeling, sensing, listening, seeing… and in an intuitive, organic kind of way moving about life…

That’s how it has been experienced in the last couple of years… there is a sense that all this enquiry has clarified the above mentioned process. Further, it has enhanced the process as a DE... because that’s how life is still being experienced day-in and day-out… new and refreshing ways of being and relating… powerful learning about life and attachment and loss… the learning has been ‘nothing to be attached to’ ‘nothing to lose’… and yet, there was that strong experience in the body… an experience of the end of a bond… a deep and nurturing bond… a life-giving sort of a bond…

Much has already been written, so let’s leave it here… for the time being…

Thanks for reading … all this reflecting sprung from Q5


thanks for reading -

Namasté - Akita

Thanks Akita.

It's late here; no time to respond right now. Will do so tomorrow.

In the meantime - if you get to it - maybe good to come from experience right now:

Anything to add?

x H

Hi again,

Thanks for sharing these experiences and reflections arising from Q5. Am interested to hear your response to Q6, so..

Anything to add?

:-) H