What am i?

[Idk]

Also, I wanted to share a couple of realizations I had that I wanted to tell you about a week ago, but I forgot. As I slowly started noticing that everything I was observing wasn’t me, it surprised me that I didn’t gradually realize that everything is one—it was an instant realization. As long as there was the world and there was “me” in it, there was separation. But once the idea of “me” disappeared, it immediately became obvious that everything is one and that everything comes from the same source. I also feel like I finally understood why “nothing” is more fundamental than “something.” It’s because the whole world arises out of nothing. Everything outside of consciousness doesn’t exist, and when consciousness disappears, like during sleep, that “nothing” becomes total. That’s basically the fundamental state of reality.

[Noro]

Hi Idk,

Thanks for your two messages. It is good to hear from you. You are getting close, so let's keep looking, not coming to conclusions about your inquiry.

Are you looking to defend seeing a "self?" Or looking to see there is no "self?"
Believing is seeing. You can continue to believe the story of self forever and nothing I or anyone say will dissuade you.

The observation practice hasn’t been going as smoothly as I expected.

This is an interpretation, it is pure thought content. What is this "I" that can expect or not expect? Where is it to be found?

.....but as soon as I start thinking, I can’t untangle the knot anymore. Everything blends into one big mess, and the sense of “me” comes back, which confuses me, because the previous time it was much easier to see through this, and there was much less confusion

Can you see that this is simply the appearance of a thought: "I can't untangle the knot anymore."
In your direct experience, can a sense of "me" come back? Was it ever there in the first place?
Please investigate this sense of "me" carefully. To what does it refer?

As long as there was the world and there was “me” in it, there was separation.

Yes, except there was never a "me" that was could be found to be separate was there?

But once the idea of “me” disappeared, it immediately became obvious that everything is one and that everything comes from the same source.

This is great! However, did the idea of "me" actually disappear, except as thought, and thoughts arise and disappear all the time? So was it ever more than a thought/idea coming and going, an appearance amongst other appearances?

I also feel like I finally understood why “nothing” is more fundamental than “something.” It’s because the whole world arises out of nothing. Everything outside of consciousness doesn’t exist, and when consciousness disappears, like during sleep, that “nothing” becomes total. That’s basically the fundamental state of reality.

It is helpful for the mind to be able to understand, but anything understood intellectually can undermine the immediacy of direct experience. We have to use words like 'nothing' or 'no-thing' but they are pointers on the way and so any 'thing' named, including the label 'nothing' must constantly be verified in direct experience.

What is 'nothing' in your direct experience? Is it knowable as a thing, how is it for you? Is it fixed in any way?
Can anything be found that is separate from what is appearing in your direct experience.
Can you find some other words for this 'nothing" that appears to be more fundamental than all the "somethings?

Everything outside of consciousness doesn't exist.

Can any actual 'things' ever be found to exist other than as thoughts interpreting direct experience?
In conventional reality, we can close the door of our home, and expect to return to everything inside the home being in the same place as we remembered it before we left. This is all memory, arising NOW (do you remember the memory exercise?

....and when consciousness disappears, like during sleep, that “nothing” becomes total. That’s basically the fundamental state of reality.

Again this is a good conclusion to come up with, but it has nothing to do with what you are actually experiencing.
Please let go of theories, keep it simple, keep returning to your direct experience.

Please answer each question separately from your direct experience:

If I were to ask you to stand up and take a step towards your self, where would you go?

What is it that senses the feeling of me?
Whatever that is, and whatever it senses, are they separate?
Where is that which senses located?
Where is that feeling of me located?
Is that 'feeling of me' or 'sense of me' permanent?
If not, does it come and go?
If it can't be found, where does it go?
What knows it's gone?
If the self is the 'me' and then it disappears, how can a 'you' still be here?
Were 'you' ever here?

THOUGHTS ABOUT AN "I" OR A "ME" ARE STILL GOING TO HAPPEN, BUT
Does that thought "ME" or "I" refer back to anything at all?

Stay curious!

Warm wishes,
Rowena

[Idk]

Hi Rowena,
sorry for replying so late, i had my reasons. i hope these answers are satisfactory, even though i haven’t reached the understanding that the “i” can’t be found and that there is no “i.”

What is this "I" that can expect or not expect? Where is it to be found?

In thoughts and sensations.

In your direct experience, can a sense of "me" come back? Was it ever there in the first place?
Please investigate this sense of "me" carefully. To what does it refer?

i realized that it still leads back to sensations in the body, specifically sensations around the face. when i start thinking from the perspective of “myself,” my attention shifts more toward the face area. when i’m just living without thinking about any “me,” that feeling doesn’t appear at all. it’s there, but my attention just doesn’t go there.

Yes, except there was never a "me" that was could be found to be separate was there?

honestly, i don’t know, and i can’t answer that question from direct experience because i don’t have that understanding. but what i can say from direct experience is that the “i” is created by thoughts. i know that for 100%.

What is 'nothing' in your direct experience? Is it knowable as a thing, how is it for you? Is it fixed in any way?
Can anything be found that is separate from what is appearing in your direct experience.
Can you find some other words for this 'nothing" that appears to be more fundamental than all the "somethings?

1. There is no nothingness in direct experience.
2. No, it can’t be known as something.
3. Nothingness doesn’t exist, so i guess it isn’t fixed.
4. No, nothing is separate from direct experience.
5. Something that doesn’t exist in any form, something that you can’t say anything about because it isn’t “something.”

Can any actual 'things' ever be found to exist other than as thoughts interpreting direct experience?

objectively, no.

If I were to ask you to stand up and take a step towards your self, where would you go?

i didn’t quite understand the question.

What is it that senses the feeling of me?
Whatever that is, and whatever it senses, are they separate?
Where is that which senses located?
Where is that feeling of me located?
Is that 'feeling of me' or 'sense of me' permanent?
If not, does it come and go?
If it can't be found, where does it go?
What knows it's gone?
If the self is the 'me' and then it disappears, how can a 'you' still be here?
Were 'you' ever here?

1. no one/nothing feels this sense of self.
2. no.
3. it’s not located anywhere; everything happens in direct experience.
4. physically, it’s in the facial area.
5. no.
6. yes, it comes and goes.
7. nowhere, but i haven’t fully understood yet that this “i” can’t be found.
8. nothing.
9. i can’t.
10. i don’t know, i genuinely don’t know.

[Noro]

Hi Idk,

sorry for replying so late, i had my reasons. i hope these answers are satisfactory, even though i haven’t reached the understanding that the “i” can’t be found and that there is no “i.”

That's OK (for replying late!!). YOU WILL NEVER REACH THE UNDERSTANDING! There is no separate 'you' to understand or not understand. In language, I will write to an APPARENT you, but it is empty, it is unfound and unfindable as am "I" and so therefore one could say that it is emptiness writing these word and reading these words to itself.

"I haven't reached the understanding that "I" cant be found and that there is no "I".

What appears to be being said is: "I can't understand why "I" can't be found, and "I" can't understand that there is no "I".
My suggestion is to go into the feeling of this non-understanding. It is a huge paradigm shift, there is a lot of energy in this and it is hard for old patterning to let go. The self-system thrives on knowing and understanding and the system is being hacked!

What is it that senses the feeling of me?

1. no one/nothing feels this sense of self.

Take away the labels 'no one/nothing' and what is left?.
What is it that senses the feeling of me after all labels are dropped?
Can it be known or understood? Yes /No?

Were 'you' ever here?

10. i don’t know, i genuinely don’t know.

I sense your confusion.
But can you allow yourself to BE WITH this confusion?
How does if feel to 'not know?' Go there. Go into the body.
What is felt?
What other thoughts are arising regarding this apparent refusal to believe what direct experience is pointing to

Keep reporting back to me.

Warmly,

Rowena

[Idk]

Hi Rowena,

Take away the labels 'no one/nothing' and what is left?.

just the feeling itself

What is it that senses the feeling of me after all labels are dropped?

Only the feeling itself remains.

Only the feeling itself remains.

No

But can you allow yourself to BE WITH this confusion?
How does if feel to 'not know?' Go there. Go into the body.
What is felt?

It’s a slightly pressuring feeling, a little tense. Nothing extreme, but it’s just there somewhere in the background.

What other thoughts are arising regarding this apparent refusal to believe what direct experience is pointing to

Thoughts that I need to keep searching, that I need to find this "understanding"

[Noro]

Hi Idk,

How does if feel to 'not know?' Go there. Go into the body.
What is felt?

It’s a slightly pressuring feeling, a little tense. Nothing extreme, but it’s just there somewhere in the background.

In your direct experience what does that mean? It sounds very vague to me.
Direct experience of feelings/body sensations is 100%, If thoughts arise, see them as a diversion away from fully feeling and return to the sensations in the body.

What other thoughts are arising regarding this apparent refusal to believe what direct experience is pointing to

Thoughts that I need to keep searching, that I need to find this "understanding"

This searching, this seeking, this need...... to find "this" understanding.
What is seeking? RIGHT HERE RIGHT NOW?
What is missing? RIGHT HERE RIGHT NOW?
What if all this needing, this searching, all this seeking is all about fleeing from what is here now?

There is no need without lack
There is no lack, without a feeling of lack.
Go into the body,
Go into the feeling, and stay with the feeling. Give it 100% attention.
The thoughts are interpretations, they are pointers to what is needing to be felt.

Is there anything to be found in the sensation to suggest something is lacking, however intense the sensation?Can you BE WITH this looping of thoughts and sensations.
Is there a controller of thinking?
Can a thought need something?
Can a sensation need something?

Stay with it......
Let me know how it goes.

Warm regards,
Rowena

[Idk]

Hi Rowena,

In your direct experience what does that mean?

Like a slight tension in the lower abdomen.

What is seeking? RIGHT HERE RIGHT NOW?

Nothing

What is missing? RIGHT HERE RIGHT NOW?

Nothing

Is there anything to be found in the sensation to suggest something is lacking, however intense the sensation?

No

Is there a controller of thinking?
Can a thought need something?
Can a sensation need something?

No

Very short this time, but I don’t know what else to write, so here’s my answers

[Noro]

Hello Idk,

Good to hear from you.

There's already no you, even if it seems that there is a you.
No matter if there are thoughts and sensations associated with everyday life situations or memories about the past.
No matter if there are thoughts and even fears about the future.
No matter if there is talking about what happened yesterday, or this morning, or five minutes ago.
There is no separate independent 'self' or "I" controlling or choosing or making decisions.

Let me know how this lands with you now.

Warmly,
Rowena

[Idk]

Hi Rowena,

Let me know how this lands with you now.

There is still a self-image and thoughts about myself that reinforce this image. There is still some kind of “I” at the center of this life, because so much attention is directed toward it due to the belief that this “I” exists

[Noro]

Hello Idk,

There is still a self-image and thoughts about myself that reinforce this image.

OK, but does a self-image and thoughts about a 'me' proving the actual existence of a separate, independent "me"?

There is still some kind of “I” at the center of this life, because so much attention is directed toward it due to the belief that this “I” exists

What is this some kind of "I" at the center of this life? Show me the evidence.
Please tell me more about it from your direct experience when you stop getting lost and/or mesmerized by thoughts and bring your attention to looking at what is here right now.
If 'you' want to continue to believe that this "I" exists, please, by all means do.
But take a look:
What is insisting here? What is this "I" or "you"? What is it made of?
Go into the feeling tone of this insisting.
How does this insisting feel? Relaxed and at ease, or contracted and tense?
Is this insisting arising on behalf of a 'someone'?
What does holding onto this belief serve?
Who gains from holding onto this belief when direct looking has shown that there is no actual "I" or "you"?
Does a thought/belief have any power to act, to choose, to decide?
Does a feeling have any power to act, to choose, to decide?

When you cross a road, do you need to find that "I" at the center of this life in order for it to decide if it is safe or not, or does crossing a road safely happen quite naturally due to the intricate workings of your bodymind system?
Just because no actual body was found in the exercise of direct looking of a body, it is not expected that conventional reality be dropped, direct experience allows for a different way of looking at 'reality', it is not to replace the conventional way of experiencing things. We live and function in conventional reality.

Please say what would actually be missing in your life if you accepted the evidence that there never has been a separate "I" at the center. Can you deny all the evidence showing that there is no separate self, "I", "you"?

Warmly,
Rowena

[Idk]

Hi Rowena,
Please forgive me for the late reply. It’s been almost two weeks, which is probably the longest period I’ve ever gone without replying. I came back from a family vacation and almost immediately flew to another city for university. Then there were some issues with the dorm that I had to deal with for a couple of days, and I also had to sort out my schedule and work, while also keeping up with assignments.
But now I’d like to promise that my replies will be within two days at most, and most of the time even sooner. I really need to sort this out and finish this journey faster.

OK, but does a self-image and thoughts about a 'me' proving the actual existence of a separate, independent "me"?

As you wrote below, these thoughts are mesmerising, and I kind of fall into a trance-like state — well, maybe not exactly a trance, but this is how I see it: over the past couple of days, I’ve started catching myself more and more being in my thoughts for most of the day. And although this hasn’t been a problem for most of my life, because I was constantly distracted by different things happening in my life, and those things would quiet my thoughts down, now maybe it’s some kind of coping mechanism for stress, where I retreat into myself, or maybe it’s something else, but all of this has become too much. These thoughts have become too strong, and the real world has started to seem dull and almost mediocre, while the thoughts, on the contrary, have become more and more prominent. I’ve noticed this more recently, which is why I’ve started getting back into meditation. It seems to help. But to answer your question: I’m not entirely sure that self-image and thoughts prove the existence of a “self,” but it all feels very substantial and seems real.

What is insisting here? What is this "I" or "you"? What is it made of?

As I see it, this “self” consists of thoughts and the body, meaning the very sensation of the body. But if you simplify it even further, then it’s just thoughts.

How does this insisting feel? Relaxed and at ease, or contracted and tense?

contracted and tense

Is this insisting arising on behalf of a 'someone'?

Yes, it feels like someone is saying “I, I, I, I” and there’s some kind of “hypnosis” (maybe hypnosis is too strong a word, but that’s roughly how it feels, when you once understood that there is no “I,” but then started believing in it again) when there are constant thoughts about an “I” that exists, and you start perceiving it as a fact.

What does holding onto this belief serve?

I don’t know the exact reasons, but I think it’s just a deeply rooted habit, and it seems to serve as some kind of defense mechanism, because there needs to be a “someone” for the psyche to function. But honestly, I feel like it’s still just a deeply rooted habit, and whether it’s there or not, nothing really changes.

Who gains from holding onto this belief when direct looking has shown that there is no actual "I" or "you"?

No one. I don’t think you can gain anything from it.

Does a thought/belief have any power to act, to choose, to decide?

No, a thought/belief has no power to choose, act, or decide.

Does a feeling have any power to act, to choose, to decide?

No.

When you cross a road, do you need to find that "" at the center of this life in order for it to decide if it is safe or not, or does crossing a road safely happen quite naturally due to the intricate workings of your bodymind system?

No, you don’t need any “I” to cross the road; it’s all the result of the body-mind functioning. There’s nothing else to physical actions.

Please say what would actually be missing in your life if you accepted the evidence that there never has been a separate "I" at the center.

I’d be happy to accept this fact, but something seems to be getting in the way. I had a suspicion that it might be because I’m constantly caught up in my thoughts, and that the thoughts simply take over this understanding. Maybe that’s the case, but it seems like the problem is somewhere else, since it’s not a matter of how much practice I’ve done, but rather a matter of accepting this fact. In that case, I don’t know why I can’t accept it. But to answer the question itself: nothing would be missing. Everything would be exactly the same in the sense that the reality I experience wouldn’t change, but there would be an understanding that there is no one there.

Can you deny all the evidence showing that there is no separate self, "I", "you"?

I can’t reject all this evidence, but I always feel like I’m “almost” there, as if something gets in the way right when I’m on the verge of understanding it. I really don’t know.

[Noro]

Hi there Idk, really great to hear from you.

But now I’d like to promise that my replies will be within two days at most, and most of the time even sooner. I really need to sort this out and finish this journey faster.

"You" already know that there is no separate "I" that needs to sort this out and finish or not finish this journey faster. This is not the point at all. This "impatience" is an energetic pressure being placed into the bodymind system as a result of some assumption that there is something to sort out, somewhere to go (a journey) and some finishing point that will be achieved.

With no you in the picture, who is going to claim success?
You will never awaken
You will never be enlightened
There is no you!

These thoughts have become too strong, and the real world has started to seem dull and almost mediocre, while the thoughts, on the contrary, have become more and more prominent. I’ve noticed this more recently, which is why I’ve started getting back into meditation. It seems to help.

I definitely think that getting back into meditation is a good idea. Have you read a book called The Attention Revolution by B. Alan Wallace? It is really good and lays out a good structure for taming the monkey mind.

But to answer your question: I’m not entirely sure that self-image and thoughts prove the existence of a “self,” but it all feels very substantial and seems real.

"Feels very substantial and seems real" I suggest you look at what makes it feel substantial.
What is the feeling of substantial? Can you see that this is an interpretation by thought? Where is the substance?

The sense of self is the sense of being and aliveness that will always be around, but there is a mistaken identity of a "me" that has been placed on it through habit.

As I see it, this “self” consists of thoughts and the body, meaning the very sensation of the body. But if you simplify it even further, then it’s just thoughts.

Yes, it is just thoughts, but the thoughts are arising due to a fixation on body sensations and so it is important to keep on including the sensations, which are always movements of contraction and tension.

Is this insisting arising on behalf of a 'someone'?
Yes, it feels like someone is saying “I, I, I, I” and there’s some kind of “hypnosis” (maybe hypnosis is too strong a word, but that’s roughly how it feels, when you once understood that there is no “I,” but then started believing in it again) when there are constant thoughts about an “I” that exists, and you start perceiving it as a fact.

Think of it like this: Lets say you are quietly watching the view outside when suddenly there is a movement of some animal, bird or something and it attracts your attention away from your quiet moment of reflection and you get drawn into this 'intruder' (swap animal for thought!) and then a whole pile of thoughts and associations start circulating.

For you, there is an intellectual knowing that there is no "I", but the psychosomatic intelligence is fighting this. There is an intelligence towards your survival, so the psychosomatic system needs to feel safe. This calls for much curiosity and patience on your part. To BE WITH the "I, I, I, I," in a way that is reassuring, and feel the tension circulating in the body. Feel the fear, be curious> With gentleness and patience your body will begin to relax and the "I, I,I" will become less persistent. Meditation and good breathing will help enormously here.

I would like you to go back to an early exercise that we did. We will let go of looking for a separate "I" which seems to be triggering and allow your bodymind system to learn to relax through simple direct experience.


DIRECT EXPERIENCE OF DAILY ACTIVITIES

Here's an exercise to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Labeling daily activities as simply color/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought. And you can also add breathing to this; (of course breathing could be categorized under sensation/hearing, but I think it is helpful at this point to name it.

Become really present and aware of what is happening right now in your immediate experience:

Lying in bed: simply - sensation
looking at the ceiling: simply - seeing
Hearing sounds: hearing
Thinking thoughts of .......: thinking
Thinking more thoughts: thinking
Feeling tension in body: sensation
Thinking more thoughts: thinking
Breathing deeply : breathing


When you get caught up in intense thoughts it might be good to give yourself five or ten minutes and write down the flow of the senses.

Take your time, take it easy, and let me know how you get on.


Warm regards,
Rowena

[Idk]

Hi Rowena,

Have you read a book called The Attention Revolution by B. Alan Wallace?

No, but I might read this book (if I can find it in the library, of course, but I might order it online)

What is the feeling of substantial? Can you see that this is an interpretation by thought? Where is the substance?

After doing the exercise you recommended throughout the day, I started to realize that, at least for now, I find it difficult to distinguish between the different things I’m observing. What I mean is that with seeing, it’s more or less fine — when I look at something, I can mentally label it as “seeing.” But when it comes to things like sounds, sensations in the body, and thoughts, I realized that they all kind of feel like one single picture that is difficult to separate into different parts. It’s almost like one big “sensation,” and because of that, all the thoughts that come up feel very real. I basically just described the combination that creates a separate “I” (thoughts and the body), but yeah, this difficulty in distinguishing these things and the strong association between them is what makes it feel so substantial. But of course, I’m not saying the exercise doesn’t work tho. I’m usually like this with new exercises (or, in this case, an exercise I’m doing again): at first you don’t really understand it and it feels difficult, but then at some point (hopefully that will happen here too), a gentle understanding just kind of comes to you and you start to see what’s going on.

[Noro]

But when it comes to things like sounds, sensations in the body, and thoughts, I realized that they all kind of feel like one single picture that is difficult to separate into different parts. It’s almost like one big “sensation,” and because of that, all the thoughts that come up feel very real.

Ok, start slowly and deliberately with each sense. Put on music, listen specifically for any sounds nearby. Label each sound: Hearing.

Feel your body sitting on the chair: sensation
Tightness in chest: sensation
Etc. Etc……..

Let me know how you get on.

Warm regards,
Rowena

[Noro]

Hello Idk,

I went back a couple of posts on our thread and I found I had missed some of your answers to questions that really are not the answers being asked for, you are consistently offering answers from a conceptual framework. We are not looking from a conceptual framework here. We are using DIRECT EXPERIENCE to confirm or deny. Do you remember the COLORED SOCKS exercise? Here it is to refresh your mind:


COLORED SOCKS - HOW TO LOOK FOR THE NO SELF IN THE EXERCISES

There is a BIG difference between knowing/believing that there is no self, and seeing that there is no self.

If you can’t see for yourself directly, you cannot describe what you see in your own words.
Here is an example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what colour socks (or underwear) you are wearing right now you have two ways to answer:
1. You can think about it, trying to remember, or guessing what colour they are. Or,
2. You can have a look at your socks and see what colour they ACTUALLY are!
You will agree that only by looking you could be 100% certain, right?

For the purpose of this inquiry, it is crucial that you are clear about this difference in the two ways of answering and stick only to the second way. We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on. We are only interested in Direct (Actual) Experience (DE/AE)- the actual experience that is right here and right now.

Now for the questions:

OK, but does a self-image and thoughts about a 'me' proving the actual existence of a separate, independent "me"?

..... But to answer your question: I’m not entirely sure that self-image and thoughts prove the existence of a “self,” but it all feels very substantial and seems real.

I would like a YES/NO answer to this question.

Is this insisting arising on behalf of a 'someone'?

Yes, it feels like someone is saying “I, I, I, I” and there’s some kind of “hypnosis” (maybe hypnosis is too strong a word, but that’s roughly how it feels, when you once understood that there is no “I,” but then started believing in it again) when there are constant thoughts about an “I” that exists, and you start perceiving it as a fact.

Please answer this question again. Look in your DIRECT EXPERIENCE as to whether you can find a 'someone' separate that is insisting. Where is it hiding?

Please say what would actually be missing in your life if you accepted the evidence that there never has been a separate "I" at the center.

I’d be happy to accept this fact, but something seems to be getting in the way. I had a suspicion that it might be because I’m constantly caught up in my thoughts, and that the thoughts simply take over this understanding. Maybe that’s the case, but it seems like the problem is somewhere else, since it’s not a matter of how much practice I’ve done, but rather a matter of accepting this fact. In that case, I don’t know why I can’t accept it.

This is all thought content that has nothing to do with answering the question. Your answer below was correct:

But to answer the question itself: nothing would be missing. Everything would be exactly the same in the sense that the reality I experience wouldn’t change, but there would be an understanding that there is no one there.

What needs understanding? Where is that someone?
It seems like there is a someone is a thought.
It feels like there is a someone is an interpretation of felt body sensation.
Does a thought prove a someone?
Does a body sensation prove a someone?
Can they not be simply noticed as they appear in direct experience? Simply thoughts, simply sensations?

Please keep on with the meditation of labelling sensory experience by identifying the sense field only:
THINKING; SEEING; HEARING; SMELLING; TASTING; TOUCHING:

If you would like to share your thoughts, please identify that it is a thought that is simply arising from where thoughts arise (And we don't know, or need to know how that works) Thoughts arise from a body-mind, like dogs bark and cats meow.
Has a separate thinker ever been found? NO! Thinking is happening
Has a separate hearer ever been found? NO! Hearing is happening.
Has a separate 'see-er' ever been found? NO! Seeing is happening. Etc. Etc.

The doubt and confusion are a natural arising out of a system that is re-calibrating. Keep curious, let go of conceptual thinking, only trust what is in your DIRECT EXPERIENCE.

Warm regards,
Rowena