Newbie to LU, just registered, looking for a guide

[echoecho]

Hi Tim, its been a while since my last questions to you. How are things unfolding?

Hi Elad,
Precious little.

But, to check in and report what is here. If I do notice anything different, it is a pervasive deepening which I seem to carry with me all day..when i slow down a bit it comes into the foreground

It might be nothing....cos after all I truly don't know what's going on!...It's just an ever evolving, settling okayness (if i can describe it at all).

Because life is always moving at such a breakneck pace I don't have meditation time, but i do try as much as I can to seep into it in the time before I wake and sleep...and any lulls during the day...and it spreads....and if i do, it just envelops me - its just an all surrounding field of stillness and okayness. Hard to describe - like nothing is wrong, or could be wrong.

I wish I had more to report. But honestly nothing is more at the forefront of everything.....this being.

So even if life is moving (and damn, it always is!), I try to stay in touch with it

[Elad]

Tim, this has a lovely energy to it. I would like to try and hear your responses to checkpoint questions, that we give in LU when someone might be at a place where the process is ready to end. Please answer all of them in one message.




1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?



2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.



3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before we started this dialogue? Please report from the past couple of days.



4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look; as in what was a moment of shift if any? Was there a moment where doubt was resolved? How/when?



5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control.



6) What makes things happen? How does it work?



7) What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.




8) Is there anything more you wish my help with in terms of the LU process?



9) Anything to add?
[/quote]

[echoecho]

Tim, this has a lovely energy to it. I would like to try and hear your responses to checkpoint questions, that we give in LU when someone might be at a place where the process is ready to end. Please answer all of them in one message.

Hi Elad!

Thank you for sending me this. I wish I was at a point to answer this, but I don't think I am there yet. Though I do understand this LU process can't go on indefinitely!!

I don't see the illusion of the separate self yet. Yet, I don't think i'm in a total state of delusion either....

If I could answer these questions, I would love to.



1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?



2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.



3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before we started this dialogue? Please report from the past couple of days.



4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look; as in what was a moment of shift if any? Was there a moment where doubt was resolved? How/when?



5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control.



6) What makes things happen? How does it work?



7) What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.




8) Is there anything more you wish my help with in terms of the LU process?



9) Anything to add?

[/quote]

[Elad]

I see, okay.

Tim, I notice you are disappearing a lot, for long periods. I invited you to have a daily exchange, you expressed a willingness to work it, if I remember right, then you disappear for a long time, no explanation. You also repeatedly ignore some of my questions. It is fine to say one cannot answer something, but to repeatedly just ignore/bypass is a hindrance. There is heart and intention in every word you recieve.

What causes this?

I am all for honoring your genuine life circumstances. At the same time, for this process to be fruitful you need to be committed, genuine, honoring our collabration and giving this high priority in your life, so that only real important necessities and exceptions would take you away from answering questions as best you can daily. And if you cannot answer all, then still answer daily, and explain what is possible and what not.

Your motivation and commitment is not clear to me. I am not concluding anything either way, I don't know what is going on in your life. I am telling you what is seen here in your concrete ways of interacting within our collabriation, and the questions it give rise to.

So, what is actually going on in your thoughts, heart and actions with regard to this?

Please look deep in your heart and answer with sincerity. I am here to work with you as long as it takes, and I am in no hurry at all, but the work calls for two people engaged and giving their best and honoring agreements as best they can.

[echoecho]

You also repeatedly ignore some of my questions.

Hmm...if anyone scrolls back post by post, i think it is fairly obvious I have replied to everything with a question mark without fail. In quotes, question by question. With no omissions. I have participated in good faith.

Your motivation and commitment is not clear to me.

I did say in my very last post "But honestly nothing is more at the forefront of everything.....this being."

I personally don't believe realization can be rushed. I am moving as fast as I can - but it seems that doesn't fit with this approach. I am in no hurry, towards no goal.

(Also I simply cannot answer any of the questions).

My apologies. I don't believe this should be causing me this much anguish. Kindly delete my account (I don't seem to be able to do that myself).

Thank you for your time and effort with me - I do acknowledge the heart and intention behind your guidance.

[Elad]

Hi Tim,


First of all I did look back some, and it is true you have most often answered all. So that was unfair. A clear example that seeing through the belief of separate self doesn't produce a human free of blind spots and errors.

That said, below (quoted) is the last post you didn't respond to the questions of. I believe it was that, together with long period of not writing after we spoke about writing daily, that was part of what I wanted to point to and ask about, albeit it came out in an imprecise way and for that I genuinely apologize. Reading and considering this paragraph with compassion and patience, maybe you can see "my perspective" here also when looking to all the different elements.

I absolutely agree with you that awakening cannot and should not be rushed. And I don't want to rush you, I am sorry for my part in giving you that impression. While my message came out misguided in part, the core was to express the wish for more clarification about your motivation for receiving and following guidance at this point and in what way. The fact that this guidance happens in writing and without meeting face to face (in most cases) also make it easier to misunderstand each other.

Will you consider to let both of us be a work in progress with flaws and blind spots on the relative human level, which we all will continue to be until we die, and from there create more clarity here together about what is going on and then continue in the most respectful, genuine and sensitive way we both can? And maybe there can be a learning in what is happening here between us and inside you also, what it brought up, if we bring courage, patience, openness to it.

We have worked together for a long time and it saddens me if this will be the end of our cooperation. That said, I first and foremost wish the best for you and that you follow your own hearts intuition.

Last thing for now. I think you are deep in the process, like really deep. I have had that feeling for a long time. This can absolutely coexist with things that needs clarifying and working on the level of "the guiding relationship"

Hi Tim :)

How about answering me every day (as the norm) until we finish?

I'll do my best! I love your conviction :D

:)

Just let go of it being great. Give whatever is there. This will be good practice.

You mean let go of my answers being great or expecting a great experience? I will do both because I feel like they both apply to some degree!

Yes both.

Look, can you see this thought is based on thinking, not direct experience?

I find this point hard, because this interaction seems to require some degree of thoughts (or at least putting things into words). When I don't think, everything is just unsegmented and undescribed - just there and as it is basically. Unfiltered and unanalyzed.

True, we can't say anything without conceptualizing. And - pragmatically what we are working with here is if it is believed that someone is receiving experience, or it feels really clear that everything, even sense of self, is just spontaneous mysterious experience without separation.

Can you find any "you" that experience need to go through?

The answer is nearer to no than yes. I feel like I'm in such an unknowing state that the question feels preposterous.

Unknowing is great.

What however if we don't talk about knowing but rather experience and the feeling of what is true - is it the experience that experience goes through someone or experience just is, including all?


You know if I said do you believe you are a blue unicorn, you might also answer: Ultimately I don't know. And you might add - the idea that I am a blue unicorn seems redundant, funny, strange.

Do you feel the same way about the idea that you are a separate agent who controls "your" life and actions and feelings and perceptions and thoughts?

Can you find a "seer" in seeing, a "hearer" in hearing? Where exactly?

No - these things happen directly. I'm not really sure what a seer or hearer would be doing?

Yes, clear.

But I know there was once a very strong identity here, it now seems very distant. But I feel like I can't say the self has "dropped away"

What in direct experience compels you to say "it is there in a distant way"?

I mean I have a sense of identity, I know I am - conventionally speaking - Elad and not Tim. I know I have memories of a childhood in Israel and Denmark, and not in Canada. None of that means I believe there is a real separate self/doer anywhwere, or there ever has been one, or that the I-label has ever refered to anything real and stable that can be located and experienced.

Dropping is just a metaphor. Nothing is there, so nothing is dropped. It is just seen that what was taken to be I was just a belief in the idea of I. And the belief is no longer held.

Is this your experience?

And a functional sense of self is part of being human, I.e. we can identify.

So:

Sense of self - yes

A real separate self experiecing, chosing and doing - no.[/color]

I feel this strongly - like when my fingers are typing this, or when I'm walking or driving. I feel its happening all without the interaction of a self....if that's what the question is. There's actually a lot which I don't really feel in control of - but that doesn't prevent it from happening perfectly.

Crystal clear.

What we do here is all about beliefs and direct experience, not about some ultimate knowledge.

What is the evidence for that you still believe you have a separate self?

I don't think I believe that. My only inclination is let go of beliefs. I see them as fabricated and arbitrary...so I don't cling to or make beliefs....I think! Equally I don't try to do the opposite either. So its just a way of letting go or at least not holding anything too tightly.

Very clear.

Is anyone choosing to let go or is letting go/choosing to let go just happening?

And what is the evidence for that there is a separate self in fact?

Directly, here and now, I don't have any evidence of this.

Right

[Elad]

Here again is the post with unanswered questions, I think it will be easier to read like this:









Hi Tim :)

How about answering me every day (as the norm) until we finish?

I'll do my best! I love your conviction :D

:)

Just let go of it being great. Give whatever is there. This will be good practice.

You mean let go of my answers being great or expecting a great experience? I will do both because I feel like they both apply to some degree!

Yes both.

Look, can you see this thought is based on thinking, not direct experience?

I find this point hard, because this interaction seems to require some degree of thoughts (or at least putting things into words). When I don't think, everything is just unsegmented and undescribed - just there and as it is basically. Unfiltered and unanalyzed.

True, we can't say anything without conceptualizing. And - pragmatically what we are working with here is if it is believed that someone is receiving experience, or it feels really clear that everything, even sense of self, is just spontaneous mysterious experience without separation.

Can you find any "you" that experience need to go through?

The answer is nearer to no than yes. I feel like I'm in such an unknowing state that the question feels preposterous.

Unknowing is great.

What however if we don't talk about knowing but rather experience and the feeling of what is true - is it the experience that experience goes through someone or experience just is, including all?


You know if I said do you believe you are a blue unicorn, you might also answer: Ultimately I don't know. And you might add - the idea that I am a blue unicorn seems redundant, funny, strange.

Do you feel the same way about the idea that you are a separate agent who controls "your" life and actions and feelings and perceptions and thoughts?

Can you find a "seer" in seeing, a "hearer" in hearing? Where exactly?

No - these things happen directly. I'm not really sure what a seer or hearer would be doing?

Yes, clear.

But I know there was once a very strong identity here, it now seems very distant. But I feel like I can't say the self has "dropped away"

What in direct experience compels you to say "it is there in a distant way"?

I mean I have a sense of identity, I know I am - conventionally speaking - Elad and not Tim. I know I have memories of a childhood in Israel and Denmark, and not in Canada. None of that means I believe there is a real separate self/doer anywhwere, or there ever has been one, or that the I-label has ever refered to anything real and stable that can be located and experienced.

Dropping is just a metaphor. Nothing is there, so nothing is dropped. It is just seen that what was taken to be I was just a belief in the idea of I. And the belief is no longer held.

Is this your experience?

And a functional sense of self is part of being human, I.e. we can identify.

So:

Sense of self - yes

A real separate self experiecing, chosing and doing - no.[/color]

I feel this strongly - like when my fingers are typing this, or when I'm walking or driving. I feel its happening all without the interaction of a self....if that's what the question is. There's actually a lot which I don't really feel in control of - but that doesn't prevent it from happening perfectly.

Crystal clear.

What we do here is all about beliefs and direct experience, not about some ultimate knowledge.

What is the evidence for that you still believe you have a separate self?

I don't think I believe that. My only inclination is let go of beliefs. I see them as fabricated and arbitrary...so I don't cling to or make beliefs....I think! Equally I don't try to do the opposite either. So its just a way of letting go or at least not holding anything too tightly.

Very clear.

Is anyone choosing to let go or is letting go/choosing to let go just happening?

And what is the evidence for that there is a separate self in fact?

Directly, here and now, I don't have any evidence of this.

Right