Beginner looking for liberation

[Elad]

Honestly, I don’t know. In restrospect. I think I started this “journey” searching for relief from suffering, suffering through mind identification. I watched a lot of video, read zen books, meditated with the headspace app and listed to podcasts and over the time my focus did change little by little. The video of ZDoggMD and Angelo Dillullo did change a lot to me, because it showed me a direct to go to. That awakening is a real thing and totally different than I was expecting it.

Thinking about it, it’s really hard to tell what my expections are: Honestly, it seems that there is still somewhere a yearning for liberation from mind and mix of curiosity and a pull from someway. True does reveal in daily life more and more and that seems the be my compass.

Nice! A fellow guide shared this exercise with another feeling guide in our central, I thought it might be fun/interesting for you. As always never to take any external words and descriptions as gospel. Play with it, let me know how it goes.

"Many clients confuse the lie feelingor "body no" with a "self." Also. he's stuck in doubt.

Here is how to distinguish truth from lies.

We often lie every day & don't realize it.

For example, the grocery clerk asks, "How are you?" You reply, "I'm fine." While, yes. there is a sense in which we are always fine, even in the middle of suffering, at that moment, you were grieving the death of your dog, you had a slight sore throat & you had a headache, but you didn't feel like sharing all of that with the grocery clerk, so you lied, "I'm fine."
Also, it matters none at all how "distant" the remembered lie is. Besides the fact that time itself is fictional, a kind if lie, as we recall the lie it becomes present in this moment, as if it were happening now. This brings the body Sensation that accompanies lying.
Lies can be intentional or unintentional, conscious or unconscious, even so automatic that we ourselves are fooled.
The story of a separate "self" is a lie.
This is the lie you came here to see through. Therefore, it is helpful to notice the body Sensation of lying as one of the tools for finding the truth of no self.
You want to be in touch with body Sensations & able to clearly express them in words. This will help.
Lies are usually felt in the heart or solar plexus as a contraction that we may label as tight, heavy or tense.
In contrast, truth is usually expansive. We may call it loose, light or relaxed.
First, can you remember a time when you lied to someone you loved?
Here we count anything, lies we think of as "big" or "small" that "matter" or don't "matter."
How are you? I'm fine. No, your knee hurts, but you don't feel like discussing it with the grocery clerk.
It's a lie. A seemingly "bigger" one will work better for this exercise.
Find the lie. I don't need the whole story, just a few key words to refer to it.
Then scan your body for any Sensation (DE or Direct Experience), particularly in the gut or maybe the heart. Check very closely.
What is found?
If you think the memory you used wasn't clear enough, find another one or lie to yourself right now, make something up.
1 + 1 = 14 is a lie.
I love eating worms is (probably) a lie.
Or call up a video of a lying politician & notice what Sensations arise as you listen.
I will give you a clue: it is not that peaceful Sensation you felt before when you omitted "I." (refers to an exercise I gave before this one)
Please report back with what body Sensations (not interpretations) you feel. Bodies can feel hot or cold, heavy or light, contraction or expansion, etc.
"Peaceful" is an interpretation of a body Sensation, not the Sensation itself, for example.
Do you see that?

[Jay85]

The distinction between sensation and interpretation is a valuable insight, which you did mention quite often but its also quite often hidden by thought.

I totally get the difference. In the lense of clear seeing lies don’t have a grip. I also do feel the difference between expansion and tightness. The “defense mechanism” at the moment is doubt. Doubt is a weird thing. I have a scientific mind and most comments which show up are, this is not really, you are just feeling it because it is written there… But as I said, in the lense of clear seeing this comments show up and disappear.

My daughter (2 years old) and wife had an interesting conversation this morning.
My daughter ask: “Where did the clouds go?”
Mom: “The flew away”
My daughter: “But how? They don’t have any wings!”
Mom: “It was the wind, he is moving the clouds”

And I was somehow amazed and had a glimse. We forgotten to ask the simple questions and a totally overloaded with stuff which literally has no value. The clouds are moving, the wind is blowing, I do this tipping and somehow this is all connected without a self in the middle of this.

[Elad]

Beautiful, exactly.

The doubt, is it any more then a thought?

Is there anything inherent in it that makes it worth believing, if yes what?

If you drop the label doubt and just stay with the sensation what happens?

Are you imagining that real awakening is something else then what "you" are seeing? If yes, what? If not, how does it feel to be awake?

[Jay85]

Doubt is a thought . Doubt, appearing and disappearing like a wave, so it can’t be more than a thought.

I never really imagined how awakened would be. The only thing that I thought is that it will be different than this. By this, I mean the current state that I am in. This sounds stupid because there is nothing else but this, call the main seems to seeki for something else than this.

The energetics, sensations, and so on a pretty strong when I’m alone e.g. While driving. do I get Your Guidance Right That I Should Only stay with is Sensations?

[Elad]

Doubt is a thought . Doubt, appearing and disappearing like a wave, so it can’t be more than a thought.

I never really imagined how awakened would be. The only thing that I thought is that it will be different than this. By this, I mean the current state that I am in. This sounds stupid because there is nothing else but this, call the main seems to seeki for something else than this.

The energetics, sensations, and so on a pretty strong when I’m alone e.g. While driving. do I get Your Guidance Right That I Should Only stay with is Sensations?

Hmmm process is moving well. Has there a moment where it was seen beyond doubt that there is no separate self? Is it seen?

A senior guide in the community, Christiane Michelberger, shared a great text today, let me know what comes up when you read it:


I Can’t Find a Self - There Is No Self. Right?

Wrong.
Not finding something doesn’t prove its non-existence, it just proves that you can’t find it.

In preparation for my book “How to See Through the Self-Illusion” (to be published May 2024), I guided in this step again, read many dialogues between seekers and guides and also mentored several people who are guiding in this step. Most dialogues are prematurely finished at the point when the seeker doesn’t find a self. The seeker and maybe the guide assume, this must be it, not knowing what else could come.

The fundamental error in this assessment is that not finding a self and concluding it doesn’t exist is a conceptual answer. The real answer is a sensate experience.

Doubt about having seen through the self-illusion will creep in quickly and the whole search starts all over again. The doubt is valid, take it seriously and don’t try to cure it. It will be cured by the right answer.

The right answer will not be given by YOU. The answer is a revelation, most often at a time of relaxation outside of the inquiry. Exploring the self-illusion prepares the ground for the revelation to happen.

To let the answer be revealed, the inquiry has to go through 4 stages.

I. What do I call “Me”?

It starts with finding out which belief you are looking for and how the sense of that belief manifests. That is very simple for the inquiry into the self-illusion, everybody has a sense of ‘me’ which they already know.

If you are neurodiverse, it might be different because you might have had to adjust so strongly to your surrounding that maybe you don’t have a clear sense of a self. Look for what feels like the ‘I’ in situations like “I am not fitting in”, “I feel great in hyperfocus”, “I can’t make eye contact”, “I have trouble starting tasks”, “I love to be on my own and relax”.

II. Exploring the “Me”
Then you explore the sense of me in different aspects of your life. The question is: Is there really a “me” that does all this or experiences it? You can also notice the sense of “me” and look whether there is really an entity that holds the reigns.

III. The Holding Pattern

This is the stage when you’ll feel stuck. It became clear that what we call ‘self’ or ‘me’ cannot be found but it still feels like there is one.

There is an uncomfortable cognitive dissonance, the feelings and the findings contradict each other. This cognitive dissonance can last for quite a while, we call it a holding pattern. Though not everybody experiences it, most do. Being in this stage feels rather uneasy. You will be tempted to resolve the cognitive dissonance by concluding that there is no self, since it can’t be found. This is not the final insight though.

If you are in this stage, know that frustration is par for the course. It shows that you are only one step away from the shift. Keep going!

IV. The Shift

When you keep exploring, the answer will reveal itself in a shift.

It will be clear as daylight that there is no “me”. The shift is not any shift, be it an energetic one or seeing “all as one” or “just this”. The shift of seeing through the self-illusion will provide a clear insight into the nature of the self. You might ask yourself why you ever believed in it, since it is so obvious that it never existed.

To give you an idea of how a shift could look like, here is an example how a woman framed her experience. Please know that everybody experiences the shift in a unique way. So far, I never heard two persons report the same experience.

“Let me try to put it into words. As I said, I was in yoga and we were doing an exercise standing up and suddenly my perception changed. The sense of self was gone, the bodies of the others were just like shells and everything somehow belonged together. It felt very light and I felt a great sense of happiness. At that moment, I clearly saw that there was no me. It lasted for a minute or half a minute. The feeling lingered for the whole evening.”

Don’t give up when you’re in the holding pattern and frustrated that nothing moves. Keep looking into all the hiding places of “I am doing or experiencing this”. Perseverance is key. The answer will be revealed.

If you need help with your inquiry, our team will offer groups to help you overcome any obstacles after the book is published.

[Elad]

Ps. Intense energetics are normal during the process. Write me about it if you wish to share.

[Jay85]

Really funny… Christiana gave me the tip to register here and get a guide. I found her in the internet and joined one time a group Zoom-Call. It was a group chat and she gave me the advise to start with the self illusion here :)

It is well described. My gud feeling tells me I‘m in the third stage. The self is not found, however the is a feeling of not right/doubt/whats next. As Christiana describes it‘s somehow contradictory and that’s annoying.

About the energetics:
I’m not worried that much about it, sure its not the most pleasant experience but it passes. I get tension in my forehead. Most energetics show up when I‘m alone and do my inquiry.

[Elad]

Really funny… Christiana gave me the tip to register here and get a guide. I found her in the internet and joined one time a group Zoom-Call. It was a group chat and she gave me the advise to start with the self illusion here :)

It is well described. My gud feeling tells me I‘m in the third stage. The self is not found, however the is a feeling of not right/doubt/whats next. As Christiana describes it‘s somehow contradictory and that’s annoying.

About the energetics:
I’m not worried that much about it, sure its not the most pleasant experience but it passes. I get tension in my forehead. Most energetics show up when I‘m alone and do my inquiry.

Great.

Re energetics - look if you can let your body and sensations "tell you" how to relax with it more, open to it more, enjoy it more. It's a movement towards clarity and genuineness, par for the course.

Re stage three. Good. Keep looking what is being still believed to be a self? When?

[Jay85]

There are different energetics, some are easy to handle because there are not bothering me to much. But there is a different kind of energy/sensation which is in the feet, fingers and in my jaw. It’s feels like something is holding it back. This feeling is present over a long time now. I got better over the time in giving it more space and not getting too involved in it. But it seems there is a reinforce the self. Isn‘t it, the self is useless without a problem to deal with?

Even now, inquiring into this sensation at this moment a self is not found, but a holding is felt.

[Elad]

The level of energetics and feelings in my experience is best supported in live sessions. You can contact fellow guide Vince Schubert for free group meetings where you can try look at this. vinceschubert@gmail.com

When you say the resistance is to reinforce self what does that mean? Is there a self to reinforce anywhere?


It is not clear in the writing if you talk about something that to you clearly is an illusion or not. Is it?


Either way describe what is experienced as precise as possible. Reinforcing that this is not about coming to good "explanations" it's about looking.

[Jay85]

I‘m sure that this is an illusion. There is no self reinforcing anything, these are thoughts and interpretations of sensations. In the light of looking I don’t see truth value in this. However, what is happening? Thoughts are believing other thoughts with no one in the middle of this. Something has changed over the time. There is no coherent story anymore, sensations, thought and the need of control appear and disappears.

[Elad]

Thank you! That all sounds natural and normal. Try answering the final questions again. Freshly from direct experience, you can keep it short if you want. Most important 100% honesty and directness. All questions in one message please.



1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

ANSWER:

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

ANSWER:

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before we started this dialogue? Please report from the past couple of days.

ANSWER:

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

ANSWER:

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control.

ANSWER:

6) What makes things happen? How does it work?

ANSWER:

7) What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

ANSWER:

8) Anything to add?

ANSWER

[Elad]

Vince's zoom groups are a great place to meet like minded and have kind peer support with what you describe.

[Jay85]

Thanks for advice. At the moment I feel “comfortable” with these energetics. It is/was part of the deal from the beginning and that’s okay.

I’ll answer the final questions this evening and try to keep it short. The first reaction seeing your post was, “no nothing changed vs. last time”. The mind is a funny co-pilot ;) I keep it precised and short as possible.

[Elad]

Thanks for advice. At the moment I feel “comfortable” with these energetics. It is/was part of the deal from the beginning and that’s okay.

I’ll answer the final questions this evening and try to keep it short. The first reaction seeing your post was, “no nothing changed vs. last time”. The mind is a funny co-pilot ;) I keep it precised and short as possible.

💗

Also feel free to write in it whatever feels important, true, from the heart - as long as it needs to be.