Would love a Guide to help me see the Truth

[Julia]

Hi John,

I'm puzzled by your statement that "the body and the thoughts are all there is." Where did that come from in direct experience? Let's go back to bare description. After pointing to wall, floor, foot, leg, etc., point at your face. What is the appearance of "what" you are pointing toward? What color is it (based on direct experience...not on your memory)? What shape? What size? Base your answer solely on visual experience. Some people dismiss this experiment as trivial, but I never fail to get blown away by it. So how do you make the leap from there to "the body and the thoughts are all there is."? Don't mean to be picky, but I'm trying to point to the difference between raw experience (in this case, visual) with conclusions that thinking draws from the experience

When doing this exercise again, I don't know what am pointing towards really. Can't see the colour, shape or size of the face. Just assumed that the body/thoughts are all there is, there isn't this separate self we are led to believe is there.

What are the "few choices" that you make? More importantly, who makes them? Can you point to the chooser and doer? The whole issue of no choice and no deliberate action can be very subtle. Once again, it all gets down to direct experience. Thought concludes that we choose and we act, but there is no direct evidence for it. Don't just take my word for it, though. Look for yourself. But don't substitute analytic thought for looking. Looking is direct. Thought is commentary. It's a useful tool for keeping the body alive, performing at a job, etc...all the practical, everyday, conventional aspects of living. But it diverts from direct experience.

John, hope you don't mind, will have to leave it there today, just can't do anymore tonight. Thanks.

KR
Julia

[sqnhoj]

Hi Julia,

When doing this exercise again, I don't know what am pointing towards really. Can't see the colour, shape or size of the face. Just assumed that the body/thoughts are all there is, there isn't this separate self we are led to believe is there.

Ha! The key word is assumed...a thought. "Don't know" is one way of expressing it, but when you say you "can't see the colour, shape, or size," you have reported truth, not assumption. As I indicated before, some people think that's trivial (obviously, we can't see our own face), but we never stop to notice that. When you say "there isn't this separate self we are led to believe is there," is that an assumption? Or is it what you really "see"?

As for the rest, responding takes time, so I don't want to put too much into a busy schedule. Please understand, though, that looking can be done on the run. Don't stop looking!!!

Take care,

John

[Julia]

Hi John,

I'm puzzled by your statement that "the body and the thoughts are all there is." Where did that come from in direct experience? Let's go back to bare description. After pointing to wall, floor, foot, leg, etc., point at your face. What is the appearance of "what" you are pointing toward? What color is it (based on direct experience...not on your memory)? What shape? What size? Base your answer solely on visual experience. Some people dismiss this experiment as trivial, but I never fail to get blown away by it. So how do you make the leap from there to "the body and the thoughts are all there is."? Don't mean to be picky, but I'm trying to point to the difference between raw experience (in this case, visual) with conclusions that thinking draws from the experience.

Have done the pointing exercise again and had the thought - what is the finger pointing at when aiming it at the upper area of the body? Physical matter that can be seen with the thought "what is this"?

What are the "few choices" that you make? More importantly, who makes them? Can you point to the chooser and doer? The whole issue of no choice and no deliberate action can be very subtle. Once again, it all gets down to direct experience. Thought concludes that we choose and we act, but there is no direct evidence for it. Don't just take my word for it, though. Look for yourself. But don't substitute analytic thought for looking. Looking is direct. Thought is commentary. It's a useful tool for keeping the body alive, performing at a job, etc...all the practical, everyday, conventional aspects of living. But it diverts from direct experience.

Are you saying that the "few choices" are made by the "self"? This doesn't feel right. We know the body looks after everything for its survival. So when making a decision, are you saying it's the "self/doer" making certain choices or decisions or is it the body's consciousness? I would like this to be simpler, feeling overwhelmed by your last email. Too complicated, making me analyse.

I must quibble. Do they really? We are told they do, but is there any direct experience of thoughts or body "choosing"? If we take a close, clear look at all that goes on, doesn't everything just happen? No discernible doer anywhere?

Can't seem to get this para. can you help me look at this by examples perhaps.

First two phrases...great! Not sure where the "SELF thing" figures in. I think you see it but are getting distracted by thinking. What self? Where? I think you intuitively know the answer to that.

I mean that I see the seeker and thinker are the imaginary, illusory self. I see that.

That belief is now crumbling and dissolving with every d.E. experience I do. What if there's nothing to evolve??? It just doesn't matter, just drop all the seeking and stress and disappointment when nothing happens.

Wonderful, isn't it? Don't be surprised if stressful experiences and thoughts of disappointment still appear sometime. (It's thought that makes experience seem stressful...except, of course, that physical pain is real (IMO). You see it clearly; I just don't want you to see "negative thoughts," which can still appear, as a setback. They are just part of the landscape. By the way, I've never had an experience of "nothing happening," have you?

I was referring to a time when I was a spiritual seeker, there was great expectation of mystical experiences and it began to feel like a long, endless road of always seeking something just out of reach (sounds familiar). There were wonderful meditative/intuitive experiences, but there was always something else to strive for. Right now though, "nothing happening" doesn't matter or seem important because life is always happening, however quiet or subtle.

Have read Ilona's blog that you sent. Wonderful! At times I can nearly see and then it slips away! Will continue to work with Ilona's blog, every day I read something in it that is different to the day before, seeming much clearer.I feel no need or interest to even look at all the spiritual books and CDs in the bookcase since working with you. It's like a drop of belief. The seek-er has dissolved. This feels like a BIG step. It also feels like a relief to let it go.

All really encouraging. A little puzzled by "I can nearly see and then it slips away!" Sounds like the work of thinking. The goal is clear seeing, not clear thinking. I really love your statement that the "seeker has dissolved." It is a big step, and now it's time for a huge leap. Other than in thought, was there ever a seeker which needed to dissolve?

No, you're right, there was never a seeker, other than in thought.

This shows a real taste of freedom and liberation. Ultimately, there can be seeing that freedom is there in the midst of stress, disappointing thoughts, whatever. All this sounds so close...many experience a sense of awe...but often mixed with a chuckle that it all is so ordinary and obvious...in plain sight, not at all hidden.

KR
Julia

[sqnhoj]

Hi Julia,

Response is clearer, though a few things to look at.

Have done the pointing exercise again and had the thought - what is the finger pointing at when aiming it at the upper area of the body? Physical matter that can be seen with the thought "what is this"?

Yes, and it was a thought. If you stick with describing experience it's direct. You should be able to look down and see a chest, so if you point at that, you are pointing at something with a color and a shape. When you aim that pointing finger in the direction where others see your face, you do not visually experience any color or shape...just clear space that fills up with whatever is present.

It might be my fault (if there was a me, of course) that you keep getting stuck in thought. My posts sometimes get too cerebral, and I apologize for that. Will keep an eye on it.

The pointing finger exercise uses the visual sense. The face touching uses the sense of touch. Don't both of them reveal there's no self inside that body...or being that body?

Are you saying that the "few choices" are made by the "self"? This doesn't feel right. We know the body looks after everything for its survival. So when making a decision, are you saying it's the "self/doer" making certain choices or decisions or is it the body's consciousness? I would like this to be simpler, feeling overwhelmed by your last email. Too complicated, making me analyse.

That's not what I meant to say, and you are correct, it does not feel right. But honing in on raw experience, is there any evidence whatsoever that either thought or the body chooses? Look at experience only. Is someone or something choosing and deciding, or do happenings just happen?

I must quibble. Do they really? We are told they do, but is there any direct experience of thoughts or body "choosing"? If we take a close, clear look at all that goes on, doesn't everything just happen? No discernible doer anywhere?

Can't seem to get this para. can you help me look at this by examples perhaps.

The "quibble" was with your previous statement that it seems like the body or thoughts sometimes choose and decide. Can you prove that with direct experience only? Is there anyone or anything choosing and deciding?

I mean that I see the seeker and thinker are the imaginary, illusory self. I see that.

Wonderful!

I was referring to a time when I was a spiritual seeker, there was great expectation of mystical experiences and it began to feel like a long, endless road of always seeking something just out of reach (sounds familiar). There were wonderful meditative/intuitive experiences, but there was always something else to strive for. Right now though, "nothing happening" doesn't matter or seem important because life is always happening, however quiet or subtle.

Sounds like "we" had similar experiences. Love your statement "life is always happening."

No, you're right, there was never a seeker, other than in thought.

Wonderful

Okay, let's investigate the reality of anything choosing or deciding. If stuff just happens, with no one or nothing to choose, how do you react to that?

Julia, you are not just inching toward clarity...you're sprinting. Go for the finish line!

John

[Julia]

Hi John,

Read your reply, great!

Will get back tomorrow evening or Wed morning as travelling all day Tues.

KR
Julia

[sqnhoj]

Julia,

Thanks. I'll look forward to your response.

John

[Julia]

Hi John,

Thanks for your encouragement! Have had some very profound thoughts about what is real, and ways in which we are conditioned to think, this morning. It's like old thinking is being stripped away, like wallpaper, to reveal more and more, a different outlook on life.

The pointing finger exercise uses the visual sense. The face touching uses the sense of touch. Don't both of them reveal there's no self inside that body...or being that body?

Totally agree, the finger pointing exercise is very powerful, very grounding, enabling d.E. to be experienced much more easily. It's a great way of searching for a "self/I/me". When finger pointing it does become clear that there is NO SELF inside or being this body. What you see is what there is in d.E.

Okay, let's investigate the reality of anything choosing or deciding. If stuff just happens, with no one or nothing to choose, how do you react to that?

How do I react to that? The reality is that the body chooses and thinks thoughts all the time. It decides everything that is right for the body to function, and carries out what is needed at the time. Thoughts come in at times like an extra focus on something that needs to be done, a focused attention. Such as looking after another who isn't in good health. We choose to do this in addition to the body looking after the body. It's from a choice/decision that's added into this life, which just seems to unfold. Especially when remembering the LU advice to STOP and ask the question, "Is there anything actually wrong right now"? This really helps bring clarity to what is real. Because it stops the thoughts from creating unhappiness, when there is nothing really wrong. It's just thoughts. How does stuff just happen? A BIG question.

Looking forward to your reply.

KR
Julia

[sqnhoj]

Hi Julia,

Have had some very profound thoughts about what is real, and ways in which we are conditioned to think, this morning. It's like old thinking is being stripped away, like wallpaper, to reveal more and more, a different outlook on life.

Julia, profound thoughts are not the goal. What do you "see" (or hear, feel, etc.) in direct experience? Although we said that "thought" is an aspect of direct experience, the focus is on the process of thought, not the content. Just the recognition, "oh, thinking is happening," without caring one iota about the content of the thought. If the thought is about how someone wronged "you," and you start to explore that, then you will get sucked into the trance of thought and lose track of the vast majority of direct experience. Thinking is a practical tool, but it's a demanding master. Also, thinking causes us to overlook the obvious.

The reality is that the body chooses and thinks thoughts all the time. It decides everything that is right for the body to function, and carries out what is needed at the time. Thoughts come in at times like an extra focus on something that needs to be done, a focused attention. Such as looking after another who isn't in good health. We choose to do this in addition to the body looking after the body. It's from a choice/decision that's added into this life, which just seems to unfold.

Just thoughts! Can any of this be directly experienced? Is there any evidence in direct experience that the body chooses or thinks thoughts? Arms move, legs move, feet move, hands do things. That can be experienced visibly. Where is the choosing? Remember...the answer must come from direct experience. Where is the choosing? Don't give an analysis or a theory. Give a precise description that comes from direct experience. I'm not trying to undermine ethical or compassionate actions. They happen...but is there a chooser that can be found?

The thinking that supports "looking" is quite simple and direct. Is there a cell phone in your pocket? Yes or no. Are those arms out there moving? Yes or no. Is there a "chooser" or a "doer" causing those arms to move? Yes or no.

How does stuff just happen? A BIG question.

A big question, indeed! What if there is no answer? What if happenings just happen? If there is no first cause, and if there is no doer, what other possibility is there? This is not a trick question, but the answer must come ONLY from direct experience.

Look and describe. Don't think, analyze, or theorize.

Thanks,

John

[Julia]

Just thoughts! Can any of this be directly experienced? Is there any evidence in direct experience that the body chooses or thinks thoughts? Arms move, legs move, feet move, hands do things. That can be experienced visibly. Where is the choosing? Remember...the answer must come from direct experience. Where is the choosing? Don't give an analysis or a theory. Give a precise description that comes from direct experience. I'm not trying to undermine ethical or compassionate actions. They happen...but is there a chooser that can be found?

Have done the finger pointing example again, when pointing at the area of the body that is seen out of, the thought appears, "there isn't a chooser". When in the d.E. zone it all just happens. It's so easy-going. When not in d.E. and focusing on something, then choosing takes place, such as where to park the car. Choices happen because they have to sometimes. There isn't a "chooser" though because that would be a separate entity and it has been proven by looking that there is no separate me/self/doer/chooser. It's like we operate on two different levels to live, one in d.E. and the other in focused living. How can I move on from this to permanent d.E. Is it possible, and still get everything done?

The thinking that supports "looking" is quite simple and direct. Is there a cell phone in your pocket? Yes or no. Are those arms out there moving? Yes or no. Is there a "chooser" or a "doer" causing those arms to move? Yes or no.

Agree, no drawn-out decisions, it's a straightforward answer/response. No "chooser/doer", only the body here.

How does stuff just happen? A BIG question.

A big question, indeed! What if there is no answer? What if happenings just happen? If there is no first cause, and if there is no doer, what other possibility is there? This is not a trick question, but the answer must come ONLY from direct experience. Look and describe. Don't think, analyze, or theorize.

I realise it's not a trick question now. Having difficulty staying in the d.E. zone today. What about day-to-day living? That doesn't just happen?

KR
Julia

[sqnhoj]

Hi Julia,

Have done the finger pointing example again, when pointing at the area of the body that is seen out of, the thought appears, "there isn't a chooser". When in the d.E. zone it all just happens. It's so easy-going. When not in d.E. and focusing on something, then choosing takes place, such as where to park the car. Choices happen because they have to sometimes. There isn't a "chooser" though because that would be a separate entity and it has been proven by looking that there is no separate me/self/doer/chooser. It's like we operate on two different levels to live, one in d.E. and the other in focused living. How can I move on from this to permanent d.E. Is it possible, and still get everything done?

Let's take this paragraph in pieces.

Have done the finger pointing example again, when pointing at the area of the body that is seen out of, the thought appears, "there isn't a chooser".

This sounds like a good start, but what happens when that thought disappears? Thoughts come and go. When everything that happens is examined dispassionately, from raw experience rather than what "you" were taught," it should be clearly evident that there is no chooser. Is it?

When in the d.E. zone it all just happens. It's so easy-going. When not in d.E. and focusing on something, then choosing takes place, such as where to park the car. Choices happen because they have to sometimes. There isn't a "chooser" though because that would be a separate entity and it has been proven by looking that there is no separate me/self/doer/chooser. It's like we operate on two different levels to live, one in d.E. and the other in focused living. How can I move on from this to permanent d.E. Is it possible, and still get everything done?

Do you see that you are still thinking about this? I wouldn't tell you to stop thinking, because you can't, but you can let go of thinking. Just let it be...whatever thinking happens is what happens. Right now, your answer is just totally lost in thought.

Why make a distinction between everyday life and direct experience? Direct experience is all there is. In fact you could call “everyday life” “everyday experience.” Who or what is choosing where to park the car? Is that what is visibly seen…or heard, or felt, etc? Tell me, where in your field of sensory experience is that chooser? Don’t tell me the story that your thoughts spin. It’s easy to live in such stories, but all that is ever experienced is the five senses, emotions, and the process of thinking.

What is this “focused living”? Can you describe it in terms of direct experience? If not, it’s just a story. It may be “conventionally” true, but it is NOT your experience. This may sound like a radical shift in perspective, but it’s actually what is always experienced. You don’t have to do anything to stay in experience…it’s all there is, and “you” are already there. (Except that there is no "you.") Lost in the content of conceptual thinking (AKA a story), direct experience is fuzzy and blurred…even though that’s still what is directly experienced.

No "chooser/doer", only the body here.

Why is there this obsession with the body? It’s just a part of direct experience. My concern is that when other guides evaluate this overall conversation, they will think that you are still considering the body as where the “self” is. The body is there in your experience, although not the same body that people see. But just as the body is there, so is air. So is the ground. So is whatever the physical environment contains. Are any of these a "self"? Why make the body special? I’m glad it’s there, but it’s just part of the “scenery” of direct experience. Don’t idolize the body.

Having difficulty staying in the d.E. zone today. What about day-to-day living? That doesn't just happen?

As previously stated, direct experience is all there is. Look objectively, and isn’t that what is seen? Why doesn’t “day-to-day living” “just happen”? Do you experience anything else? Do you experience a doer that causes day-to-day living? Let the story go. It’s a bunch of thoughts. What do you really, really see?

Look, without getting lost in conceptual thinking. You can't stop thinking, but looking can be so intent that the thinking fades into the background. Can't guarantee that, but it has happened before.

So, rule number one, Julia. I no longer want to hear what you think of all this. I want to hear what you experience. If you experience something different, describe it. Look and describe!

Thank you,

John

[Julia]

Hi John,

Just read your message. Will get back to you tonight okay. Thank you for all of this.

KR
Julia

[Julia]

Hi John,

I was out in the garden today, lovely weather, calmly looked at the grass, looked at the clouds and skyline. There was a feeling like an extra vividness to it all, and a thought, "this is different". A special moment. It's all about looking. Will continue to look as much as possible over tomorrow.

Can I get back to you on Monday morning about experiencing, John.

KR
Julia

[sqnhoj]

Julia,

Thanks for the response. After posting, was afraid that last post had come across as a little harsh. It wasn't meant that way, though I did want to be direct. Really believe that you'll find that direct experience is not mysterious or elusive if you stay with your senses. Sensory experience deeply examined without discursive analysis provides a rich world, which we too often ignore. Through it all, of course, the purpose is to continually ask if there is a self anywhere to be found. Let the sensations shape the answer in their direct simplicity. Ultimately, if not soon, all possibilities will be exhausted and the answer is clear.

And have fun with it.

Have a good weekend. Looking forward to hearing from you.

John

[Julia]

Hi John,

Thanks for the response. After posting, was afraid that last post had come across as a little harsh. It wasn't meant that way, though I did want to be direct.

It was harsh, but being a retired teacher I can imagine how frustrating it must be to read all this resistance coming up!

Really believe that you'll find that direct experience is not mysterious or elusive if you stay with your senses. Sensory experience deeply examined without discursive analysis provides a rich world, which we too often ignore. Through it all, of course, the purpose is to continually ask if there is a self anywhere to be found. Let the sensations shape the answer in their direct simplicity. Ultimately, if not soon, all possibilities will be exhausted and the answer is clear.

I feel a change in outlook since the weekend. Have looked all around for this SELF/I/me, etc. Can't see it, touch it, smell it, hear it, nothing.

Have read all the LU articles, and ought to have read all of this before asking for a Guide. This would be good advice for all newcomers to do before taking up the time of LU Guides. It has helped to stop me looking at the body as the hub of it all. It is just A body, just thoughts - not to be drawn into the stories. Just looking and keep looking, the times you have said this to me! Am looking much more deeply at everything. Getting more used to looking. Remembering not to forget to LOOK, that's it to getting through. Will keep reading the LU articles because each time they become clearer.

And have fun with it.

Have been taking it too seriously. Am feeling fired up about it all. Thank you (if there was a you).

KR
Julia

[sqnhoj]

Julia,

Hi and wow!!! Enjoyed this post. If you started this process with absolutely no exposure to any of the LU articles, can see how the emphasis could be confusing.

Let me probe in a slightly different direction. Forgive me if this is old ground. Thoughts happen...or better thinking happens. Is there a you thinking thoughts? Can you choose a thought or think it. Examine your direct experience and give examples for your response.

Many thanks!!!!!!!

John