The Gate

Bill

Have sat and looked in depth. I find that the more I look, the easier it is to see the I thought as just a thought. I know that seeing is immediate, but being able to see through the I thought seems to improve with practice. I can see it tumbling around in there when I look.
It feels as if the genie is out of the bottle, but that there is still resistance, or probably better to describe it as a feeling of being slightly traumatised by all of this seeing. Something feels shocked and a bit upset. My feeling is that various things need time to settle down with what has been seen. Of course these feelings may be because I have been pushing past all my usual spiritual ideas and beliefs and stripping right down to looking, as I have stopped all reading etc. I can see how much of a prop and distraction that has been in the past and wanted to concentrate on and commit to this only.
I was thinking about asking for the final questions, but wanted to check what you think too. Although I have seen and can see there is no I, there are still lots of moments of identification. Even though in many ways it feels clear and immediate, the body’s systems, the belief systems etc feel like they will take a while to get used to it.

This is a sign to me that something's definitely happening for you. Its like many of the things we've kept down can't be kept down any more and come up to be looked at. We see this again and again. And the feelings can be very intense, yes...

A question please, when you say “we see this again and again” do you mean that as guides you see this in people being guided and that it is quite common, or that this will be seen again and again by me (well not me, but you know what I mean!)?

Thanks
Kathy

""This is a sign to me that something's definitely happening for you. Its like many of the things we've kept down can't be kept down any more and come up to be looked at. We see this again and again. And the feelings can be very intense, yes...""

A question please, when you say “we see this again and again” do you mean that as guides you see this in people being guided and that it is quite common, or that this will be seen again and again by me (well not me, but you know what I mean!)?

Yes, we see this happen in people all the time. as the beliefs are seen through, things come up that might have been carefully kept at bay, for years even. And yes, this will continue more than likely. This is just a start. The truth wants to be seen. It bubbles up and says, "Look at me!" this has been my experience anyway, and that of many others.

I do think you are ready for the questions. Remember what we are here for. To see through the illusion of the self. This is really just the start. Many are expecting this to be some kind of full blown Ramana Maharshi enlightenment. It is not that... not that that is not available but its not what we see in people. And yes it does take time to integrate this into your everyday life. We still have all our conditioning from the past. Its' not gone. So we still get angry and feel all the feelings we've ever felt.... but most of the time they just don't last like they used to.


Let's go ahead with the questions Kathy....
Answer freshly and there's no rush.


1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.

3) How does it feel to see this? describe in detail.

4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion but is curious about it.

5) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? was there a specific moment when seeing happened or was it gradual? what exactly happened?

6) When you say "I", what are you referring to?

7) Is there an experiencer experiencing, or is there only experience?
Actually look. Does experience belong to the body, or does the body belong to experience?

8) What did you experience at the moment you awoke? (if you feel this is applicable)

9) Describe your experience in the hours and days following awakening

Hi Bill

Damn I was looking forward to the Ramana experience!

I will answer the questions, thanks.

It is striking to me now I can see it, just how much all the spiritual stuff can be used as a distraction, shield kind of thing. All that internal stuff that keeps the I going, thinking, belief etc. even to the extent of getting withdrawal symptoms. Little habits that reinforce it. There is a continuous narrative and a need to create meaning in there....

What has really helped has been that whatever I said, asked etc, you pointed straight back to looking and kept doing that. There were a couple of times when I nearly gave up, but I am so glad I didn't!

Back with answers soon

Kathy

Hi Bill

This is long! Hope you don't mind me rambling on a bit - I wanted to answer fully

1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No, it can clearly be seen that there is no me. However there is an appearance of a me that does things and still feels like the doer a lot of the time. However, the belief has gone and maybe this feeling of a doer will become less pronounced. The urgent need to get rid of this feeling of a doer seems to have gone.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.

It is a bundle of ideas, thoughts and beliefs, often manifesting as a physical contraction or just a general assumption of a person managing life. If I go to thought I cannot remember a time when it was not there, but there is something else that remembers just being aware and open when I was very young. It often creates a narrative about Kathy doing this, then that. It works by continually thinking about itself, its effect on others, others' effect on it and how it can be best cared for.

3) How does it feel to see this? describe in detail.

It is not how I had imagined. It feels like a mixture of relief and shock to the system, in terms of it not having its usual props and protections as much. It was first seen in glimpses lasting a few hours, then there was a deeper seeing and knowing and now I know. If I am really honest, despite all the writing about expectations, there is a tiny bit of anti-climax that it was not a Ramana moment. There is a lot of gratitude, because even if it is not a constant knowing, it feels like the beginning of new possibilities.

4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion but is curious about it.

I would say it is like an imaginary controller, that completely believes it is there and which tries to help by protecting and managing. It can be felt in physical tension and it colours everything with its belief. It is a bit like an invisible structure that everything else hangs upon

5) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? was there a specific moment when seeing happened or was it gradual? what exactly happened?

It is hard to say as there were glimpses at first, without being convinced. They happened after writing these posts and answering questions. Then when the knowing arrived, it did not happen in a flash, it was more as if it seeped into awareness and then was there. I was sitting for a long time looking very hard at thoughts about I last week when this happened. For me it seemed very effective to look at the thoughts themselves, where they came from, how they created a me. There was one point where there was close looking at the thought creating the I, and then a strong realisation came that I still existed, but was watching the I being created, so could not be that I. Actually looking for an I seemed more difficult than watching the thoughts at first, but now when I look for an I there is just openess and sensations and sounds etc, interspersed with thoughts.

6) When you say "I", what are you referring to?

There is still a habit and acting as if there is an I, despite the knowing. I have to keep going back to the knowing to have a look, but the habit is strong. Apart from that, it is difficult to communicate without using this language.

7) Is there an experiencer experiencing, or is there only experience?
Actually look. Does experience belong to the body, or does the body belong to experience?

This feels more difficult, as if the body has its own habits that are pretty entrenched. When I look there is just sensation, but I cannot make out whether it belongs to the body or whether the body belongs to it. I will keep looking and feel that this may unfold in its own time. With looking at thoughts during these past weeks, the ability to see more and more detail and depth has increased, so maybe it will with the physical experience too.

8) What did you experience at the moment you awoke? (if you feel this is applicable)

It was very simple and a relief. I had to keep looking to see if it was really so. I still do

9) Describe your experience in the hours and days following awakening

This has been of normal life continuing but with an extra bit of knowledge. I have had a lot of very strong feelings, most notably anger. Something feels as if a bit of protection has been taken away. When I used to feel uncomfortable I would reach for the spiritual book, or practice, but I have avoided all of these during this process, except mediation and even that over the last week. A lot of stuff has come up and I was not sure if it was because there was a continual pushing to see, or because of recent losses, or because of this process. Maybe all three.

There has been a knowing underneath it all. It is as if I am going through my life, I feel as if there is a me doing things and acting and feeling, but also, underneath it all there is a knowing that there is no me. Doubts come in from time to time, but these are now seen as doubts and not believed, at least since last Saturday.

I have been reading more of the Gateless Gatecrashers book and that has been good for seeing that others have these same reactions and that this is a beginning only.

All in all, I would say it is not at all like I had expected, but the relief and happiness that come from this knowing are there like a quiet current underneath it all.

thank you

Thank you Kathy - I will submit your questions to our other guides.
They take a look and may have more questions.
Am traveling today...you may not hear from me until tomorrow.
Be well!

Hi Kathy,

The guides feel you have a bit too much doubt left for confirmation.
they are not sure whether it is the normal kind of doubt one feels at times,
or a doubt that the me exists.

One comment was this:

"She writes of "when the knowing arrived"; is it just a knowing for her? Or is it Reality, despite the pull of habit?"

and another this:

"I think there is emotional self investment. Who is experiencing this anger and strong emotion ? There may be fear behind it to be dealt with"

Could you address these comments?

Hello Bill

Yes, see below.

She writes of "when the knowing arrived"; is it just a knowing for her? Or is it Reality, despite the pull of habit?

Right now at this moment it is knowing, but for a while it was reality. I know it is said that once seen this cannot be unseen, but my experience of it in my case is that it was seen and now I know that there is no me, but it is not currently my experience.

This seeing changed something in a very deep way, but it is not a sustained reality for me that there is no self. It has seemed to be clearer and lasted longer each time it has happened.

I think there is emotional self investment. Who is experiencing this anger and strong emotion ? There may be fear behind it to be dealt with

Yes, there is probably emotional self investment, if that refers to identification. I am not sure about the words used. I think there is definitely fear and also shock to the system.

Before starting this process, I was maybe more in touch with feelings in one way, because I let them have voices, but I seem to have clamped down on that recently, because there is a wariness about getting caught in creating more self.

I have been thinking about this and wondering if maybe the readiness is just not here at the moment. I know I can do nothing about that, if it happens it happens. Maybe it is best to have a break for a longer time and just go about my life and see what happens, or maybe continue here for a couple more weeks. There is a feeling of uncertainty here.

I will say that since seeing the few times that I have, there have been deep changes and less stress about things. I am a lot less driven in the seeking, due to a subtle confidence that what I am seeking already is, which came from the glimpses.

Even if there is not the certainty, there is still a lot of change and undoing

Thank you

Kathy

As you have indicated Kathy, maybe a break for a while would be a good thing.
If something comes up in the meantime, don't hesitate to post back here if you want.

You are very close if not there... maybe just living with it for a while, without looking at LU
might be a good thing to do. Try to get out in nature if you can amongst something wild
and just be with it.

Just let go of it for a while.
This will be open for you here.

let me know when you're ready to come back and know you are welcome to start at any time.

Bill

Hello Bill

It was good i to take a break, but also belief in an I has wavered, coming and going. I have a lot of sticky emotional stuff going on at the moment, which can recreate an I very quickly I have found!

Don't want to sound too negative and am looking forward to continuing

Thanks

Kathy

Glad you are back Kathy
hope you had a nice little time away...
Lets continue then where we left off.

I wanted to look at something you said in response to one of the questions asked just a while ago...

7) Is there an experiencer experiencing, or is there only experience?
Actually look. Does experience belong to the body, or does the body belong to experience?


This feels more difficult, as if the body has its own habits that are pretty entrenched. When I look there is just sensation, but I cannot make out whether it belongs to the body or whether the body belongs to it. I will keep looking and feel that this may unfold in its own time. With looking at thoughts during these past weeks, the ability to see more and more detail and depth has increased, so maybe it will with the physical experience too.

Relax for a bit and try these two exercises:

Loot at a flower or a plant, is there any separation between you and the flower or plant? How about with smelling experience? Try this with the music. Listen to the music not with your ears but with all your being. You will discover that you can’t truly listen and think at the same time. The slightest thought stops the natural flowing of the music.

Relax into 360 degree reception of sensory data around you: what you see, smell, hear, taste and feel against your body. For example: feet feel warm with some pressure against them, fingers feel plastic keyboard, armchair felt against back, etc. Lose yourself so that only sensations remain. Listen to the noise of fridge, intensively like never before. Let the mind register everything, but relax from the need to label anything as "a thing".
When you are relaxed like this, LOOK to see if you can find a body anywhere, and if there is any border between the body and what it not the body...

As always, take your time with it.
Report back what your experience is.

Is there an experiencer experiencing, or is there only experience?
Does experience belong to the body, or does the body belong to experience?

Bill

Thanks Bill

Will do these and post back later

Kathy

Bill

Have been sitting with this today, but would like to spend more time and report back tomorrow if that's ok. Very powerful exercises

Kathy

Hello Bill

Is there an experiencer experiencing, or is there only experience?
Does experience belong to the body, or does the body belong to experience?

I have been looking really closely. I sat and listened to music, just let it all happen, the listening, listening with everything. There was a flowing and there was no experiencer. When thoughts came, they were seen as thoughts, even thoughts of I. There was just the music, or the sounds, physical sensations and every now and again, some thoughts, which, as you said, did stop the listening. I could not tell if experience belonged to the body, or vice versa, it seemed neither.

There was only the experience, and then thoughts about the experience and about a person having the experience, but even without the thoughts the experience would have happened and so would the hearing of the music.

I have been doing this with other things too. Often thought comes up and I look to see if there is an I attached to it. It is very strange to see thought about an I going on, but it not being me somehow. It is a bit unnerving! There are thoughts that come up of wanting to go through the gate, but even those seem to be about a me going through. On the other hand there is a pull towards looking and wanting the truth that happens anyway, without an I

I did the second exercise too, but not in as much depth due to time. I cannot find a body, only a few sensations, but no defined and solid body.

Thanks

Kathy

Kathy - watch this for a day or so and write how it feels to see this.
Write also about your expectations again and what you might still be looking for.
is there anything still there that you are after?

And lastly, are there any fears still lingering if you really look? Anything that is stopping
you or holding you back.
You're doing great... good for you that you are continuing with the inquiry.

Hi Bill

Have had a really busy day. If it's ok, will do this this evening and tomorrow and post back then.

Thanks

Kathy