Seeking guidance.

[graceabounds]

I definitely notice the pull of thought. It happens without my control although it feels like there is control in thinking.

Could you explain/describe this further? What is the control in thinking?

There is definitely a sense of urgency with some thoughts. Certainly the ones that i have placed meaning or judgement on.

So there is a thought about a thought that makes it urgent?

A record that keeps playing that I keep playing with my worry and concern.

How do I lose concern? How do I just stop? I want to but struggle with ones that question judgement, values, beliefs, what thoughts I should or shouldn't have.

Who is struggling? Who wants to just stop? Look!

[JFK1974]

Could you explain/describe this further? What is the control in thinking

I recognize that thoughts appear. I am not doing it. But it feels like I am the one thinking. At least the thoughts it feels like I want to think. For example, like reading these posts. It is something I look forward to doing and want to contemplate and explore. However, I have an intrusive thought I don’t want to have. One that seems to judge about another thought, then for whatever reason I get stuck.

Does that make sense?

There is definitely a sense of urgency with some thoughts. Certainly the ones that i have placed meaning or judgement on.
So there is a thought about a thought that makes it urgent?

Yes, I guess. “You have to attend this now!” “This thought is importat.” Body sensations come with those types of thoughts.

A record that keeps playing that I keep playing with my worry and concern.

How do I lose concern? How do I just stop? I want to but struggle with ones that question judgement, values, beliefs, what thoughts I should or shouldn't have.
Who is struggling? Who wants to just stop? Look!

I’ve look at this so much. I don’t even know. All it seems is someone/something which feels like me is struggling. Has discomfort in the body. Has thoughts that tear him down. Tries to go about his day just living and this mind is constantly critical. Like a parent or teacher, judging every move. Every thought.

And, I am so hyper focused on what it is saying like I can’t stop even though I recognize it is a bunch of bull sh!t. Like in the Odyssey, The Sirens. Not sure if you read or heard about it. I get hypnotized by thinking.

Sorry, I am being a victim. Trying to be vulnerable instead of a victim.

[graceabounds]

No need to apologize—this is raw, and that’s exactly where you need to be.

I recognize that thoughts appear. I am not doing it. But it feels like I am the one thinking. At least the thoughts it feels like I want to think.

Please close your eyes and listen to any sound; then tell where the hearer of sound is.

Please close your eyes and touch any object, feel its texture; then tell where the feeler of that texture is.

Are the thinker, thought, and thinking separate?

When seeing something, is there any division between seeing, seer, and the seen?
Are these three separate?

All it seems is someone/something which feels like me is struggling. Has discomfort in the body. Has thoughts that tear him down. Tries to go about his day just living and this mind is constantly critical. Like a parent or teacher, judging every move. Every thought.

Right now, where is this “someone” struggling? Not the thoughts about the struggle. Not the sensations of discomfort. Not the stories of being judged. But the actual one who is struggling—can you find them?

Look carefully. The thoughts tear “you” down. Who is being torn down? A thought attacks—another thought resists. Sensation arises—more thoughts pile on. But where, in all of this, is the one at the center?

Don’t think about it. Look.

[JFK1974]

Please close your eyes and listen to any sound; then tell where the hearer of sound is.

Please close your eyes and touch any object, feel its texture; then tell where the feeler of that texture is.

Are the thinker, thought, and thinking separate?

When seeing something, is there any division between seeing, seer, and the seen?
Are these three separate?

I saw this pretty clearly this morning- experiencing- hearing, thinking, feeling. No division. One fluid movement. I “watch”, “see”, “observe” the movement. Or experience it.

The most challenging is thinking. Thinking pulls you in. Consumes you or tricks you in a more subtle manner than senses. Before I knew it, I was deep in a series of thoughts, thinking I was thinking.

Right now, where is this “someone” struggling? Not the thoughts about the struggle. Not the sensations of discomfort. Not the stories of being judged. But the actual one who is struggling—can you find them?

This was interesting. I see it’s the thoughts and sensations that create “struggle.” My experience is that I “experience” the struggle that is going on between thinking and sensations.

I had a glimpse for a brief period of being apart from it. Seeing the play in front of me. I guess the no self. I am not doing any of this only watching or experiencing.

I noticed when sensations arises, thoughts that are irritating or distressful would appear. Like a distraction away from the sensations. Pretty amazing how it works. Crafty. Sneaky. Both played off each other (if I personify them)

Look carefully. The thoughts tear “you” down. Who is being torn down? A thought attacks—another thought resists. Sensation arises—more thoughts pile on. But where, in all of this, is the one at the center?

Don’t think about it. Look.

This is how I experience it-

Three entities. Thought-Me-Sensations. I am in middle. It’s an elaborate game where I experience their interaction. Maybe not the case but that what it feels like.

I do see the distressing thought and then resistant thought. That was clear. In other words, not my doing. Same with sensations, not my doing. The one experiencing feels like me. Like a person being interrogated in the movies. A prisoner of war. I am in a seat, tied up, and being abused:) Not funny but that’s the analogy that it seems to be playing out.

[JFK1974]

To add, the person in chair, I feel helpless to it.

[graceabounds]

That’s a damn good breakdown of what’s happening. The whole setup—the “me” caught between thoughts and sensations—is a construct. It feels real, but when you break it down, what’s actually there?

I noticed when sensations arises, thoughts that are irritating or distressful would appear. Like a distraction away from the sensations.

When this happens, stay with the sensations… this is where the gold is. Fully feel. Is there anything in the raw sensation that in any way requires a label or description to be experienced?

Look at this image of the prisoner in the chair. Who is tied up? Who is helpless? Not the thoughts—those come and go. Not the sensations—those arise and shift. Not even the resistance, because that too is just another happening.

So where is the prisoner? Where is this “you” that is trapped?

And if there is no one actually tied up—if ‘you’ is just thoughts arguing with themselves—then what is actually happening right now?

[JFK1974]

That’s a damn good breakdown of what’s happening. The whole setup—the “me” caught between thoughts and sensations—is a construct. It feels real, but when you break it down, what’s actually there?

Thank you. Had some clarity and insight yesterday. Not so much today. Challenging day at work.

When this happens, stay with the sensations… this is where the gold is. Fully feel. Is there anything in the raw sensation that in any way requires a label or description to be experienced?

Sensations don’t require a label. Only creates more suffering. Getting better at this. Gold? Where can I find it? Half-kidding:)

Look at this image of the prisoner in the chair. Who is tied up? Who is helpless? Not the thoughts—those come and go. Not the sensations—those arise and shift. Not even the resistance, because that too is just another happening.

So where is the prisoner? Where is this “you” that is trapped?

And if there is no one actually tied up—if ‘you’ is just thoughts arguing with themselves—then what is actually happening right

I am confused by this every time. What am I looking for? I feel a me that is in the middle of thoughts and sensations. However, I feel a softening and acceptance. Not all the time but more with arising thoughts and sensations.

Just don’t get the no self. Or it’s not resonating. Please advise. I appreciate all your help. Last week has been busy. Certainly today. Earliest I had a chance to respond. Thank you!

[JFK1974]

Think maybe I see what we are looking for.

Noticed today- the mind running incessantly. The body firing its normal sensations. I was there. Wondering how or what is happening. If I pause and listen and watch, I see an internal kind of a play. A story playing.

The no self still not sure. Feel like a third party to this back and forth interaction.

[graceabounds]

Hello,

I feel a softening and acceptance.

Yes, all this questioning is thoughts layered on top, but what is is unfolding naturally and beautifully on its own.

Regarding the no self, there really is nothing you don't already 'get'... we just continue until it is no longer losable.
Is there any doubt, outside of a thought?

Noticed today- the mind running incessantly. The body firing its normal sensations. I was there. Wondering how or what is happening. If I pause and listen and watch, I see an internal kind of a play. A story playing.

Nice noticing. Look directly.
Is there actually a separate entity apart from the movement of thoughts and sensations? Or just the play itself with no one watching?

If you still feel like there's a 'me' in the middle, pinpoint it. Not as an idea, not as a sense of presence--these are just more appearances. Where, exactly, is this 'me' that is apart from the flow? Find it!

And, since exploring the body was supportive a week or two ago, here is an even deeper investigation of the body. Please follow each step, don't leave out any. Take your time. Don't move to the next step until the previous one is clearly seen. Repeat the exercise several times.

Stand in front of a large mirror.

(1) First, close the eyes and feel the sensations labelled ‘body’.

(2) Then open the eyes and look into the mirror while still paying attention to the sensations.
Is there any connection between the felt sensations and the image in the mirror?
Or just thoughts (and/or mental images) suggest that there is?

(3) While still paying attention to the sensations move one hand and observe the movement from the mirror.
Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and image of movement in the mirror?

(4) Now do the same movement with the hand, but this time look at the hand directly, not from the mirror.
Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and the image ‘of movement’? Or only thoughts suggest it?

(5) Now, pay attention only to the image in the mirror.
Does the image by itself suggest in any way that is ‘you’ or ‘your body’?
Does the image itself suggest in any way that it is a ‘body’ at all?
Or are there only colours and shapes?

(6) Where the mirror ends, some parts of the body (probably legs) cannot be seen.
Just by the image in the mirror, is there any ‘knowledge’ that there must be legs, or only thoughts and mental images suggest so?

(7) Now turn away from the mirror and look forward (don’t look directly to any body parts).
Is there a ‘body’ anywhere when all thoughts and images are ignored, or are there only sensations?

(8) Start to walk slowly.
Is there a ‘body walking’, or are there only sensations?
Is there actual experience of ‘walking’ at all?
Or just THOUGHTS ABOUT ‘walking’?
Can such a thing as ‘body’ be found OR just THOUGHTS ABOUT a ‘body’?
Can such a thing as ‘walking’ be found?

(9) Are the sensations localized in space, like ‘going through the room’; OR is there only an image that is labelled ‘room’ and appearing sensations without any location?

Feel like a third party to this back and forth interaction.

GO DIRECT. There isn't anything here to figure out. Just let go and step fully into the story.

[JFK1974]

Only got a chance to look at first part. In morning, going through the investigation. Pretty excited to investigate it.

Yes, all this questioning is thoughts layered on top, but what is is unfolding naturally and beautifully on its own.

Regarding the no self, there really is nothing you don't already 'get'... we just continue until it is no longer losable.
Is there any doubt, outside of a thought?

Lot of layers!

Nice noticing. Look directly.
Is there actually a separate entity apart from the movement of thoughts and sensations? Or just the play itself with no one watching?

If you still feel like there's a 'me' in the middle, pinpoint it. Not as an idea, not as a sense of presence--these are just more appearances. Where, exactly, is this 'me' that is apart from the flow? Find it!

I meditated a few hours ago. And focused on the movement of thoughts and sensations. There I saw for a brief time that that is all there is. Thinking, feeling, hearing, …..movement.

Thank you again! Very grateful for you. I will report back in morning about the investigation.

[JFK1974]

mirror.

(1) First, close the eyes and feel the sensations labelled ‘body’.

(2) Then open the eyes and look into the mirror while still paying attention to the sensations.
Is there any connection between the felt sensations and the image in the mirror?
Or just thoughts (and/or mental images) suggest that there is?

(3) While still paying attention to the sensations move one hand and observe the movement from the mirror.
Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and image of movement in the mirror?

(4) Now do the same movement with the hand, but this time look at the hand directly, not from the mirror.
Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and the image ‘of movement’? Or only thoughts suggest it?

(5) Now, pay attention only to the image in the mirror.
Does the image by itself suggest in any way that is ‘you’ or ‘your body’?
Does the image itself suggest in any way that it is a ‘body’ at all?
Or are there only colours and shapes?

(6) Where the mirror ends, some parts of the body (probably legs) cannot be seen.
Just by the image in the mirror, is there any ‘knowledge’ that there must be legs, or only thoughts and mental images suggest so?

(7) Now turn away from the mirror and look forward (don’t look directly to any body parts).
Is there a ‘body’ anywhere when all thoughts and images are ignored, or are there only sensations?

(8) Start to walk slowly.
Is there a ‘body walking’, or are there only sensations?
Is there actual experience of ‘walking’ at all?
Or just THOUGHTS ABOUT ‘walking’?
Can such a thing as ‘body’ be found OR just THOUGHTS ABOUT a ‘body’?
Can such a thing as ‘walking’ be found?

(9) Are the sensations localized in space, like ‘going through the room’; OR is there only an image that is labelled ‘room’ and appearing sensations without any location?

I did the investigation. What I just realized after searching for who or what gets frustrated is nothing. Or the body-mind itself is frustrated. Frustration is thoughts interpreted from sensations or vice versa. Not sure. Wouldn’t say it’s a relief in any respect. However, something is very agitated and have been looking to pinpoint what is agitated. I look and there’s no logical anything that should be. It’s playing on itself. Has to be. “I” am here. Watching the agitation. Feeling it but not causing it. It’s happening on its own not different when good feelings and thoughts are occurring. It’s on autopilot seemingly until the next distressing thoughts/event appears.

Question is will it ever stop? Why no peace with recognition? Why still discomfort or fear?

The record keeps playing.

[graceabounds]

Brilliant. You see it—frustration is just an interpretation of raw sensation, a loop of thought playing on itself. But notice this: who is waiting for peace?

The mind expected that recognition would bring peace. It didn’t. That’s because the seeking mechanism itself IS the agitation.

Where, specifically in the body, is what is labeled as agitation? Feel into it, all the way. Get curious, learn all its edges and borders.

The record keeps playing because there’s still an expectation that it should stop. Drop even that. Let there be agitation, frustration, restlessness! Let it be seen fully, without a watcher needing it to change.

[JFK1974]

Really try to find the source of agitation. Got to the point during meditation earlier that the “I” or center has to be a thought as well. A movement. Like a thought or sensation. Which now brings up the question, if that is so, am I nothing but a thought.

I watched with intent of being without thought. What if there is no thought, would this sensation go? Which of course are thoughts. I sat. Felt a lot of energy. Without a thought, there’s no me to an extent. Maybe the just a part of the rising and falling. I don’t know.

But, something knows something. “I” am something that can observe, be aware of thoughts and sensations. What? I don’t know.

I see my seeking if the cause of pain. However, can I even not seek? I have more questions than answers right now.

In reference to the investigation, I am going to repeat it tomorrow when I have enough time to truly look. I rushed through it.

Thank you and look forward to your response.

[graceabounds]

Got to the point during meditation earlier that the “I” or center has to be a thought as well.

Yes!

The recognition that the “I” is a thought, a movement, just another arising, is IT. But then the mind steps in and says, “If ‘I’ is just a thought, then am I nothing but a thought?”—which is just another thought! And there was an attachment to following it. See how slippery this is?

Circling back to our previous investigation:
Where do thoughts come from? Where do they go to? Is there any way to control which thought comes next? To only think certain thoughts? Is there a thinker anywhere to be found?

I watched with intent of being without thought. What if there is no thought, would this sensation go? Which of course are thoughts. I sat. Felt a lot of energy.

Yes. The energy, the experience remains.

It is impossible to get rid of thoughts, the arising of thoughts are part of direct experience. It is the content of the thought that is not direct experience. A thought about “I” may as well be a thought about “unicorn in galoshes.”

Without a thought, there’s no me to an extent.

To an extent? To what extent? Where is the sense of self without a thought referring to a sense of self?

But, something knows something

Do you see the trick? That’s another thought trying to re-establish a knower. Instead of accepting raw experience, the mind is desperately trying to put a “someone” back in control. Drop that assumption.

“I” am something that can observe, be aware of thoughts and sensations

Is that true? Or is it just another thought claiming ownership?

Look right now—without referring to memory, without relying on thought—can you actually find an observer?! Or is there just observing happening?

If you say, “I am aware of thoughts and sensations,” pause. Is there an actual, separate “I” doing the awareness, or is there just awareness happening?

See the trick? The mind is trying to smuggle in a separate entity—a watcher, a knower. But when you really look, all that can be found is the raw happening of experience. No owner. No observer. Just this, as it is.

Sit with this. Look again. Report back—what do you actually find?

can I even not seek?

Who is asking this? Seeking is only needed if something is missing. Is anything missing in this moment when you aren’t referring to thought?


You’re on the edge of something REAL here. Don’t let the mind pull you back into abstraction. When you repeat the investigation, go slower, look deeper. See if there’s truly an entity there—or just thoughts claiming ownership of experience. Keep reporting back.

[JFK1974]

Becca,

I am still in the game. Broken record, the last few weeks has been rough. Time has been limited. I am staying up on investigating.

I want to report back some findings. Sorry about no quotes.

Here is what I’ve seen-

Without a thought, there is only this. Only silence. No John. No person.

I see what you mean about awareness being a trick of the mind. This is mostly an intellectual understanding though. Still seems that if behind the thoughts and sensations is an observer not “awaring.” If that makes sense.

I did notice in direct experience yesterday whatever awareness is or isn’t, it’s nothing. A blankness. I really sunk into the experience saw for the first time possibly there is nothing here. A contradiction from above but it was like “shit, there is nothing here.”

One thing I’ve notice is the ability to be with discomfort more without trying to distract. Like I want to stare into the discomfort. It’s not as fearful.

A thought. No clue where it comes from. Literally seems like it is a magic trick. Arises from thin air. I also can watch the movement of the thinker/thought. It’s pretty fascinating. Maddening as well.

Again very grateful. I feel I am in a better place since receiving your help. After this week, my schedule frees up tremendously. Looking forward to having more focused time to continue to see more and more.


Thank you,


John