See the sought

[tia22]

And even the aliveness... What is it in direct experience? Is it some-thing, or sensations labeled something?

I love this question so much! It is 100% a label of something in direct experience. A label is not “it”.
Thank you for pointing out these important discrepancies that seem to fly by unnoticed here. The mind and world of that can be so so subtle.

[Bluejay]

I would say, that the mind says it is there: in the mind. The sense of self is as vaperous as a thought.

Can you find a mind in direct experience?

Is the sense of self elusive, or is it simply not there in the first place?

If you look for a unicorn inside, do you say it is elusive when you don't find it, or just that it's not there? Why is it different with the sense of self?

I love this question so much! It is 100% a label of something in direct experience. A label is not “it”.
Thank you for pointing out these important discrepancies that seem to fly by unnoticed here. The mind and world of that can be so so subtle.

Yes, it's easy to miss these!

So if it is a label, what is aliveness in direct experience? What is the label describing?

The answer is no, but the SENSE appears and disappears as thoughts arise. I previously labeled this the person arising and falling away. It’s actually all just thought!!

If there is a sense, is there also sensations somewhere in the body? Otherwise it would just be a thought with no charge and would float by, no?

The function of choosing seems to be completely subconscious or completely spontaneous. Where do predictable preferences come from? Or preferences at all? Who prefers one thing over another and why?

Perhaps the lionsroar article answers this--emptiness and dependent origination.

Why does a flower prefer sunlight? Is it a preference?

Yes- there was definitely a tendency to say that it “feels like I chose”. So, I looked at that and decided it is more of a sense of “me choosing”, similar to the sense of “me”. But even still, can a sense choose?! Sense senses, it does not choose. So, choice chooses?? That doesn’t make sense cognitively, but none of this really does. Just because it doesn’t make sense in my brain, doesn’t mean it isn’t true or real.

Is there any choosing at all? When does a choice begin and end?

If I chose to write this, then when did I decide that? Did it happen in the moment, or when I was a child and began writing, or when I was conceived and my genes/personality were set in place, or when the universe was born?

As for the feeling of choosing, can't it be anything really? What if it's just the sensation of movement?

[tia22]

Can you find a mind in direct experience?

Is the sense of self elusive, or is it simply not there in the first place?

If you look for a unicorn inside, do you say it is elusive when you don't find it, or just that it's not there? Why is it different with the sense of self?

I’ve got so say something inside is feeling rather uncomfortable about this exploration. What is discomfort? What is experience? There is fear here because this is beginning to feel beyond comprehension. But fear is a sensation in the body, without anything to mind the thoughts, what is scary about fear? In order for me to reply to you there seems to be a production of thoughts in words, that is then written. Is this all illusory?

I can not find mind in direct experience. But it does seem to create this experience. If there is no mind then what is experience?

There is no self here. And sense seems illusive too- all in thought. There is nothing to hold on to or reference. But how is no-thing reading, formulating words and writing using language?

Yes, it's easy to miss these!

So if it is a label, what is aliveness in direct experience? What is the label describing?

Aliveness is a seeming sensation of existence…. To the understanding of the seeming mind that is formulating meaning.

I

If there is a sense, is there also sensations somewhere in the body? Otherwise it would just be a thought with no charge and would float by, no?

I’m not sure what a sense is or what it points to.

Perhaps the lionsroar article answers this--emptiness and dependent origination.

Why does a flower prefer sunlight? Is it a preference?

Yes, dependent origination seems plausible. But considering this seems like belief or idea forming. dependent origin is not in thought or processing. It is prior to.
A flower does not have preferences. It is pure Being

Is there any choosing at all? When does a choice begin and end?

If I chose to write this, then when did I decide that? Did it happen in the moment, or when I was a child and began writing, or when I was conceived and my genes/personality were set in place, or when the universe was born?

As for the feeling of choosing, can't it be anything really? What if it's just the sensation of movement?

No, what is there to choose or make a choice? A choice does not begin, therefore it can not end. Choice doesn’t exist.
You did not choose to write anything, it was written. Or perhaps writing is also a concept made by what appears as a mind.
The feeling of choosing is the sensation of movement? Movement of thought that seems to creat a sense of choosing? Sure, that could be it.
I feel empty. Like I don’t understand or know anything. It is not dysphoric. I just don’t know where, what, how, why, up or down in this moment.
I feel like the only language that can encapsulate all of the activity that seems to be occurring within me would be “experience”. What is seeming experience? And what is experiencing?

[Bluejay]

I’ve got so say something inside is feeling rather uncomfortable about this exploration. What is discomfort? What is experience? There is fear here because this is beginning to feel beyond comprehension. But fear is a sensation in the body, without anything to mind the thoughts, what is scary about fear? In order for me to reply to you there seems to be a production of thoughts in words, that is then written. Is this all illusory?

Yes, words are needed to communicate, but there's a difference between sharing with words what you see in direct experience and sharing what you have thought about, if that makes sense?

Let's take a moment and honor the fear.

Start with this meditation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKX1llYtlKE

And then questions:

What is the fear?
What is it protecting?
What needs to be protected?
What feels threatened?
Ask the fear why it is there?
Look beyond the fear, is there anything there?

But it does seem to create this experience. If there is no mind then what is experience?

Why is a mind needed for experience?

What is the function of the mind in regards to experience?

There is no self here. And sense seems illusive too- all in thought. There is nothing to hold on to or reference. But how is no-thing reading, formulating words and writing using language?

You seem to believe there was a self and there is now no-thing, but when Santa is seen to be false, are there now No-Santa's walking around? How will No-Santa deliver the presents?

Silly questions, but exaggeration can sometimes help clarify.

If there never was a separate self to begin with, perhaps the question is: How do words and language happen, and how have they always happened?

Is it even a question that can be answered, or is it a mystery?

Aliveness is a seeming sensation of existence…. To the understanding of the seeming mind that is formulating meaning.

So when you look at aliveness, do you find anything other than sensations?

Yes, dependent origination seems plausible. But considering this seems like belief or idea forming. dependent origin is not in thought or processing. It is prior to.
A flower does not have preferences. It is pure Being

It doesn't have to be a belief or idea. Look at the sense of self, it is dependent on many factors, is it not?

Can anything that is dependent be separate, or is it full of what it is dependent on?

No, what is there to choose or make a choice? A choice does not begin, therefore it can not end. Choice doesn’t exist.
You did not choose to write anything, it was written. Or perhaps writing is also a concept made by what appears as a mind.
The feeling of choosing is the sensation of movement? Movement of thought that seems to creat a sense of choosing? Sure, that could be it.
I feel empty. Like I don’t understand or know anything. It is not dysphoric. I just don’t know where, what, how, why, up or down in this moment.
I feel like the only language that can encapsulate all of the activity that seems to be occurring within me would be “experience”. What is seeming experience? And what is experiencing?

If you can, just rest in this emptiness. If you feel like it, look for this separate self, decider, doer while you are there. If there is just emptiness, stay there. This can help the body see through the belief (in case it hasn't already happened).

[tia22]

What is the fear?
What is it protecting?
What needs to be protected?
What feels threatened?
Ask the fear why it is there?
Look beyond the fear, is there anything there?

1. It seems the fear is a sensation of “tightness” in the chest and throat accompanied by a story in the mind that does not know what is going to happen next. The mind seems averse to the unknown.
2. The fear maybe wants to protect the mind/person construct that produces it?
3. Nothings needs to be protected.
4. The imaginary self formed by thought
5. Right now it seems like there is a sensation in the body that can not be discerned or differentiated until it is labeled by the mind. I asked the mind why it is afraid. Fear seems to arise as a protection against being seen through and also fear of moving into the unknown. I see that the mind is a facet of what it calls the unknown. Yet, all is known and orchestrated here. It feels confusing- the confusion is also a facet of this.
6. Beyond the fear is nothing and apparently everything. The fear is a movement of everything and nothing.

I am seemingly in an interesting state. There seems to be very little reactivity or resistance. Very little desire for anything to change or to seek anything different. There is still a lot of thought and attention to thought, but there isn’t much resistance to it being there. Last week there was a LOT of doubt (a seemingly sticky form of thought) that has decreased a lot. There is one BIG doubt or belief that “I am regurgitating or faking internal changes based on what I have learned about awakening. These changes are just the mind pretending.” But the mind is a part of THIS, the doubts are a part of THIS. Life IS AWAKENING. Every moment. Not sure why the attention seems to remain in thought so much, yet doesn’t seem compelled by thought at all.

[Bluejay]

The fear maybe wants to protect the mind/person construct that produces it?

Take a look.

Does a mind/person produce anything?

What is a mind/person construct?

The mind seems averse to the unknown.

Definitely. The body/system calms down after a bit.

Right now it seems like there is a sensation in the body that can not be discerned or differentiated until it is labeled by the mind. I asked the mind why it is afraid. Fear seems to arise as a protection against being seen through and also fear of moving into the unknown. I see that the mind is a facet of what it calls the unknown. Yet, all is known and orchestrated here. It feels confusing- the confusion is also a facet of this.

Aren't we always moving into the unknown? The grasping of the mind is only an illusion of knowing something, is it not?

I am seemingly in an interesting state. There seems to be very little reactivity or resistance. Very little desire for anything to change or to seek anything different. There is still a lot of thought and attention to thought, but there isn’t much resistance to it being there. Last week there was a LOT of doubt (a seemingly sticky form of thought) that has decreased a lot. There is one BIG doubt or belief that “I am regurgitating or faking internal changes based on what I have learned about awakening. These changes are just the mind pretending.” But the mind is a part of THIS, the doubts are a part of THIS. Life IS AWAKENING. Every moment. Not sure why the attention seems to remain in thought so much, yet doesn’t seem compelled by thought at all.

That all sounds great :)

Remember the flip-flopping video where Ilona talked about the integration process? It often looks like going back and forth. Old conditioning comes up and is seen through. Each time it lessens.

Another good way to look at the doubt is to see what feeling it is distracting from. Do you notice anything?

[tia22]

Does a mind/person produce anything?

What is a mind/person construct?

This is something that I want to discuss, but it is so hard to put into words. Please, bear with me. I know that there is no separate entity here that would be called a “person” or “Tia”. I can sense that all of internal experience is the movement of one “energy”? I have been calling the shifting into energy that feels more contracted or mind- identified the mind or the person. It’s feels different/heavier/more dense. But there is nothing here to be mind-identified. There is nothing that can get “stuck in thought”, yet sometimes it does feel this way. How are these apparent shifts created? It’s probably all thought- based. The mind saying there is a “shift in perception”. Does this mean I am still mind-identified if many thoughts still feel so real? It’s fine if I am, I just want to know where I need to focus my attention. Even though I have no control over where the attention goes.

Aren't we always moving into the unknown? The grasping of the mind is only an illusion of knowing something, is it not?

100%- every movement IS the unknown. The mind is an illusion of knowing and in this illusion of knowing it actually seems to strengthen the sense of there being a mind, but only in that moment. If I do not think, the mind does not exist in experience. But the attention does seem to go to this energetic space called mind/thought.

Another good way to look at the doubt is to see what feeling it is distracting from. Do you notice anything?

It is distracting from the feeling of rest, and peace

[Bluejay]

This is something that I want to discuss, but it is so hard to put into words. Please, bear with me. I know that there is no separate entity here that would be called a “person” or “Tia”. I can sense that all of internal experience is the movement of one “energy”? I have been calling the shifting into energy that feels more contracted or mind- identified the mind or the person. It’s feels different/heavier/more dense. But there is nothing here to be mind-identified. There is nothing that can get “stuck in thought”, yet sometimes it does feel this way. How are these apparent shifts created? It’s probably all thought- based. The mind saying there is a “shift in perception”. Does this mean I am still mind-identified if many thoughts still feel so real? It’s fine if I am, I just want to know where I need to focus my attention. Even though I have no control over where the attention goes.

There can be expansion and contraction. Sometimes there is peace and sometimes not. Thoughts do not disappear with awakening, nor does pain or heavy sensations.

Seeing through the separate self is just the beginning, so this unbinding will go on for quite some time. As one layer is seen through, the next one is more apparent and so often comes to the surface.

So you can be mind-identified and then not, back and forth.

You can also explore, for example, is there a difference between heavy/dense and other sensations?

Look into the sensations themselves, what is the difference between 'heavy' sensations and not?

One of them you don't like, right? But go directly into them, do you find liking/not liking or resistance in the sensations?

Does this help clarify?

It is distracting from the feeling of rest, and peace

This seems unlikely unless there is discomfort with rest/peace, in which case it isn't rest/peace. Doubt usually happens when something feels off/uncomfortable and thinking comes in trying to distract/fix.

It may happen quickly. The feeling can be a flash of something, and then there's doubt.

For example, if you doubt having truly seen through the self, before that may be the feeling of someone challenging you, or something similar, which would also be a symptom of some deeper fear or emotion.

[tia22]

For example, if you doubt having truly seen through the self, before that may be the feeling of someone challenging you, or something similar, which would also be a symptom of some deeper fear or emotion.

Yes, I see. Thank you for pushing me further.
There is confusion, an intense confusion (a facet of doubt?). Fear that I’ll never get it. I feel that these are covering the emotion of unworthiness, feeling not good enough

[Bluejay]

Yes, I see. Thank you for pushing me further.
There is confusion, an intense confusion (a facet of doubt?). Fear that I’ll never get it. I feel that these are covering the emotion of unworthiness, feeling not good enough

And if you're not good enough, then what will happen?

See if you can take this to the worst case scenario. What is the ultimate fear?

Once you reach it, drop the labels and fully feel it. Let it expand in your body and just be with the sensations. If thoughts and memories come up, welcome/include them as well.

This can be intense. It's what I tend to do :)

It can sometimes take some time to sit with something like this. Meaning, you might sit 30-60 minutes per day for weeks. It just becomes a practice until it's done, then the next one might come at some point.

[tia22]

Also, something else came up while I was in the shower that I feel also stems from the feeling of not good enough.
The intense fear of invalidation from “experts” because I can not trust my own experience. I need to have everything validated by others. Admitting this feels vulnerable and painful especially in discussion with an aforementioned “expert”, but it needs to be seen. What is real if my own experience can not be validated by myself or others?

[Bluejay]

The intense fear of invalidation from “experts” because I can not trust my own experience. I need to have everything validated by others. Admitting this feels vulnerable and painful especially in discussion with an aforementioned “expert”, but it needs to be seen.

Thanks for sharing so openly.

There are no real experts, not when it comes to this stuff. Only you know what's going on there.

Why don't you start experimenting with fully trusting your own experience? There may be stuff that bubbles up. If so, just feel it fully as I mentioned in the post above.

Also, this is a big part of being human--wanting to be seen and validated.

What is real if my own experience can not be validated by myself or others?

What is real is your experience, which cannot be validated or invalidated, because no one knows what's going on for you.

Once you get through the fear and doubt, and see there is no inherent self, no one needs to validate it because it is clear.

Please ask more questions if I missed something :)

[tia22]

Please ask more questions if I missed something :)

You have covered it all so well. Thank you. I am going to work with these beliefs and emotions as you have recommended. I also have an online retreat next week, which will be a great opportunity to continue doing this without interruption.
Happy Holidays, Henri!

[Bluejay]

Happy Holidays, Henri!

You too! 🎄

[tia22]

I just noticed something in my experience that I wanted to ask you about. I see that I am not the thinker, doer, chooser, decider… things are just happening. Yet, there does seem to be something separate that is “realizing” and “noticing” that these things are happening. I feel some belief about me being the “observer” beginning to form, but that doesn’t feel right. This observer does feel autonomous somehow, but what could it be separate from? How can anything seemingly happen outside of THIS??
Maybe a pointer or exercise will be helpful for me to mull over before retreat next Wednesday.