The Gate

And untill I see that there is no seeker and so forth, I will always be LOOKING within the framework of a seeker.

You can't see that there is no you until you see that there is no you? I would have to agree with that...

You are not speaking from direct experience, you are regurgitating things that you have read and adopted as beliefs about how this works and what this should be like. You can keep chasing these stories or you can drop them and look at what I'm pointing to.

I'm here if you decide you actually want to engage with what I have communicated.

Let me ask you this, because it all comes down to the quality of our experiencing; If "I", whatever I am...knowing that I cant be a person and beginning to understand that there is no "me", ...If I, in moments of "suffering", am able to SEE that there is no person suffering and become quite, what does that mean? There is always still this sense of self and individuality, but "what I am" becomes very still.

Maybe I only think that I only know this intellectually, when perhaps I have become some of this. I know that is fraught with non-dual contradictions, just the limitations of language.

Let me ask you this, because it all comes down to the quality of our experiencing; If "I", whatever I am...knowing that I cant be a person and beginning to understand that there is no "me", ...If I, in moments of "suffering", am able to SEE that there is no person suffering and become quite, what does that mean? There is always still this sense of self and individuality, but "what I am" becomes very still.

Maybe I only think that I only know this intellectually, when perhaps I have become some of this. I know that is fraught with non-dual contradictions, just the limitations of language.

Don't worry about the limitations of language. Subject/object duality is built into language and it's unavoidable when communicating.

Seeing this as opposed to just understanding it is useful not only because it causes a shift in perception, but it also develops valuable skills. Once you've learned this technique of inquiry, it can be applied to any assumptions/beliefs as they come up. Nothing should just be accepted, even if it "makes sense", it should be tested in your own experience.

What you describe above is very useful in times of suffering. I'd encourage you to continue to question all beliefs, especially the belief that there is a what in "what I am".

When I examine this idea of "what i am" and then attempt to drop the notion of a what...It seems like the mind still wants to objectify even this notion of a lack of a "what"..

When I examine this idea of "what i am" and then attempt to drop the notion of a what...It seems like the mind still wants to objectify even this notion of a lack of a "what"..

I know, frustrating, isn't it!? Buddhist emptiness teachings speak to this need to objectify everything. It's so ingrained in our way of thinking that it's difficult to see how it could be other than what we "naturally" assume.

These questions should take the mind to it's limit. Should we assume there is an answer to be found?

I know, frustrating, isn't it!? Buddhist emptiness teachings speak to this need to objectify everything. It's so ingrained in our way of thinking that it's difficult to see how it could be other than what we "naturally" assume.

Thats exactly right. Do you think some of these teachings would "help"?

Should we assume ther is an answer to be found?

An answer to the "what" aspect? Hmm, it feels like the "issue" lies within that assumption. Like...any act of seeking, implies an assumed expecation of a "finding". So, how does one progess down this path removed from being a Seeker?

Do you think any of the emptiness teachings you mentioned are worth looking into?

Should we assume there is an answer to be found to the question of a "what"? Well, I feel like the root of the whole issue lies with that assumption. Its like...the seeking of anything implies an expectation of finding something... So than, how does one progress from this point forward after seeking is seen to be a road block..?

oops :)

I know, frustrating, isn't it!? Buddhist emptiness teachings speak to this need to objectify everything. It's so ingrained in our way of thinking that it's difficult to see how it could be other than what we "naturally" assume.

Thats exactly right. Do you think some of these teachings would "help"?

I think it would be a distraction at this point. It would probably be more helpful to keep on this line of inquiry right now.

Should we assume ther is an answer to be found?

An answer to the "what" aspect? Hmm, it feels like the "issue" lies within that assumption. Like...any act of seeking, implies an assumed expecation of a "finding". So, how does one progess down this path removed from being a Seeker?[/quote]

Thoughts are CREATIVE. The search (questioning thoughts) actually creates the seeker. Look at how this works, tear it apart. See this in action.

So, what is seeking. Yeah, ill def look into that.

Lets stay in touch. Thanks Chris

So, what is seeking. Yeah, ill def look into that.

Lets stay in touch. Thanks Chris

Spoiler alert: You won't find the what because there is none.

I'd encourage you to question all beliefs. Observe how thought creates...EVERYTHING! What is experienced if there is no thought ABOUT what's experienced?

I'd be happy to stay in touch, let me know what you find.

""What is experienced if there is no thought ABOUT what's experienced?""

Well to really imbue that, there would have to only be ExperiencING right? Not a WHAT that is being experienced..


On a quick different note... In your experience, were frustrations ever experienced along your path to awakening (relatively speaking of course)? Frustrations as far as..annoyances with other people..and this life... its almost like a felt friction between my path and the typical/normal level of consciousness of this world...that I interact with every day, job..family...relationships.

Makes sense?

""What is experienced if there is no thought ABOUT what's experienced?""

Well to really imbue that, there would have to only be ExperiencING right? Not a WHAT that is being experienced..

The thing is for this to "work" for you, you have to have the experience. Don't just reason it out, do the exercises. Do them many times, it's all about seeing this for yourself in action.

On a quick different note... In your experience, were frustrations ever experienced along your path to awakening (relatively speaking of course)? Frustrations as far as..annoyances with other people..and this life... its almost like a felt friction between my path and the typical/normal level of consciousness of this world...that I interact with every day, job..family...relationships.

Makes sense?

Yes, there are frustrations. Still to this day...

The thing is for this to "work" for you, you have to have the experience. Don't just reason it out, do the exercises. Do them many times, it's all about seeing this for yourself in action.

...the main point of the exercise being the "seeing" that there is no actual person? That has been "working" well for me.

Yes, there are frustrations. Still to this day...

..I know the point of this forum is not to discuss things of the relative, but I would really appreciate it if you could speak just a little bit about your frustrations and how "you" "manage" "them" : )

The thing is for this to "work" for you, you have to have the experience. Don't just reason it out, do the exercises. Do them many times, it's all about seeing this for yourself in action.

...the main point of the exercise being the "seeing" that there is no actual person? That has been "working" well for me.

Yes, there are frustrations. Still to this day...

..I know the point of this forum is not to discuss things of the relative, but I would really appreciate it if you could speak just a little bit about your frustrations and how "you" "manage" "them" : )

You are right, it's not the point of this form. We have facebook groups for that sort of thing, but to be added, you'd have to go "blue". I'm glad looking has been working for you. If you would like to work with me on that, I'd be happy to help!