The Gate

What do you mean with "...to make thoughts happen"? I am not sure if I understand it correctly.

I mean; are you the thinker of the thoughts?

There is a sense of "I am thinking". For example, there are several issues at my work and "I am thinking" how to solve them - what to do, how to do, who to contact, imagine the ideal solution and so on. There is a feeling/sensation of the doer who is doing something.

Is there a sense that I am thinking? or is there a thought that says "i am thinking" followed by the unquestioned habit that there is a you doing the thinking?

So how do you think thoughts? Can you describe how you do that?

Are you able to choose which thoughts to have? Do you control imagination? Or does it just happen on its own?

Just LOOK! Whatch thoughts happen and ask the questions, then look again. A thought pops up, did you think it? or did it just happen? Did you choose to think that thought?

Think of a reflection over the surface of a lake. Does the lake choose to make the reflection happen? No. But it still happens!

Can you find a thinker separate from the thoughts?

At this moment I am not able to accept that everything is happening spontaneously. If it was true, it would mean that there is nothing to do and I could put an end to all. ...or I could do everything what I want, to be rude, arogant, agressive... and say that I am not responsible for that. The only responsible is life itself, I am not, let me be. You know what I mean?

If there is no you, how can "you" put an end to anything. Life doesn't stop life-ing, just because there isn't a separate you making it happen. There has NEVER been a separate you. It's an illusion. And yet things get done all the same. Work gets done, decisions get made, food gets eaten, thoughts happen, friendship, love, anger, joy... all these have always happened without a separate you in charge. Do you think they will stop happening just because the illusion disappears?

If you stop believing in a separate god that choses when it rains, does that stop the rain from happening?

Go for a walk and watch the trees, the clouds, the rain, the wind, the flowers, the birds... is there someone in control of any of it? Do you think there is a tree entity in control of the tree-ing or is the tree just another expression of life happening on its effortlessly?

Apart from the thought "I am" , is there any difference between you and all that's happening perfectly on its own around you?

or I could do everything what I want, to be rude, arogant, agressive... and say that I am not responsible for that.

Ha, ha, ha! :-) So these things don't happen because "you" prevent them from happening? Where is this you that wants to do these things? Or is there just a wanting, a desire, to be rude or agressive sometimes? Can you also find a desire to be loving and polite? Which is the real "you" then???

Are you making any of it happen? or are this impulses like the waves in the sea? They come and go, with no-one doing them?

If there has never been a you in control, what will lose control?

At this moment I am not able to accept that everything is happening spontaneously.

That's fine. We can leave things here for now if you want. When you feel ready to come back and really LOOK let me know and we'll pick things up.

Love xx

Hi Silvia,

just letting you know that I am still here and going through the questions...

Peter

Good! :-)

Don't worry too much about answering every question litterally . Use the questions as pointers when you look into your experience, then write about comes up.

Hi Silvia,

...I have gone through the questions today and the result is a headache:-) I'm kidding. Today I have beeing on vacation the whole day and doing nothing only relax, sleeping, watching TV... I tried to LOOK but it seems it did not work really.

I experience that thoughts come and go, images happen. It is obvious the most to me when I fall asleep and images with a story begins to be seen. It is not a dream because I am still awake. It is like a halucination with eyes closed. Also during the day I experience that some thoughts just pop up from nowhere. I am not able to choose which thoughts should pop up or something like that. Thinker is not found, or I do not know how a "thinker" looks like in order to compare it to my experience. ...regardless of that there is still not seen that "I" is only a thought. Or maybe it is seen but it somehow does not want to be accepted.

I have downloaded the quote apps and read some quotes. For examaple like this one from Direct Experience section:

"Listen to a sound. What is hearing the sound? "I am" is simply a thought. Observe the direct experience of hearing the sound."

My experience of hearing: hearing is happening without any effort, no one does it, no inside nor outside, but there is also "I". "I" + hearing. That "I" is not tangible, has no form, shape... but I have already described that in some of the previous replies.

I do not know why, but somehow I like the idea: "If there has never been a you in control, what will lose control?"

Peter

HI Peter,

Glad you had a relaxing day yesterday.

How is it going with the quotes app? It's really good. Anything else that's come up from reading it?

Why do you think the looking didn't work? Your answers are good. It's clear that when you look you see. Seeing is a process though, the more you look, the clearer it becomes. So just keep going. Relax and trust that all the truth you need is in your direct experience already. It's a process that never ends, not even after crossing the gate, there is no limit to how deep you can go.

So you seem to see quite clearly that there is no thinker that thinks. Thoughts happen like a constant movie or like a hallucination, with no-one in control.

Some thoughts point to "real" things; like hand, computer, desk.. things that you can have some experience of outside thought.

Some thoughts like Slovakia, England, university don't point to any real thing, but are more like concepts. There is no university-thing in real life that you can touch or taste, but there are buildings and students and teachers and we agree to call all that university for convenience. The same with England or Slovakia. You agree?

Some thoughts point to things that are not real at all. Like fairies, Santa, Batman, Big Foot, unicorns... They only exist as thoughts and can only be experienced as such.

What about the thoughts of I, self what do they point to?

I experience that thoughts come and go, images happen. It is obvious the most to me when I fall asleep and images with a story begins to be seen. It is not a dream because I am still awake.

Lovely!
Now look closely at this. What is this I that falls asleep? If you fall asleep how is it possible for stories and images to continue happening? Is it you that falls asleep or the thought of you that disappears for a bit?

And if so, then, what remains aware? Is there anything other than awareness? Does the awareness need an I to keep it happening?

Also during the day I experience that some thoughts just pop up from nowhere.

Can you find any thoughts that don't pop up from nowhere? Are there some thoughts you have control over? What are they?

Love x
Silvia

Can you find any thoughts that don't pop up from nowhere? Are there some thoughts you have control over? What are they?

...I meant speaking. It seems so real that someone is doing the speaking - saying words, sentences in order to express ideas, opinions..., like I am doing right now while typing these words.

Hi Peter,

Speaking and writing happens. Can you find a separate self doing them? The process is quite real, but like with thoughts, do you chose which words come out of your mouth or writing? Can you find the moment when the decision is made on what to say and how to say it?

Just watch how speaking or writing happens. Try to describe the process.

What about the rest of the questions on my last post?

Silvia x

Hi, hi Silvia,

here you the answers:

How is it going with the quotes app? It's really good. Anything else that's come up from reading it?

It is going well. Every day I read some of them. Now I am reading quotes from Labeling and Language section. I like them.

Why do you think the looking didn't work?

Last 3-4 days I experience like I am living in thoughts, like dreaming. It is hard to describe it. For example I see that nothing can bring fulfillment. If it brings, it is only temporary. Everything is so changeable. Or things about my job are questioned. Carreer, being a part of a big great company, making a better future are only illussions, thoughts, stories. It is all only in the head. The point of view can be changed so the stories will change. Also there is an idea if everything really happens by its own way. ...it is a fear about losing control. I know you wrote that there were never a „me“ to control something, there is nothing to be controlled... I know, but that idea is still present.

What about the thoughts of I, self what do they point to?

Big question:-) My first answer was: „...they point to the body, mind and all actions, experience that happen through the body“, but later it came up that they point to nothing – to nothing that is tangible.

What is this I that falls asleep? If you fall asleep how is it possible for stories and images to continue happening? Is it you that falls asleep or the thought of you that disappears for a bit?

Recently I had that experience again. It was lying in the bath and a bit falling asleep. It was like going from „I am lying in the bath“ story to a new one. It was watched and later something brought it back to „I am lying in the bath“. It was like to get noticed that the second story was only thoughts, images...a dream.

And if so, then, what remains aware? Is there anything other than awareness? Does the awareness need an I to keep it happening?

Everything was experienced with no one doing it. It seems that awareness does nota n „I“ to keep it happening. It seems that I is included in awareness it does not make it to happen. In other worlds being aware of „I“ happens because of awareness happens.

Can you find a separate self doing them [note: speaking, writing]? The process is quite real, but like with thoughts, do you chose which words come out of your mouth or writing? Can you find the moment when the decision is made on what to say and how to say it?

No. Speaking and writing happens spontaneously. There is still „I“ that claims but it is OK. Not disturbing.

Peter

Hello Peter!

Ah, good answers :) I see nothing wrong with your looking :)

It's clear that things are shifting for you. You're becoming more aware of the nature of thoughts and stories and also the impermanence of it all.

This is a good sign but it can be disorienting to start questioning all those ideas that you took for granted before. When in doubt just go back to the ever-present direct experience of everything and just rest there. Watching everything come and go, like when you're by the sea watching the waves come and go or the clouds in the sky. Whatever needs to get done, will still get done.

Big question:-) My first answer was: „...they point to the body, mind and all actions, experience that happen through the body“, but later it came up that they point to nothing – to nothing that is tangible.

What if both answers were "true"?

If we think of the name Peter as Slovakia, well then it does point to a body and a mind and actions and experiences, does it not? So we can say that Peter in that sense is "real". Just like there is a place called Slovakia, with people and cities and a piece of land. That Peter is undeniable. Do you agree?

But if we take Peter to mean the controller of the body and the mind, the do-er of the actions, the witness, the experiencer, thinker of the thoughts and also the memories and the stories built around that character, then that Peter doesn't exist. In this case Peter = Santa = Batman = unicorns = fantasy. Is a figment of imagination. Do you agree? Don't think about it. Look into your direct experience and see if you can find that Peter-character, anywhere other than in thought/imagination.

It's an assumtion! One you have been taught to believe in.

No. Speaking and writing happens spontaneously. There is still „I“ that claims but it is OK. Not disturbing.

Ok, so let's look at this I that claims the actions.
Consider this carefully; in your experience is, "I am" anything other than a thought?
now
Does this thought think "I am"? Can thoughts think?


Now do this exercise, which you may have come accross already in the quotes app. It's a great exercise even if it seems a bit silly.

Close your eyes and imagine that you are holding a water-melon. Imagine the weight of it in your hands, the texture, the colour, the smell. Imagine it in as much detail as possible. Now imagine yourself going about your day carrying this big watermelon around. Imagine you cannot put it down. Imagine how uncomfortable it would be, how it would get in the way of getting things down, how heavy it would be at the end of the day.
How do you get rid of this imaginary watermelon Peter? Open your eyes. Where is the watermelon gone? How did you get rid of it?

Now close your eyes again and do the same with this separate self, this I, you imagine to be. How it feels like, where in the body you can feel it. visualise it in detail, and imagine how you go about your day carrying this imaginary self around. Everything that gets done, it's followed by the thought I did that. Everything that doesn't get done, "I didn't do that". Praise, pride, guilt, low self -steem... gee isn't it a heavy weight to carry around?
Now open your eyes, where is this imaginary self? How do you get rid of something that is imaginary?

Love x

Hi Silvia, I will reply tomorrow. Peter

Hi Silvia,

I agree that Peter as a label is undeniable. I also tried to find the Peter - character but it always begun and finished in thoughts. For example, it said: "Look at this body, this is you!" but the truth was I saw a part of a body and experienced the "it is me" labeling as a voice in the head.

Consider this carefully; in your experience is, "I am" anything other than a thought?
now
Does this thought think "I am"? Can thoughts think?

With that above I have problem. "I am" is still not seen as it is only a thought. With that "I am" is going to be crazy. I have noticed that the whole day during my work today it was about "I am". These thoughts came up: "Do I have to send this e-mail? What if she will think I am stupid."; "...OMG, I am confused"; "I must be wrong."; "Should I ask her something? - what if she will see I have no clue, what she wants from me"; "Was my reply on the e-mail OK or rude, Was I polite enough?"; "Perhaps they will think that I do not know what I do at all"; "I am not able to get that done. Is it to much, or only am I lazy?";"Only 2 hours left to end of my business day"; "I will do that tomorrow, now I have no energy for that."; "OMG, so many things I need to get done."; "...what if they will notice that my performance is weak and I will get fired."; "They are stupid..."; "They want high performance but they are not interesting in how I feel." ...these thoughts are quite repeating each day. Perhaps words are different each day, but the content seems to be quite same.

Everything seems to all around "I", "me". I wake up with "I am" thoughts in the morning and going to bed with them as well at night. I see I am living in a protect enviroment. I stay most of the time at home, browsing internet, watching TV, doing some body workouts. It is comfortable, safe. I go shopping or meet people when it is really necessary. Also if it is possible I work from home. I go to office when it is really needed.

I try to see that "I am" is only a thought, but it does not work. I did the water-melon as well as the "self" test, but no change. During doing the "water-melon" test I already knew it was only an imagination. With the "self" test it was like the same imagination that usually happens when it is imagine what I will do in the evening, how the meeting tomorrow will look like and so on.

Now I really do not know what to do.

Peter

Dear Peter,

Now I really do not know what to do.

There is nothing to do. Just stop. Breath. Close your eyes be with the sensations. There is nothing to fix. Nothing to do. All is fine. Whatever tension, or pain, or fear or anxiety is present in your experience, let them be. They are doing their job. They are trying to protect, defend take care of you. Say Thank You to them. Even if it sounds silly.

Now, when I say to you Just stop, or listen, or look, or when someone at work says, pay attention, or when you think, I should go out more often. Is there an almost immediate tightening somewhere in your body?

Is it possible that you are mistaking this tightening, this feeling in the body for the self?

Love x

Now, when I say to you Just stop, or listen, or look, or when someone at work says, pay attention, or when you think, I should go out more often. Is there an almost immediate tightening somewhere in your body?

Is it possible that you are mistaking this tightening, this feeling in the body for the self?

What do you mean with tightening?

Whatever feeling or sensation, that presents in the body whenever there is an I thought or whenever you are asked to do anything.

For example if I say LOOK!. Do you experience a sort of tension around the eyes or face?
If I say LISTEN! do you experience a sort of tension around the ears or head?
When you think I need to do this or that, is there any accompanying sensation in the body happening almost immediately after the thought?

No. There is not that sensation or I do not notice it.