Cutting through the veil

[jrm72]

Morning Debora,

For me there's a few layers to this -

There's obviously all the thoughts.
Then there's the thoughts about the thoughts.
Then there's what's happening.


On some level there has to be something in control, because this apparent body walks through apparent doors and not into walls. This will continue to be the case until it isn't.
So everything gets taken care of in the way it always seems to have been, however good or bad.

There's the layer of illusion that this mind/body is making the rational (and sometimes not so rational decisions) to deal with whatever reality is.

There's the layer of thoughts of fear that if there is no doer (controller) then anything could and will happen and life will fall apart.

The thoughts can add as many layers to this as you like.

In the end, when looking, there appears to be stimuli (seeing, hearing etc).
There appears to be responses (fight, flight, freeze, focus etc)
And this is all just happening.

❤️🖖

[Elk1]

Hi James,

I resonate with the depiction of the layers you posted.
The added layers of thought, of then identifying with what is happening, the content of thoughts, the sensory input. These extra added layers grasp at what appears, what's there and then there's this 'this is me, mine, not me' process of identification(?) happening.
And responsibility is assuming that there is a controller behind the processes. It makes things mine or not mine.
I have used very of the the words heavy/light. For me, the extra added layers of thought, the grasping identification adds the serious heaviness. Seeing through them as illusion corresponds to this lightness. In terms of how this is experienced.

[jrm72]

Afternoon Debora,

How real does this all feel?

(by real, I'm leaning towards experiential rather than intellectual)


Also, there's a zoom group you may find useful -


06:00 AM Canberra, Melbourne, Sydney time
Please note that it's always the same time on the same link
Click here to Join Zoom Meeting
https://us02web.zoom.us/j/86991485768?p ... 12Um5DQT09
Meeting ID: 869 9148 5768
Passcode: 083035

❤️🖖

[Elk1]

Hi James,
Thank you for the link, is it daily?

How real does this all feel?

It does feel pretty real. I think some of these insights I already had on an intellectual level before and then they seemed far away in a sense.
Now whenever the thought arises: what is there that is e.g. sitting, it has a distinct bodily sensation coming up, in a sense that it isn't on the intellectual level but on a more experiential one.
Regarding responsibility, it's something in between. Logically it makes sense given my no-self experiences that there must follow that there's is no responsibility. And to a tiny bit it comes also to direct experience. But it doesn't have the same vibrancy or fullness as the thoughts/actions.

[jrm72]

Morning Debora,

The meeting is at 6am on a Monday morning in Australia, which makes it 9am on a Sunday night for me. There's usually 3 or 4 guides talking with a group of people at all different stages of their journey. It can help deepen the experience.

You've seen, amongst other things, that actions happen without any control.
You've seen that thoughts come as they please.

It's coming to terms with the consequences of what this really means that is the next step.

❤️🖖

[Elk1]

Hi James,

I will check the meeting out on Sunday then, should be 10pm for me I think.

It's coming to terms with the consequences of what this really means that is the next step.

Yes, I agree. And one of these consequences is the dissolution of this usually felt responsibility in the ultimate sense, right?
How do I come to terms with it?

[jrm72]

Morning Debora,

How do I come to terms with it?

Stay in contact with DE as much as possible and remember every thought is a story.

One way I've heard it put is to take things seriously but not literally.

Communicate with me as much as you need. Let me know anywhere you feel stuck.

Looking back at my own experience, the realisation wasn't a lightning bolt, one day my guide said to me "is it you just not wanting to accept and holding yourself back" and I went "oh".

Another story was a person who was told - The mosquito bite of searching won't heal until you stop scratching it.

If any guide here knew the exact words to say to you at the right time they would, but until those magic words appear, we keep working.

❤️🖖

[jrm72]

Morning Debora,

Lovely to see you last night.

You mentioned insights.

So where are you now?

❤️🖖

[Elk1]

Hi James,
Yes I'm glad I joined last night.
The distinction between consequences of my actions (cause&effect) and responsibility became quite clear to me. And the connection of responsibility to morality really helped to see a reason to why responsibility had a different feel for me than e.g. thoughts or decisions.
It seems like now I can create a bit of space between the effects of an action and responsibility for it.
For example the client appointment I had today I could experience the responsibility for the conversation with a different emotional valence. It is part of my job, a consequence of my work and of whatever I (don't) say, yet it is this moral layer added to the experience of two people sitting there interacting.
Sorting responsibility within the pile of narratives.
Thus, insight further how so much (I want to say everything but that's a string word) is a narrative, under the illusion that it is more than that.
It was also insightful to see how others struggle with interpersonal topics ,or topics connected to game/guilt (humiliation) and that within certain interpersonal interaction it is easier to get caught up in habitual patterns.

[jrm72]

Hi Debora,

My I, was/is a nerd, a genuine read everything, memory like flypaper, academic geek.
Psychology, philosophy, neurology, physiology, non duallity, ethics, logical posivitism, yeah bring it all on. An over rationalising, argumentative, fault finding machine. Look me up in the archive, list by number of posts, that's me at the top, over 800 posts of avoidance. The first guide I had gave up on me, the long suffering second somehow stuck it out.

I have to resist going down my blackhole of intellectualism and dragging you with me.
So this next pointer may be the hardest thing I ask you to do (and for me to do as well)

- RELAX

Take a couple of deep breaths, don't even focus on sensations, just let them flow.
Let me know what the body is saying.

❤️🖖

[jrm72]

Morning Debora,

This came up for me -

Think of it this way, if something I say doesn't make sense or feels difficult to grasp, then it's what I've said that's wrong, I need to find a better way to say it. As with pretty much everything about this journey, things don't make sense until they do. It's like learning to ride a bike or drive a car, it seems impossible until you can, and then it's like - what was the problem.

❤️🖖

[Elk1]

Good Evening James,

I was following the pointer of RELAX for the past days. Usually, it turned out that there was some tension in my body, my shoulders a bit lifted, my jaw a bit clenched or my forehead wrinkled etc. Some of the times it was very difficult to stay relaxed for more than a few seconds, immediately distractions running up and down my mind and tensing again to think of this or that or to do this task next. Yet sometimes it stuck a bit and created again this lightness and easiness.
In a way it is not something new to me, I know this very well though my meditation & yoga practice. Yet I can never have enough reminders in my life. I can relate to what you say, its not an easy thing to do for me unless I consciously make space for it and practice.

Think of it this way, if something I say doesn't make sense or feels difficult to grasp, then it's what I've said that's wrong

Thank you, I will keep this in mind.

[jrm72]

Good Evening Debora,

Relaxing is good and sounds like you're getting in touch with your body and sensations.

When you're relaxed and in touch internally, how does the external world feel?

❤️🖖

[jrm72]

Hello Debora,

Since you mention you meditate, try these -

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ksba3zhi9uuz ... hsk1a?dl=0


❤️🖖

[jrm72]

Hello Debora,

Hope all is as well as possible.
Make contact anytime.

❤️🖖