Would someone be willing to guide me please?

[Matt13]

Yes, this is it. Often there aren't any fireworks and many people doubt their new knowing because it is really that simple. But I want to check this reflexive you that still has doubts. Tell me what it is?

I’ve been finding it difficult to compose a reply to this one. I think it’s because I go about my daily life and for long periods I’m focused on that and not on this inquiry. Then, I start thinking about this, about this inquiry into the self, and I feel that I have somehow failed, or not seen through the illusion, because it hasn’t been ever-present.

I also want to know how you really feel? Bare your soul.

I feel flat, to be honest. At times I doubt that I get it. At other times I realise that emotions and events are just happening, and they are felt but not taken personally. At those times I think, is this it? Is this what Sunil means? Then I think, is that all there is? Because I am discovering that I expected some kind of change in my experience. People talk in such glowing terms of seeing through the illusion it’s hard to drop the idea, hard to accept that it could be mundane. It’s like there are two deeply ingrained beliefs to conquer - belief in the self and belief that seeing through the self will be an explosion of wonderment.

Matt

[kvotski]

I feel flat, to be honest. At times I doubt that I get it. At other times I realise that emotions and events are just happening, and they are felt but not taken personally. At those times I think, is this it? Is this what Sunil means? Then I think, is that all there is? Because I am discovering that I expected some kind of change in my experience. People talk in such glowing terms of seeing through the illusion it’s hard to drop the idea, hard to accept that it could be mundane. It’s like there are two deeply ingrained beliefs to conquer - belief in the self and belief that seeing through the self will be an explosion of wonderment.

Yes what you get is all and exactly what Sunil means. No more, Matt. I can't show you anything more.

I would recommend you watch a few you tube videos by Adyashanti, I will get some references for you. You are not alone, an army of us have been let down for it not having the fireworks. Some talk of enlightenment in glowing terms but can you quote me buddha or jesus or Krshna or Nisargdatta or Ramana or Papaji, all known great masters They dont, becuase they know even if you did have such an experience thats not it. Bland is it, Matt.

It is really really hard to accept particualrly since most of us come to this search out of some sort of suffering and want something wild like a spiritual orgasm. But just think about it, all such orgies can only be experienced by the body and you are not the body. Even if you did have a wild one, by the very nature of the body, it will be temporary.

[kvotski]

Thanks Stuart!

"There is no need of a way out of the dream! Don’t you see that a way out is also a part of the dream? All you have to do is see the dream as dream. The very idea of going beyond the dream is illusory. Why go anywhere? Just realize that you are dreaming a dream you call the world, and stop looking for ways out. The problem is not the dream. Your problem is that you like one part of your dream and not another.
Love all, or none of it, and stop complaining. When you have seen the dream as a dream, you have done all that needs be done."
~ Nisargadatta Maharaj

[kvotski]

Not Stuart, Matt! Hahaha.

Here is one from adyashanti,


Check out this video on YouTube:

http://youtu.be/jLQD90Las5c

[Matt13]

Hi Sunil,

I watched the Adyashanti video and yes, I can see what you and he are saying. It's still a bit like opening a present to find the box is empty, but it makes me smile. There seems to be an industry out there peddling this stuff and there's nothing to peddle. Not everyone of course, I deeply appreciate the efforts you and the others put in here on LU for no material return, and I am truly grateful you have been putting in the time with me.

Watching the video did bring another question to mind. The first half covers the point you were making, that this is not fireworks necessarily. Then he goes on to talk about everything being one, and again that phrase carries a hint of the mystical. With my new, mundane, point of view on what enlightenment is, I interpret all being one as simply stuff happens. When there is no self to claim ownership thoughts just happen, body just happens, tree happens, things happen, and therefore it can all be seen as one mass of stuff happening. I still see the body as being a physically separate object to the tree outside the window - what make them one is that they are both just stuff happening, not 'me' and something outside me. Is that right? If not I'm missing the point somewhere.

Matt

[kvotski]

No, Matt. You are missing nothing. It is all the same stuff, trees and all. There is just no self to claim ownership or make stories about them. Does this imply the body will never have some crazy oneness experience? Hope not, could use some of that here too. It is simply that neither you nor I can be there.

Be happy to answer any other doubts you may have.

[Matt13]

Hi Sunil,

Sorry for the few days silence. I've been digesting this, and trying to formulate my doubts, but I find those that arise I can answer just by looking. I think the last doubt that remains is an over-arching feeling that it can't be this easy. I must somehow be wrong because enlightenment is amazing and, although I've felt relaxed and 'at home' the last few days, I wouldn't describe my current experience as amazing.

If I an getting it, is it permanent? Or will I re-learn the same conditioning that have me the thought of self in the first place?

Matt

[kvotski]

Knowledge that self is an illusion is permanent. Once you know a magician's card trick, can he fool you again? Would you ever suffer again? Yes, but what will help you now more than anything is this permanent understanding.

I found guiding others to see the truth keeps reminding me of the truth and takes me deeper with new insights as you may have seen on my blog. If you like to become a guide I would be happy to put the final questions to you and have three guides confirm or initiate new disussions with you. If not, this thread is open and you can come back and chat anytime.

People have been known to laugh for days when they realize how easy it really is. It is not just a saying that truth is simplicity itself. Believing that is the tough part, hence your concerns. Give it time and frequent tests, and you will see it is so.

[Matt13]

Hi Sunil,

Thank you. If there are questions that help to confirm this then I would be interested in seeing what answers I have. As for guiding others, I think that may be a while away if its going to come. I'd have to see what happens to the "who? Me?" thought that comes up.

For me, I haven't been laughing for days, though I do seem to be getting a lot of comments every day about how happy I seem. Doesn't stop upsetting and unhappy thoughts coming up as before though. Sometimes they still take over awareness until I remember and look for the I, and then don't find it.

Doubts still arise, it seems almost automatic and habitual, but none of them have withstood a bit of looking to see what is really happening.

I'm also learning that some of the stupid things I do haven't gone away. There's so much talk out there of behaviour changing and unhealthy patterns falling away I guess that's another expectation I had - that my material actions would somehow become magically more appropriate. Perhaps they will, slowly.

Even as I write a thought comes up that this is silly. Who am I to claim I have realised anything?

Another thing I've noticed is less temptation to read about spiritual stuff. Not sure why that is. Partly I've been staying away from other writings during this process, but also the interest in reading more and more about this has waned a little. I hope that picks up again as its all fascinating.

Again, I feel pretentious for thinking anything could have been realised. Part of me is waiting to be found out :-)

[kvotski]

Hi Matt

I am very happy to see you progress to here and the changes you are noticing in your life. Expectations you had, or I had or many have are mainly false. This is the reality. There is just no one to suffer, so it does become easier. You are unfolding as I had. Hopefully neither of us will be " found out". Been through that worry myself.

I do want to spend some time on this pretense. Is there a person that is pretending to be a non person? If I were to find you out, what will I find? That Matt has been lying? But lying about what? Personal experience, Matt. I have been through this as well. If the current Matt is pretending, what is he pretending to be? Not a guide, he doesn't want to be yet. Not awakened, he doesn't feel worthy yet. So what is this unassuming unpretentious Matt pretending to be?

We will deal with the questions later if you want.

[kvotski]

Couple of other ideas.

A koan: do you believe an impostor if he tells you he is an impostor?

In your examination here, use direct experience not the mind. So is the pretension also just another thought?

[kvotski]

Hi Matt,

Whats happening?

Here is a thought to be posted on my blog which may spark some interest.

Stop looking for it.

Hundreds of new age gurus are misleading seekers by simply renaming self with consciousness, awareness, observer and yes, Jesus and God. It kept tripping me up for decades. The guides here finally gave me a simple option. Why not start with the simplest option? Look and see what you can find. If you can't find anything, may be just may be there is nothing there to find. No self, no observer, no awareness, no God, no Santa, no unicorn no superman. It was too simple but everythime I checked I found it to be true.

Now, I can't promise that like me you wouldn't hold a secret desire and admiration for an all pervasive nothingness which some may call God but you will find as I have and many others here that starting from ground zero, literally believe in nothing, is a good place to hang your hat and carry on life. One beautiful outcome of this is that suffering becomes just like taking a crap, a momentary discomfort and sometimes a great relief.

Just to remind you of the techniques, close your eyes and do the touch expereiment and see that there are no finger tips, no skins, no hair and no self and no observer. All just labels mind loves, nay needs to attach to things to function. Once you see that there is no observer, it will try to lable it to awareness like some other guru is talking about. But that too is bullshit.

It is that simple.

[Matt13]

Hi Sunil,

Sorry for the silence, I’ve been contemplating what you said, but for some reason haven’t put together a sensible reply, despite sitting down several times to write.

If the current Matt is pretending, what is he pretending to be?

Am I pretending? Well, that’s what I keep wondering. The last few days I have been listless and lazy, and a little down. I suppose part of me thinks that down moods shouldn’t have an effect if I don’t exist. When I look at what is happening as I type, I can see quite clearly that there is no one thing, no one entity controlling what is happening. From there I can see that the down mood, the things that have saddened me recently are just more thoughts happening, and there is nothing they are happening to. Even as I use the word I, I know that it doesn’t really exist, or at least that it can’t be seen and identified.

A koan: do you believe an impostor if he tells you he is an impostor?

Well, the impostor is just another thought, another fantasy, so I would say no, just let it pass.

So is the pretension also just another thought?

Yes, another thought, another doubting thought. But a thought that the ‘I’ is identifying with and feeling upset about.

Just to remind you of the techniques, close your eyes and do the touch expereiment and see that there are no finger tips, no skins, no hair and no self and no observer.

When I do the experiment there is nothing inside. There are just sensations. When I open my eyes there are just things being seen. When I move away from the experiment and allow other thoughts in, I seem to lose the perspective and get wrapped up in whatever though comes up next.

Seems to be getting harder to see all this clearly the last few days, but then I suppose if it was easy everyone would realise it :)

Matt

[Matt13]

Hi Sunil,

I've been looking at this some more. When I started writing this sentence it felt as if 'I' was sitting down to write. As I write more and look it seems more as if 'I' is something floating around in this head, just another thing floating around in everything. Not sure if that makes sense. There is a real feeling that 'I' am trying to understand this, a really strong feeling that 'I' am thinking about all of this. It's only when i get really still that the 'I' doesn't fill attention. All along there is a feeling that 'I' am directing events, but then a spontaneous thought arises to just examine what has happened and another thought pops up that 'I' did not direct anything.

The whole day has been in and out like this, all surrounded by a lot of 'why aren't things perfect yet' thoughts. I know they are silly. It seems there is a childish part of thought that is looking for everything to be made magically OK.

Just what's going on right now. Will look more and post again.

Matt

[kvotski]

Hi Matt,

One reason we like you to post each day in to maintain momentum which seems to be gone. We will have to recycle some. So lets first start by reselling what this "I" is that keeps you occupied? Read some of your earlier posts if forgotten. Can you find this I? D the pointing experiments. Close your eyes and point to where you think I is? Then open. What are you pointing to?