Why wait longer?

[hannamaria]

Feels like I’ve been looking where I should be looking more than ever before today. Looking at the one looking…I won’t reach the kind of mental understanding that I can imagine the understanding to be like. I won’t reach anywhere…

There seems to be expected outcomes, imagination clouding the seeing needed. I can stop myself at any moment confirming a sens of there being an I. Like I’ve located the centre of the illusion but can’t quite see behind it.

Need to stop imagening. Don’t know what I need or not…

[richardcooper2k]

Why do I let other things catch my attention? Doesn't matter. Just need the right focus right?
Reading Gateless gatecrashers again opens up something.

Not knowing is more present. No voice is my voice. All just thoughts.

Nicely put.

Feels like I’ve been looking where I should be looking more than ever before today

Cool, is there anywhere else to look ?

Looking at the one looking…I won’t reach the kind of mental understanding that I can imagine the understanding to be like. I won’t reach anywhere…

Can you find what is looking ?
Right, mental understanding/imagination can never see this.
Are they are a part of experience, or is experience a part of them ?

There seems to be expected outcomes, imagination clouding the seeing needed. I can stop myself at any moment confirming a sens of there being an I. Like I’ve located the centre of the illusion but can’t quite see behind it.

Good description of the illusion. It is normal things don't seem clear at first. You are right, about expectations. Can you pin down this sense of there being an I and get a closer look ?
Is there anything behind or is this it ?
You can see all you need to, all there is, just notice what is already here.

Need to stop imagining. Don’t know what I need or not…

Are you imagining or are thoughts happening/appearing ?
Is there anything else needed ?

[hannamaria]

Look at what’s looking seems to be key here. I’ll post more thoroughly tonight!

[richardcooper2k]

Exactly :-)
And not getting into stories about it

[hannamaria]

”Can you find what is looking?”
I cannot find what is looking. I end up in a seeing of thoughts and attention. What is this attention?

”Right, mental understanding/imagination can never see this.
Are they are a part of experience, or is experience a part of them ?”
I can’t say if mental understanding/imagination is part of experience or that experience is a part of mental understanding. I cannot say how experience works.

”Can you pin down this sense of there being an I and get a closer look ?
Is there anything behind or is this it ?”

Again I end up with this attention. Thoughts entering it. Can’t find anything behind it.

A lot of bodily sensations while sitting today. Pressure on the top of the head.

So, is this attention consciousness and consciousness needs to see itself as that and nothing else? Where does this question come from though?

There's a lot of confusion but still an I here.

[richardcooper2k]

”Can you find what is looking?”
I cannot find what is looking. I end up in a seeing of thoughts and attention. What is this attention?

A good question to ask - keep looking/feeling
Where are what is seen, heard, tasted, smelled and felt in relation to this attention ?
Are the in it, or with it ?, Just experiencing it all as it is
Is there anything outside of this attention ?

So, is this attention consciousness and consciousness needs to see itself as that and nothing else?

Is there anything to see itself, or just seeing ?

There's a lot of confusion but still an I here

This can feel disorientating as we are used to relying on thought
Question is, can this "I" be found anywhere outside thought ?
If thoughts come and go, is there a self that exists continually ?
Where is it ?

[hannamaria]

Hi Richard!

I've not had time to look with your latest questions but will reply as soon as I have, probably tonight.

Thank you!

[hannamaria]

I’ve not had the possibility to deeply look in to this but what I’d say now is that the attention disappears into what’s being heard, seen, thought. The sens of self seems to be when this attention gets absorbed into a stream of thinking that by habit is believed to be a ”voice” of this ”I”. My voice. But in fact this is a chain of thoughts, often containing the word ”I” which aren’t put together by a someone.

Yes there’s definitely a sens of disorientation when this "voice"/thoughts are doubted and when no other clarity has been found yet. It’s exciting to!

I will respond to your questions more thoroughly tomorrow!

[richardcooper2k]

I’ve not had the possibility to deeply look in to this but what I’d say now is that the attention disappears into what’s being heard, seen, thought. The sens of self seems to be when this attention gets absorbed into a stream of thinking that by habit is believed to be a ”voice” of this ”I”. My voice. But in fact this is a chain of thoughts, often containing the word ”I” which aren’t put together by a someone.

Yes there’s definitely a sens of disorientation when this "voice"/thoughts are doubted and when no other clarity has been found yet. It’s exciting to!

Lovely description Hanna

Are there any sensations in the body which get labeled as "me" ?

So you are noticing how to look. Like you say, when attention or the light of awareness shifts to what's been heard, seen, thought instead of being caught up in streams of thinking.
It seems to me its more about faith/confidence/trust in something other than thought. Something much deeper and closer to home. What is your sense of this ?

[hannamaria]

”Are there any sensations in the body that gets labelled as ”me”?”
I can’t say but there’s been a strong buzzing in the chest these last days during meditation and other occasions.

”It seems to me its more about faith/confidence/trust in something other than thought. Something much deeper and closer to home. What is your sense of this ?”
Can’t say what my sens of this is…feels a bit like you’re saying that I know what I am and need to trust that knowing. But it’s not evident to me. Is that because I still believe there to be a real ”me”?

Feels like I’m slipping in an out of trusting/listening/believing in thoughts to be me/mine.

There is hope, hesitation, excitement, confusion, different sensations in the body, looking at the computer screen, thoughts about what to write next…

[richardcooper2k]

”Are there any sensations in the body that gets labelled as ”me”?”
I can’t say but there’s been a strong buzzing in the chest these last days during meditation and other occasions.

Interesting. Keep noticing these things coming up. What meditation do you do ?

”It seems to me its more about faith/confidence/trust in something other than thought. Something much deeper and closer to home. What is your sense of this ?”
Can’t say what my sens of this is…feels a bit like you’re saying that I know what I am and need to trust that knowing. But it’s not evident to me. Is that because I still believe there to be a real ”me”?

I guess i mean more like heart knowledge, feeling it in your bones as opposed to intellectual understanding or belief. What seems most real in experience ? What doesn't go away when you stop believing in it ?

Feels like I’m slipping in an out of trusting/listening/believing in thoughts to be me/mine.

Just notice that as one of the things that's going on.

There is hope, hesitation, excitement, confusion, different sensations in the body, looking at the computer screen, thoughts about what to write next…

What is experiencing these sensations ?

[hannamaria]

”What meditation do you do?”
I just sit down and close my eyes. Just simplifies focusing.

”What seems most real in experience?”
I can’t say what seems most real, everything. What’s seen, heard, sensed physically with the body, thoughts.

”What doesn’t go away when you stop believing in it?”
Nothing has gone away…

"What is experiencing these sensations?”
I keep looking at what’s looking and end up in just having this attention close, like behind my eyelids not touching anything for brief moments. Felt different while sitting tonight though. There were waves of intense nowness where sensations and sounds felt more, closer, more direct than before. I guess that’s the direct experience. As I stop writing now it’s the same intenseness.

This feels like a game where I am to trick myself into realizing something I already know. I don’t know how honest I’m being either, without knowing what I’m being dishonest about. Might be completely irrelevant.

What I expect at the moment:
For there to come a clear moment where the nature of my existence is seen in a way that doesn’t involve thoughts. Asking for a lot?

What feels true in this moment:
”I” only excists as thought, it’s a word that has strings to a million other thoughts that cling togehter in a constant storytelling in my brain. This storytelling is lesser than what’s actually going on somehow.

Feels like I’m making things hard. It’s simple right? I’m just a part of everything, without a separate controlling unit inside. The storytelling is just that, outside of the story things are just going on. I’m just ”going on”.

Sorry for this blabbering Richard!

Thanks for your and your preceders immense patience!

[hannamaria]

Hi Richard!

Can’t see what I’m to do? What decides when this will be done? So you can tell if these words are coming from a body with a mind that has not yet realized itself to be…that’s where words fail me. What in me experiences all? Even the imagined ”I”? What is living in illusion? I feel trapped by words, and all the descriptions from people in Gateless gatecrashers and other words from other people run around in my head. But what does that mean: ”run around in my head”? Does that way of expression prove that the illusion’s still strong and is this just thoughts after thoughts written down not bringing whatever it is that’s experiencing the thoughts closer to selfrealization…

There’s a lot of confusion and a strong sens of self right now…but what sees that?

It’s like I’m both closer and further away from ending this than ever before. But that’s just a thought right?

Please let me know if I'm to write less, slow down, whatever you think is best! Thanks again!

[richardcooper2k]

”What seems most real in experience?”
I can’t say what seems most real, everything. What’s seen, heard, sensed physically with the body, thoughts.

”What doesn’t go away when you stop believing in it?”
Nothing has gone away…

What about the content of thought ? What about the story of Hanna ? Where is she if she isn't the body ?

"What is experiencing these sensations?”
I keep looking at what’s looking and end up in just having this attention close, like behind my eyelids not touching anything for brief moments. Felt different while sitting tonight though. There were waves of intense nowness where sensations and sounds felt more, closer, more direct than before. I guess that’s the direct experience. As I stop writing now it’s the same intenseness.

OK, good. Sounds lke you are describing more sensations. Is there an experiencer ?

This feels like a game where I am to trick myself into realizing something I already know. I don’t know how honest I’m being either, without knowing what I’m being dishonest about. Might be completely irrelevant.

What I expect at the moment:
For there to come a clear moment where the nature of my existence is seen in a way that doesn’t involve thoughts. Asking for a lot?

What feels true in this moment:
”I” only excists as thought, it’s a word that has strings to a million other thoughts that cling togehter in a constant storytelling in my brain. This storytelling is lesser than what’s actually going on somehow.

Feels like I’m making things hard. It’s simple right? I’m just a part of everything, without a separate controlling unit inside. The storytelling is just that, outside of the story things are just going on. I’m just ”going on”.

No tricks; just seeing/feeling what is there other than seen, heard, tasted, smelled, touched, felt, thought.
That's right, I is a thought, the truth can't be found in thought, no separate controller inside the body, just this......

[richardcooper2k]

Can’t see what I’m to do? What decides when this will be done?

What could do something or decide ?

What in me experiences all?

Good question. Where are you ?

Even the imagined ”I”? What is living in illusion?

Can you find something ?

There’s a lot of confusion and a strong sens of self right now…but what sees that?

Good question again, what experiences these thoughts, confusion,etc ?

Please let me know if I'm to write less, slow down, whatever you think is best! Thanks again!

Just keep answering the questions and looking. Notice and report back what comes up. We are not trying to stop thoughts about "I" happening; we just want to see the thought label "I" does not point to anything that can be found in experience.