I am here because I couldn't not have been

[Kalyani]

Hi Warissem,

Here are my answers

Is there any connection between the felt sensations and the image in the mirror?
Or just thoughts (and/or mental images) suggest that there is?

There is no connection between felt sensations and the image in the mirror. It is clear.

Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and image of movement in the mirror?

There is not any connection. They are 2 separate things - seeing the movement and feeling the sensation are not linked. One does not follow from the other.

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4) Now do the same movement with the hand, but this time look at the hand directly, not from the mirror.

Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and the image ‘of movement’? Or only thoughts suggest it?

No connection. Even thoughts don’t suggest it when I do this, clearly no connection.

Does the image by itself suggest in any way that is ‘you’ or ‘your body’?

No, the image alone doesn’t suggest it. When I decide to move my body and the image follows, that suggests that it is my body.

Does the image itself suggest in any way that it is a ‘body’ at all?
Or are there only colours and shapes?

The image itself is what everyone would call a body. The image is a bunch of colours and shapes, but so are all the objects we see. Yet we give them names and agree that trees are trees, buildings are buildings, bodies are bodies.

Just by the image in the mirror, is there any ‘knowledge’ that there must be legs, or only thoughts and mental images suggest so?

Just by the image in the mirror, there is no knowledge that there must be legs.

(7) Now turn away from the mirror and look forward (don’t look directly to any body parts).

Is there a ‘body’ anywhere when all thoughts and images are ignored, or are there only sensations?

Only sensations, no body is to be found.

Is there a ‘body walking’, or are there only sensations?
Is there actual experience of ‘walking’ at all?
Or just THOUGHTS ABOUT ‘walking’?

There are only sensations, the experience is labelled walking. But in actuality it’s changing sensations in the body and changing visuals seen through the eyes. There is a thought or a label “walking” used to describe that experience.

Can such a thing as ‘body’ be found OR just THOUGHTS ABOUT a ‘body’?

Our senses only register some parts of the experience called body in any given moment and not the entire experience. What I mean is we can’t see the entire body, while also sensing the entire body for example. However, I hesitate to say there isn’t such a thing as a body. I see other people’s bodies as well, can touch/smell/sense them etc.

Can such a thing as ‘walking’ be found?

There are a bunch of sensations/visuals that we call walking.

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9) Are the sensations localized in space, like ‘going through the room’; OR is there only an image that is labelled ‘room’ and appearing sensations without any location?

No, it’s impossible to feel the location in which sensations are occurring, the knowledge of being in a different location is via seeing that the picture of the room is changing.

[warissem]

Hi Kalyani

You have done good observations but there are some comments.

No, the image alone doesn’t suggest it. When I decide to move my body and the image follows,

The illusion, as I said previously, resides in thoughts. Seeing is so simple : just check thoughts with what is here in direct experience. "I decide " : is there really you which decides? Give a look in direct experience : simple, if there is a you, describe it.
"to move my body" : is it your body? Does it happen that there was a you before this body was born and it was given to you?

The image itself is what everyone would call a body. The image is a bunch of colours and shapes, but so are all the objects we see. Yet we give them names and agree that trees are trees, buildings are buildings, bodies are bodies.

Yes but image of a tree in a mirror is not the tree itself. it is the same with the image of a body in a mirror, it is just an image.

Can such a thing as ‘body’ be found OR just THOUGHTS ABOUT a ‘body’?

Our senses only register some parts of the experience called body in any given moment and not the entire experience. What I mean is we can’t see the entire body, while also sensing the entire body for example. However, I hesitate to say there isn’t such a thing as a body. I see other people’s bodies as well, can touch/smell/sense them etc.

Really! Have you seen bodies? What is the one of the five senses which used to see a body knowing that :
Seeing : colors and shapes
Hearing : sounds
Smelling : smells
Tasting : tastes
Touching : sensations.

Here is an exercise which points out the difference between direct experience and content of thought.

There are two types of thoughts:
(1) Thoughts with words “Here is cup”
(2) Visual mental images of a ‘cup’

So I invite you to do this exercise:
Think of a cup. Get a very clear picture in your mind. See clearly the size, shape, colour and volume of the cup. Notice whether it is decorated or plain. Notice whether it has a handle. Notice whether it is heavy or fragile. Do you have a clear picture in mind?

Now, can you physically grasp that image of a cup?
Can you pour tea into it?
Can you drink from it?

Is there a ‘real’ cup or just an image of a cup?
Is there an appearing mental image?
Is the content of the mental image (the cup) ‘real’?

The thoughts and mental images are real only as arising thoughts and mental images, their ‘presence’ cannot be denied. However their contents, what are they about are not ‘real’, they are just fantasies. Can you see this?

Over the course of the next day or so, I'd like you to notice the content of thoughts. Whenever there is an arising thought or mental image, check whether its content (what it’s about) is really happening, or the content is just pure imagination. Let me know how it goes.

Warissem

[Kalyani]

Give a look in direct experience : simple, if there is a you, describe it.
"to move my body" : is it your body? Does it happen that there was a you before this body was born and it was given to you?

We started talking about the body because I wanted to find out how to make sure I am not the body. I could describe the body and say this is me. Is it my body? - well the experiencing of everything is happening through this body’s sense organs and brain. I don’t know if there was a me before this body was born and it was given to me. I don’t know if this is so or not so.

Yes but image of a tree in a mirror is not the tree itself. it is the same with the image of a body in a mirror, it is just an image.

I understand now, I didn’t understand the question the first time.

Really! Have you seen bodies? What is the one of the five senses which used to see a body knowing that :
Seeing : colors and shapes
Hearing : sounds
Smelling : smells
Tasting : tastes
Touching : sensations.

I have seen the bodies yes :) I see colours and shapes which I can identify as bodies. Just like all the other objects. I think you are loosing me here, maybe I’m not understanding what you mean by this question.


About the cup exercise. I did it the first time you gave it to me and of course I can’t use/drink from an imaginary cup. You said last time this can be applied to the body. But I didn’t understand it that time. Because I can use the body to do things, I can touch it, smell it etc. so I don’t understand how the body is the same as the imaginary cup. Could you help me understand this part?

Your questions suggest there aren’t bodies just thoughts about bodies. I don’t see that or how that’s true. I believe you, but I can’t see it or figure that out.

[warissem]

Hi Kalyani

We started talking about the body because I wanted to find out how to make sure I am not the body.

What(to not say who) is seeking right now ? Is the body seeking to see through the illusion of a separate self?

I could describe the body and say this is me. Is it my body? –

Then there is a “me” which is the body and a second “me” to which the body belongs Is there a “me” outside of thoughts?

well the experiencing of everything is happening through this body’s sense organs and brain.

All this is a train of thoughts, do you see it?

I don’t know if there was a me before this body was born and it was given to me. I don’t know if this is so or not so.

It is a good place to be “I don’t know”.

Your questions suggest there aren’t bodies just thoughts about bodies. I don’t see that or how that’s true. I believe you, but I can’t see it or figure that out.

Please, don’t believe what I say, check it through direct experience.
Here is an exercise to clarify about all what is said about the body, the cup or whatever object. I hope it will help.
Have a look at an apple. If you have a ‘real’ apple, you can use it for this exercise.

When looking at an apple, there's colour; a thought saying ‘apple’; and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple."
What is known for sure? Colour is known and thoughts are known.

What about the content of thoughts, what they describe?
Actual experience does not refer to thoughts ABOUT something…because that is only just more thought. Actual experience is sound, thought, colour, smell, taste, sensation.

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?
Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT can't be found in actual experience.

This is what is meant by ‘looking in actual experience ‘. What you know for sure, and, is always here.

Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known
Colour labelled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known
However, is an apple actually known?

Best for you

[Kalyani]

We started talking about the body because I wanted to find out how to make sure I am not the body.

What(to not say who) is seeking right now ? Is the body seeking to see through the illusion of a separate self?

I don't know who and why is even seeking, but it is not the body seeking to see through the illusion :)

Then there is a “me” which is the body and a second “me” to which the body belongs Is there a “me” outside of thoughts?

No, there is no me outside of thoughts.

well the experiencing of everything is happening through this body’s sense organs and brain.

All this is a train of thoughts, do you see it?

Yes, I see it.

I did the apple exercise and it helped clarify what direct experience means. I understood what is meant by it finally. I saw how the apple can't actually be known, and same goes for the body. It is like object names are labels that include various components of an experience, but it is a description applied to a number of experiences that can't all be experienced at once, so the object can't be known in its entirety.

I can say in DIRECT experience there absolutely is no "me", there are only thoughts about a me. "I" can't be found in direct experience, this is 100% clear. Me and everything about me are just thoughts.

Just to recap everything. There is no me in direct experience. "I" live in thoughts as a concept with lots of thoughts about it. Thoughts come and go on their own and aren't controlled or directed by a "me". Thoughts also don't control what happens, they are there describing what is happening as opposed to directing it. So the "I" thought is not controlling anything either.

[warissem]

Hi Kalyani

Glad to know that it is clear that there is no you, no separate self.

Go for a walk in nature and observe the flow of life, other people in the light of the seeing that there is no me, no separate self. Let me know about what is going on.

Let me know when you are ready for the final questions or if there is something to investigate.

Best for you

[Kalyani]

Hi Warissem,

I haven’t done the walk in nature yet.

Things have been a little bit different since the last looking. Everything is pretty well exactly the same. But I know that there isn’t a me. Who is the me that knows? It’s just a knowing. So everything happens in exact the same way as before and as if there is a me. But at the same time I know there isn’t a me, “me” is just another thought. It was seen clearly it and it’s easy to recall it.

I also noticed a change that whenever worrisome or troubling thoughts come, they don’t stick around like they used to. They come and quickly pass, because another reminder comes right away that there isn’t anyone who can do anything about any of it.

Let me wait a few more days and I will let you know if anything comes up or if I want to answer the final questions.

Thank you!

[warissem]

Good morning

Look at the flow of life during all your daily activities.

Best for you

[Kalyani]

Hi Warissem,

I took some time. I don’t know if there is anything else to investigate. Everything is pretty much the same as always. There hasn’t been seeking. But there have been frequent reminders to look at the direct experience.

The only difference I really notice is that the negative or worrying thoughts don’t have a grip on me as they used to.

Should we do the final questions?

[warissem]

Hi Kalyani

These are the final questions. We will see what comes up.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision,
intention,
free will,
choice and control.

What makes things happen? How does it work? Give examples from experience.

What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

Best for you

[Kalyani]

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No there is no separate entity "self" anywhere and there never was.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

The illusions of the separate self lives entirely in thoughts. It starts with the thought "I" or "there is an "I"" and then many other thoughts about this "I" are added. I don't know when it starts from my own experience because as long as I can remember the "I" thoughts were there. I can guess it starts when a child is taught this idea which is then reinforced by other ideas taught by others to the child about the "I". Everyone else around a child believes in the separate "selves" so strong belief in the self is formed.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

There is a sense of relief because there is understanding that there is nothing to seek. Seeking is just more thinking. The thinking is very clearly recognized as thinking now and it can be ignored easily, something that was not easy before. Troubling thoughts get easily dismissed, there isn't the same pondering on the events that already happened. These are the main differences.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

It was the question about whether the apple is actually known. This finally made me realize what looking vs thinking means.

5) Describe decision,
intention,
free will,
choice and control.

There is not an I who decides or has free will/choice/control. Stuff happens, I don't know how.

What makes things happen? How does it work? Give examples from experience.

I have no idea what makes things happen or how it works.

What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

How can I be responsible for anything if there isn't an "I".

[warissem]

Hi Kalyani

Glad to read your answers, I'll submit them to other guides and there could be further questions.

Best for you

[warissem]

Good evening

Here is a question from a guide :

How does it feel as a day to day lived experience now that the illusion of a separate ‘self’ or ‘I’ has been seen through?

Best for you

[Kalyani]

Hi Warissem,

To answer this question, nothing has changed very much in any drastic or dramatic way as a day to day lived experience.

There is the flip flopping that happens. Sometimes attention is immersed in thought. However, if thoughts are causing discomfort, it is very quickly intercepted. As soon soon thoughts are starting to cause bothersome sensations, another thought swoops in, for example "who is feeling this?", and the unpleasant sensations just passes through.

Other times of the day there is what feels like a pure awareness, it's like seeing and everything that is seen are one, there is not one spot form where things are seen and everything is vivid.

[warissem]

Hi Kalyani

You will be invited to join LU groups on facebook.

I wish you happy days.

Warissem