Help seeing through the separate self

[Noro]

Hello Ellie,

Thank you this is very reassuring! I think I have been expecting some fireworks - I have read so many enlightenment stories that I thought the realisation would be more obvious. But this is just a story, and expectations can't always be met! It can only happen the way it happens! I have heard of the fetters but not really familiar with them, so it's good to think of there being layers.

Yes, all those stories!! and the word 'enlightenment' itself create a lot of expectations which can really get in the way.

No, it couldn't have happened in any other way! Yes, looking at it from a curiosity point of view is great and I think it would be good to work on this more with you if you don't mind. I think there might be a number of underlying emotions I will need to investigate!

Great! Well let's take a look. Over the weekend find a situation where you had a reaction to something someone did or said.
It doesn't have to be anything big, but triggering enough for you to have a familiar response like the recent one with your husband, and describe the event in a linear fashion.
1. Where you were and what you were doing.
2. What happened (what you saw or heard)
3. Your emotional response and your behavioral reaction (internal or external).

When I find the truth I will be ...free
And then I will be ...flowing with life, not against it
And that will mean I can be ...at peace

Lovely, so ultimately it is freedom, flowing with life and not against it, and to be at peace which is the objective.
This ties in very well with the exploring that we will do together.


Warmly,

Rowena

[aldertree]

Dear Rowena,

Regarding sharing about your inquiry, the fetters inquiries are a way of looking into what it is that makes us feel defensive or reactive. One could say they are about gaining self-knowledge and a way to dissolve patterns of identification that have formed as a result of conditioning. Something like that. No need to mention a self or not, after all you are well on your way to seeing through that long-held assumption. And just because it is seen that a separate self doesn’t actually exist it doesn’t mean it cannot be fully used in everyday conversation.

This is an excellent video conversation on the subject.

https://youtu.be/eye33kD4uSI?is=sCi0GQFiH0xMZBAS

Thank you for this! I am going to bring this up this weekend, then I can stop thinking about it!

I watched the video and it made me realise if I am in the process of breaking through fetter 1 (and maybe 2 and 3) there is still along way to go. I had the expectation that the process of direct pointing that we are doing would take me from 1 to 8 (without knowing what they were at the time!). I realise now, no-self, is just the beginning of the process really and that I need to stop questioning myself all the time - I think doubt in myself is a big part of it!

I did actually have a reaction earlier today which I will recount. Again if you are busy I will wait for your reply until you are free but just thought I would do it now whilst I have a bit of time to myself.

1. Where you were and what you were doing.

At work, making bread

2. What happened (what you saw or heard)

My sister came in and she started firing off a list of stuff my daughter needed to do later to help with an event she is doing (my daughter is only 14 and is helping out).

3. Your emotional response and your behavioral reaction (internal or external).

Externally I just nodded along. Internally my chest and throat were tightening, thoughts flying through my head - my daughter is only 14 she can't expect so much of her, why does my sister have to talk like that all the time (like everything is an inconvenience and she is so hard done by).

I'm not sure if this is the best place to start, like the video said it might be better to start with smaller things. I have a difficult relationship with my mum, like I mentioned before, and both my sisters (I sometimes wonder if I am adopted!). So if you think this is too big we can start with something smaller.

Warmly,
Ellie

[Noro]

Hi Ellie,

I watched the video and it made me realise if I am in the process of breaking through fetter 1 (and maybe 2 and 3) there is still along way to go. I had the expectation that the process of direct pointing that we are doing would take me from 1 to 8 (without knowing what they were at the time!). I realise now, no-self, is just the beginning of the process really and that I need to stop questioning myself all the time - I think doubt in myself is a big part of it!

It is not helpful to think of a long way to go...remember, a long way for whom?
Some people have spontaneous awakenings when all the fetters drop and they are left in total confusion. That happened to Eckart Tolle and Byron Katie amongst others. A lot is going on in the nervous system and taking it slowly and gently with a lot of self-compassion and at the same time curiosity and dedication will allow for a much more gentle awakening and integration of that in daily living.

Why does my sister have to talk like that all the time?

This is perfect!
So in the process we change the projection outwards on to the person (I don't like that) which creates a lot of reactivity and all the internal contractions.
We change it to what your sister didn't do, what you would have liked her to do instead.
So, you can begin with:
"She didn't.............." and fill in the gap with words that FEEL right, keep playing around with the words and adjusting until you have what feels correct.
We are filled with expectations about how others should behave towards us, they should be considerate, calm, quiet, etc.
So, what needs of your's were not met at that moment when you were busy making bread? There was clearly some disruption that caused you inner distress (contracting sensations) that led to the thought response and the full on emotional reaction within.

For instance:
"She didn't come in and ask me if I had a moment to talk?" Somehing like that.

When you find your sentence, you want to say it quietly to yourself and watch carefully for sensations arising in the body which will be different to the reactive ones. These are known as the "primary sensations." that arise prior to the secondary movement of reaction.

When you do this inquiry, make sure that you are alone and have some quiet time, apart from the sentences which you can write down to test them, it is about SENSING AND FEELING for the primary sensation and staying with that for a short while.

Here is Kevin Shanilek's website for further info.

This inquiry is a continuation of seeing through the illusion of the separate self.

Warmly,

Rowena

[aldertree]

Hi Rowena,

It is not helpful to think of a long way to go...remember, a long way for whom?

Ah yes, I keep referring to the self. Of course there isn't a long way to go, 'you' can only be here!

Thank you for the exercise. I will work on this over the weekend and get back to you.

Warmly,
Ellie

[aldertree]

Hi Rowena,

Sorry I haven't had too much time alone to do this till now, but I have been mulling it over!

When you do this inquiry, make sure that you are alone and have some quiet time, apart from the sentences which you can write down to test them, it is about SENSING AND FEELING for the primary sensation and staying with that for a short while.

She didn't...

come and ask me if I wanted any help.
There is still a contraction when I say this but it has more of a sadness to it rather than anger, like there is more love being shown rather than expectations. Over the last couple of days when I looked at this response I realised that I want to be supported, helped and looked after sometimes rather than always just being asked for help.

Warm wishes,
Ellie

[Noro]

Hi Ellie,

That’s wonderful…. You can see clearly here the movement from the deeper held desire, to the protective reaction.

Keep staying wth the sentence and see if you can find a gap between the primary sensation and the angry reaction.

Let’s check back tomorrow.

Warmly,

Rowena

[aldertree]

Good morning,

Thanks! I have tried looking for a gap but when I think back and say the new sentences and look for the reaction it doesn't really re-trigger the feelings. Maybe this is because it happened several days ago? I am also in a very reactive mood today and every things seems to be triggering me so not sure how well I can apply this!

Warm wishes,
Ellie

[Noro]

Hi Ellie,

Yes, it is best to let drop any inquiry if the system seems very reactive. Just try and stay with the sensations and away from the mental interpretations associating with the sensations.

Also, placing your attention's fully in one of the senses fields, sound, visual in direct experience of them can help calm the system. Think of it as a period of integration. It’s okay to feel reactive.

Is there a ‘you’ that can be reactive? Is there a ‘you’ that can control whether you arereactive or not? Or is reactiveness simply happening?

Let me know how it goes,

Warm wishes,
Rowena

[aldertree]

Hi Rowena,

Thank you, I am feeling much better this afternoon!

Also, placing your attention's fully in one of the senses fields, sound, visual in direct experience of them can help calm the system. Think of it as a period of integration. It’s okay to feel reactive.

I spent some time in the senses and thoughts kept popping up. I then put on some favourite music and a good sing along allowed me to stay much more present, in the hearing field at least!

Is there a ‘you’ that can be reactive? Is there a ‘you’ that can control whether you arereactive or not? Or is reactiveness simply happening?

No, the reactions just come up, no control over them!

Keep staying with the sentence and see if you can find a gap between the primary sensation and the angry reaction.

I have continued to look at this and there is a very tiny gap before the reaction happens, but it is very tiny!

Warm wishes,
Ellie

[Noro]

Hi Ellie,

K

eep staying with the sentence and see if you can find a gap between the primary sensation and the angry reaction.

I have continued to look at this and there is a very tiny gap before the reaction happens, but it is very tiny!

Tiny is perfect!

When you say the sentence about the issue in the format of what you would have wanted, i.e. what was missing, rather than from the perspective of something that was done 'to you', what you shared previously there was a feeling of some sadness. So this sensation of 'sadness' is the primary sensation.

1. Very quietly and gently, see where in the body the movement arises. Front/back? Abdomen/Chest? Right/Left/Centre? And jot down a few short description.
2. Pinpoint and try and be in the 'tiny' gap.
3. Watch the progression, if any, towards the secondary reactive sensation and see how that moves and try and jot down a few small descriptions.

The points 1, 2, and 3, can be looked at separate, or together as a flow, or however you care to explore. The point is to see whether there is any separate 'trigger' button that can be found that can be associated with a 'you' as a separate self.

It is good to keep working with the same issue and sentence in order to watch the flow and how it evolves each time you go over it again.

Warmly,

Rowena

[aldertree]

Hi Rowena,

1. Very quietly and gently, see where in the body the movement arises. Front/back? Abdomen/Chest? Right/Left/Centre? And jot down a few short description.

The sensation is in the front of the body, in the middle of the throat and the top of the chest.

2. Pinpoint and try and be in the 'tiny' gap.

It feels uncomfortable to be in the gap and feel these sensations.

3. Watch the progression, if any, towards the secondary reactive sensation and see how that moves and try and jot down a few small descriptions.

When I am in this uncomfortable gap with the throat and chest sensations there is less of a story flying around. My attention is on the sensations.

The point is to see whether there is any separate 'trigger' button that can be found that can be associated with a 'you' as a separate self.

I can feel the button being pushed but I can't find a button or a separate 'me' pushing the button.

I will keep working on this!

Warm wishes,
Ellie

[Noro]

Wonderful work Ellie!

Please keep me posted!

Rowena :)

[aldertree]

Hi Rowena,

I continued looking for the button into yesterday evening and still can't find it or a you pressing it!

I did have a couple of questions. How do I know when I have crossed from the primary sensations to a secondary reaction? Sometimes I don't react externally, it is all internal and the sensations experienced in the primary and secondary can be quite similar - tight throat, hot face etc.

Also is this process the same if I am reacting to my own thoughts and getting myself worked up? And again how would I know when I have gone from the primary to secondary reaction?

Warm wishes
Ellie

[Noro]

Hi Ellie,

I did have a couple of questions. How do I know when I have crossed from the primary sensations to a secondary reaction? Sometimes I don't react externally, it is all internal and the sensations experienced in the primary and secondary can be quite similar - tight throat, hot face etc.

It takes a while to fully be able to follow the movement of these subtle body contractions. You don't have to react externally for there to be a reaction by thought.... "Why do they...", or "It's not right....." etc.


1. Start with the thought (phrase) and investigate. Here are some deeper questions to look at:

Is the label or the thought the same as the sensations themselves?
Does the thought about the issue know anything about the actual feelings or sensations, or is the word/thought just a bunch of words being blurted out?

2) Then once all thoughts and mental images have been investigated, look at the sensation. Divested of the thoughts and images that are attached to the sensation…all that is there is raw sensation.

Inquire into the sensation and ask if the sensation itself knows anything about the thoughts being produced.

Does the sensation itself suggest in any way that it is the same as the thoughts about it?
Does the sensation itself know anything about 'the issue'?
Can you find anyone/anything IN the sensation itself, or behind the sensation that is doing those actions?

Also is this process the same if I am reacting to my own thoughts and getting myself worked up? And again how would I know when I have gone from the primary to secondary reaction?

You can use the same process of looking because everything is thought! All thought is an overlay by the mind (mental activity)
onto the direct experience of what is happening: body sensations / more subtle thoughts / more subtle body sensations / more subtle thoughts/beliefs. There are layers to uncover.

Another way to approach is to ask: Where is this "I" that thinks that things should be other than they are? LOOK
Where is this belief held that "she/he/they should have............acted/said differently"
And then you take the thought and follow it back.

But only work with one issue at a time. This exercise is not about ending reactivity, it is looking to find a separate "I" or doer
or trigger creating the need for a reaction.

I think it would be easiest if you would share a recent issue that we can work with together.

Warm wishes,

Rowena

[aldertree]

Thank you for your patience Rowena!

I am struggling with my hormones and my mood going up and down very quickly. I can feel rage and then tears and then a few minutes later I feel fine again. It is a bit of a roller coaster. It isn't always something that has happened which triggers it. I can just sit in the sensations sometimes but then thoughts will come up - I don't want to do this, I don't want to be here and I just want to run away. Thoughts that it just isn’t possible for me to awaken when I am like this.

Sometimes I can feel like I am just experiencing these sensations for hours or days at a time which can get overwhelming but I know in a day or so everything will even out and it will be okay again.

Please let me know which investigation is the best way to proceed.

Warm wishes
Ellie