Good Joshua, now remember this:
- Experiences of getting this or not getting this, hope and dejection, will come and go. None of that is seeing. Seeing sees all those experiences.
- Josh will not get this. Elad does not get this. A character in a story cannot see, it can only be seen and recognized as a thought or not.
Do this exercise: Sit with a journal and write down moment after moment what you see arising without any free will or separate self doing it. Here is an example:
An indefinable sensation without a self; listening to typing without a self; imagining how you will react without a self; feeling into what feels important without a self; considering how to write this without a self; getting curious about the visual experience without a self.
Etc. Point is: notice arising after arising of what is conventionally taken to be "me and my doing" and see how each of these arisings (even preferences, intentions, feelings and thoughts about a me) come spontaneously without choice or self.
Write with the same format I did, i.e. after each arising described you add "without a self".
Seeing is happening. Enjoy the exercise.
Elad
Hello!-JoshO
Re: Hello!-JoshO
With love,
Elad
Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.
- Kahlil Gibran
One gets there by being there.
- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)
Elad
Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.
- Kahlil Gibran
One gets there by being there.
- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)
Re: Hello!-JoshO
Dear Elad,
Hello again. First of all, thank you again. I did the exercise as you recommended earlier today, again while sitting by the Hudson. I’d kind of like to try it again, here now, just to have done it more than once. But first, allow me to respond to each of the things you recommended I remember:
“Good Joshua, now remember this:
- Experiences of getting this or not getting this, hope and dejection, will come and go. None of that is seeing. Seeing sees all those experiences.”
Thank you very much for this, quite specifically. I have actually in the past gotten tangled in “high points” of seeing, “enlightenment experiences” and the like. Tremendously intoxicating and attractive and beguiling experiences… all of which, because they were experiences, necessarily arose and then subsided, as every experience does. I feel and hope that I am readier for, more open to, what it is you point to above – the coming and going of “getting it” and “not getting it” and that neither of those is “seeing.”
And also: “- Josh will not get this. Elad does not get this. A character in a story cannot see, it can only be seen and recognized as a thought or not.”
I have some preparation for, or readiness for, this point you remind me of. I have heard many times in the past that, said one particular way, “the individual does not, cannot, wake up.” Now yes, this may be me approaching the work by means of or attempts at “understanding,” rather than through readiness to drop all such, but, well, this is what arises in response to what you’ve said.
Onward, please. I would like to try that exercise you recommended again, here and now as I write to you. Here goes: you said: “Do this exercise: Sit with a journal and write down moment after moment what you see arising without any free will or separate self doing it…
Etc. Point is: notice arising after arising of what is conventionally taken to be "me and my doing" and see how each of these arisings (even preferences, intentions, feelings and thoughts about a me) come spontaneously without choice or self.
Write with the same format I did, i.e. after each arising described you add "without a self".”
OK, I will. Here goes:
Seeing my computer screen without a self
Pushing on the keyboard without a self
Hearing the noises in the ears without a self
Manipulating the trackpad without a self
Feeling annoyed without a self
Clenching within this body without a self
Feeling the in-breath without a self
Thinking of an old schoolmate without a self
Feeling a strange sensation in the right shoulder without a self
Seeing an image in my minds eye of an old semi-friend without a self
Correct in the misspellings of the Dictation app without a self
Grimacing when the machine does not do my bidding without a self
Thinking of some of my new coworkers without a self
Thanking of my daughter without a self
Experiencing the taste of something undefinable in my mouth without a self
Thanking of the beer, I drank earlier this evening about a self.
Wondering about this process and how it will unfold without a self
Thinking of my mother and her tone on the phone earlier without a self
Hearing undefined noises outside my bedroom door without a self
Looking at my wrist watch without a self
Breathing in more deeply without a self
Feeling the radiant, not-exactly-pain in my right knee without a self
Looking for what arises next without a self
Thinking of my little doggies face without a self.
OK that was a few minutes of that. For whatever it may be worth, nothing was perceived as extraordinary in the doing of that last exercise.
Seeing that I want special fanciness without a self. Admitting that I want specialness, that there’s some part of this being that wants specialness…without a self.
Thank you again, Elad, for all of this. I look forward to hearing from you and to continuing the work tomorrow.
With best wishes to you from
Josh(ua)
P.S. I just saw your last note to me again, as I went to enter mine into the LU site. I have to admit that I didn’t particularly enjoy this exercise… and I have a big investment in enjoyment here…
… without a self.
😉
Hello again. First of all, thank you again. I did the exercise as you recommended earlier today, again while sitting by the Hudson. I’d kind of like to try it again, here now, just to have done it more than once. But first, allow me to respond to each of the things you recommended I remember:
“Good Joshua, now remember this:
- Experiences of getting this or not getting this, hope and dejection, will come and go. None of that is seeing. Seeing sees all those experiences.”
Thank you very much for this, quite specifically. I have actually in the past gotten tangled in “high points” of seeing, “enlightenment experiences” and the like. Tremendously intoxicating and attractive and beguiling experiences… all of which, because they were experiences, necessarily arose and then subsided, as every experience does. I feel and hope that I am readier for, more open to, what it is you point to above – the coming and going of “getting it” and “not getting it” and that neither of those is “seeing.”
And also: “- Josh will not get this. Elad does not get this. A character in a story cannot see, it can only be seen and recognized as a thought or not.”
I have some preparation for, or readiness for, this point you remind me of. I have heard many times in the past that, said one particular way, “the individual does not, cannot, wake up.” Now yes, this may be me approaching the work by means of or attempts at “understanding,” rather than through readiness to drop all such, but, well, this is what arises in response to what you’ve said.
Onward, please. I would like to try that exercise you recommended again, here and now as I write to you. Here goes: you said: “Do this exercise: Sit with a journal and write down moment after moment what you see arising without any free will or separate self doing it…
Etc. Point is: notice arising after arising of what is conventionally taken to be "me and my doing" and see how each of these arisings (even preferences, intentions, feelings and thoughts about a me) come spontaneously without choice or self.
Write with the same format I did, i.e. after each arising described you add "without a self".”
OK, I will. Here goes:
Seeing my computer screen without a self
Pushing on the keyboard without a self
Hearing the noises in the ears without a self
Manipulating the trackpad without a self
Feeling annoyed without a self
Clenching within this body without a self
Feeling the in-breath without a self
Thinking of an old schoolmate without a self
Feeling a strange sensation in the right shoulder without a self
Seeing an image in my minds eye of an old semi-friend without a self
Correct in the misspellings of the Dictation app without a self
Grimacing when the machine does not do my bidding without a self
Thinking of some of my new coworkers without a self
Thanking of my daughter without a self
Experiencing the taste of something undefinable in my mouth without a self
Thanking of the beer, I drank earlier this evening about a self.
Wondering about this process and how it will unfold without a self
Thinking of my mother and her tone on the phone earlier without a self
Hearing undefined noises outside my bedroom door without a self
Looking at my wrist watch without a self
Breathing in more deeply without a self
Feeling the radiant, not-exactly-pain in my right knee without a self
Looking for what arises next without a self
Thinking of my little doggies face without a self.
OK that was a few minutes of that. For whatever it may be worth, nothing was perceived as extraordinary in the doing of that last exercise.
Seeing that I want special fanciness without a self. Admitting that I want specialness, that there’s some part of this being that wants specialness…without a self.
Thank you again, Elad, for all of this. I look forward to hearing from you and to continuing the work tomorrow.
With best wishes to you from
Josh(ua)
P.S. I just saw your last note to me again, as I went to enter mine into the LU site. I have to admit that I didn’t particularly enjoy this exercise… and I have a big investment in enjoyment here…
… without a self.
😉
Re: Hello!-JoshO
All this is precise and clear. Expectations, elations and disappointments, resistance and acceptance appear and disappear without a self. Now try this:
Stream Exercise
Imagine for a moment a scene, one of a little mountain stream which is tumbling down a hillside gully, not far from its source. It has been raining and so the level is quite high. Consider in your mind's eye, if you can, how it flows to the right over a little rock (where, had the level been lower, it would probably have gone around the rock), then the flow goes to the left over a tree bow, and then slows a little in a broader place, before splashing over a small cascade into a pool, and so on down the mountain side. Does it choose any of its directions? Is it even really a separate entity different from the water deposited in it, the rocks, the depressions in the ground etc? Is it even the same entity moment by moment, or more the product of weather conditions and water, like an ever-changing pattern?
1. Can you find anywhere where 'insert name' autonomously intervenes into life, choosing something that is not the product of all the elements; that is not a part of the overall flow?
2. Now please consider a regular decision made eg; what to wear in the morning, or what to eat for lunch, and describe to me what happens. There are environmental factors, there are colour preferences (but where did those come from - any autonomous intervention there perhaps?), practical issues (such as what is available), available time for preparation, purpose (eg; need to fill up for the day, or to look hip and cool for that person!) etc. Where in there is an autonomous entity intervening in the flow of life? Can you find someone somewhere?
3. Can anything be found for which 'insert name' is responsible – if so responsible to what and for what?
4. Write about what comes up after finishing the exercise, five minutes at least. Use the letter O instead of I and Joe instead of Joshua, mu instead of me/my, balf instead of self.
Enjoy - or don't, without choice or balf.
Josh
Stream Exercise
Imagine for a moment a scene, one of a little mountain stream which is tumbling down a hillside gully, not far from its source. It has been raining and so the level is quite high. Consider in your mind's eye, if you can, how it flows to the right over a little rock (where, had the level been lower, it would probably have gone around the rock), then the flow goes to the left over a tree bow, and then slows a little in a broader place, before splashing over a small cascade into a pool, and so on down the mountain side. Does it choose any of its directions? Is it even really a separate entity different from the water deposited in it, the rocks, the depressions in the ground etc? Is it even the same entity moment by moment, or more the product of weather conditions and water, like an ever-changing pattern?
1. Can you find anywhere where 'insert name' autonomously intervenes into life, choosing something that is not the product of all the elements; that is not a part of the overall flow?
2. Now please consider a regular decision made eg; what to wear in the morning, or what to eat for lunch, and describe to me what happens. There are environmental factors, there are colour preferences (but where did those come from - any autonomous intervention there perhaps?), practical issues (such as what is available), available time for preparation, purpose (eg; need to fill up for the day, or to look hip and cool for that person!) etc. Where in there is an autonomous entity intervening in the flow of life? Can you find someone somewhere?
3. Can anything be found for which 'insert name' is responsible – if so responsible to what and for what?
4. Write about what comes up after finishing the exercise, five minutes at least. Use the letter O instead of I and Joe instead of Joshua, mu instead of me/my, balf instead of self.
Enjoy - or don't, without choice or balf.
Josh
With love,
Elad
Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.
- Kahlil Gibran
One gets there by being there.
- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)
Elad
Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.
- Kahlil Gibran
One gets there by being there.
- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)
Re: Hello!-JoshO
Greetings Elad -
“Stream Exercise:
Imagine for a moment a scene, one of a little mountain stream which is tumbling down a hillside gully, not far from its source. It has been raining and so the level is quite high. Consider in your mind's eye, if you can, how it flows to the right over a little rock (where, had the level been lower, it would probably have gone around the rock), then the flow goes to the left over a tree bow, and then slows a little in a broader place, before splashing over a small cascade into a pool, and so on down the mountain side. Does it choose any of its directions? Is it even really a separate entity different from the water deposited in it, the rocks, the depressions in the ground etc? Is it even the same entity moment by moment, or more the product of weather conditions and water, like an ever-changing pattern?
I don’t think you had intended for me to answer any questions here yet, and yet I will begin to address the questions that you’ve already, preliminarily, begun to pose in that first descriptive paragraph:
My answers to the questions above are:
1. No, the stream does not choose any of its directions.
2. No, the stream is not a separate entity in any way from the water that is its very substance.
At this moment, at this stage of my understanding/development/process here, I do however still see the mountain stream itself as not exactly the same thing as the rocks over which it tumbles and flows, but I suspect that my perception of some difference there may also not last forever. Don’t know, though.
3. No, “the stream” probably isn’t even a single entity from moment to moment. I suspect it is more likely, in truth, a constantly shifting collection of qualities that never actually stop shifting, ever. As I say that, I do have some feeling that I’m getting a bit “out over my skis here.” In other words, I’m not sure that I can justly claim to own that vision, that direct experience, just from looking at the image of it in my mind’s eye right now. But at the same time, I do recognize – perhaps a product of some of the studying/looking/considering that I have done in previous chapters of this “project” — that every apparently solid or at least differentiable, apparently external entity, is really much more constantly shifting, almost kaleidoscopic phenomenon, always in motion, never solid and stuck for any one moment, of which there may not really be any such thing.
[Elad, please forgive me: I only had completed the above, maybe not even half of what you gave me to work on... when I went out this evening for dinner with my wife and older daughter. We are only just back in the last half hour or so, and I haven't done the whole thing yet. With apologies, I will complete tomorrow what you have given me today. Thank you for your patience with me again now, but it's a bit after midnight and I'm a too tired to keep going now -- I'm afraid I need to go to bed! More coming tomorrow, with my thanks and what’s done so far tonight.]
Best wishes and thanks from
Josh(ua)
P.S. If you are inspired to share any response to what I've written above, I hope you will do so, rather than wait... until you feel it wiser or better to wait. I look forward to being in touch again very shortly, in any case. Thanks again! -Josh
“Stream Exercise:
Imagine for a moment a scene, one of a little mountain stream which is tumbling down a hillside gully, not far from its source. It has been raining and so the level is quite high. Consider in your mind's eye, if you can, how it flows to the right over a little rock (where, had the level been lower, it would probably have gone around the rock), then the flow goes to the left over a tree bow, and then slows a little in a broader place, before splashing over a small cascade into a pool, and so on down the mountain side. Does it choose any of its directions? Is it even really a separate entity different from the water deposited in it, the rocks, the depressions in the ground etc? Is it even the same entity moment by moment, or more the product of weather conditions and water, like an ever-changing pattern?
I don’t think you had intended for me to answer any questions here yet, and yet I will begin to address the questions that you’ve already, preliminarily, begun to pose in that first descriptive paragraph:
My answers to the questions above are:
1. No, the stream does not choose any of its directions.
2. No, the stream is not a separate entity in any way from the water that is its very substance.
At this moment, at this stage of my understanding/development/process here, I do however still see the mountain stream itself as not exactly the same thing as the rocks over which it tumbles and flows, but I suspect that my perception of some difference there may also not last forever. Don’t know, though.
3. No, “the stream” probably isn’t even a single entity from moment to moment. I suspect it is more likely, in truth, a constantly shifting collection of qualities that never actually stop shifting, ever. As I say that, I do have some feeling that I’m getting a bit “out over my skis here.” In other words, I’m not sure that I can justly claim to own that vision, that direct experience, just from looking at the image of it in my mind’s eye right now. But at the same time, I do recognize – perhaps a product of some of the studying/looking/considering that I have done in previous chapters of this “project” — that every apparently solid or at least differentiable, apparently external entity, is really much more constantly shifting, almost kaleidoscopic phenomenon, always in motion, never solid and stuck for any one moment, of which there may not really be any such thing.
[Elad, please forgive me: I only had completed the above, maybe not even half of what you gave me to work on... when I went out this evening for dinner with my wife and older daughter. We are only just back in the last half hour or so, and I haven't done the whole thing yet. With apologies, I will complete tomorrow what you have given me today. Thank you for your patience with me again now, but it's a bit after midnight and I'm a too tired to keep going now -- I'm afraid I need to go to bed! More coming tomorrow, with my thanks and what’s done so far tonight.]
Best wishes and thanks from
Josh(ua)
P.S. If you are inspired to share any response to what I've written above, I hope you will do so, rather than wait... until you feel it wiser or better to wait. I look forward to being in touch again very shortly, in any case. Thanks again! -Josh
Re: Hello!-JoshO
Hi Jossa, all right.
"At this moment, at this stage of my understanding/development/process here, I do however still see the mountain stream itself as not exactly the same thing as the rocks over which it tumbles and flows, but I suspect that my perception of some difference there may also not last forever. Don’t know, though."
You are right it is not exactly the same, it is not exactly different. Reality itself is beyond such conceptions. You see this.
Look forward to your responses on the rest.
"At this moment, at this stage of my understanding/development/process here, I do however still see the mountain stream itself as not exactly the same thing as the rocks over which it tumbles and flows, but I suspect that my perception of some difference there may also not last forever. Don’t know, though."
You are right it is not exactly the same, it is not exactly different. Reality itself is beyond such conceptions. You see this.
Look forward to your responses on the rest.
With love,
Elad
Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.
- Kahlil Gibran
One gets there by being there.
- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)
Elad
Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.
- Kahlil Gibran
One gets there by being there.
- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)
Re: Hello!-JoshO
Greetings Elad:
Picking up where Joe left off last night:
1. Can you find anywhere where 'insert name' autonomously intervenes into life, choosing something that is not the product of all the elements; that is not a part of the overall flow?
This is rather interesting, now, Elad. The way this is unfurling tonight is that I have and then come back to do my “work” here on the very late side, but I also really want to do it even has my body and mind are feeling quite exhausted. I’m interested to see what the experience would be like when it’s hard to even keep my eyes open… And yet, I want very much to continue to work on the consideration of these questions that you bring to me -- and so I will, here and now, in a little bit of extremis.
My immediate response to the question is no, I cannot find anywhere, where “John Doe” autonomously intervenes into life. To be fully honest, I don’t feel like I have scoured the entire universe looking to see if I can find such a somewhere and thus proven this answer to myself exhaustively and beyond a shadow of a doubt. And that is what remains here, hovering behind my left shoulder as I follow you: a shadow of a doubt. But I strongly suspect you are pointing me toward something true.
2. Now please consider a regular decision made eg; what to wear in the morning, or what to eat for lunch, and describe to me what happens. There are environmental factors, there are colour preferences (but where did those come from – any autonomous intervention there perhaps?), practical issues (such as what is available), available time for preparation, purpose (eg; need to fill up for the day, or to look hip and cool for that person!) etc. Where in there is an autonomous entity intervening in the flow of life? Can you find someone somewhere?
This is a funny one, Elad. Because, after all, this sort of decision, these regular, every day decisions about all of the small business of life – regular life is brimming with examples of these sorts of managements and decisions, and I am accustomed to looking at them in the old familiar way. Just to consider how one gets dressed in the morning – there are tastes and tendencies, and considerations like the weather, what will keep the body most comfortable during the day, depending on how cold or warm it is definitely questions of fun, hip cool items to please, some sensibility… and yet… and yet.
I feel like I’m hitting a little bit of a bump here. It almost feels as if I am not really doing my own work here, not really, actually looking closely at (for instance) getting dressed, and finding out that no one is making the choices that get made. Instead, it feels as if I am not really seeing clearly what is happening there, and that in some strange way I am just allowing myself to be migrated to a new accepted view in which no one is doing it – a view I haven’t truly “earned” or “fully seen” for myself.
I hope that didn’t sound like complete blather – I confess I am exhausted and experimenting with pushing onward through the exhaustion anyway. Thank you for bearing with me while I do so.
3. Can anything be found for which 'insert name' is responsible – if so responsible to what and for what?
Can anything be found for which “I”, for which “Joshua,” is responsible? At this moment, I’m afraid I am less clear than I would like to be, and the chief experience is uncertainty and a little bit of “flailing” feeling. But even in the midst of that strange feeling of uncertainty, which I can see from here, I have a feeling also that I already know, perhaps a little distantly, that “Joshua” is an object of knowledge, not an actor or an initiator. I’m here I’m thinking, or trying to, but too dumb to do so at the moment.
I’m not sure what “he” is responsible for, or if he even can be. I’m not sure at the moment who he is vs who I am.
4. Write about what comes up after finishing the exercise, five minutes at least. Use the letter O instead of I and Joe instead of Joshua, mu instead of me/my, balf instead of self.
At the moment, O don’t know which way is up, honestly. When O point at mubalf, O get very confused and a little weirded out… and yet O smile at the strangely delightful twisting of normalcy out of its normal shape just by swapping in these other terms for the “normal ones.” The swapping, it seems to mu, reveals the near-hypnotic power the words have, the regular normal words have, to create the belief you pointed at the other day’s note to mu. It seems to mu that they play a very important part in the reinforcement of the belief you pointed out to mu, the strong belief that that something is there which then creates the strong feeling that it is in fact there. But O no longer feel so completely “brought back into the spell” when O stop using the magic hypno-words, when O do what you instructed mu to do the other day, and now.
O am enjoying this opportunity very much, Elad, even as O find it weird and uncomfortable sometimes. O love swapping out the hypno-terms! O am not at all sure about much at the moment, but O wants to keep on, keep following, keep pursuing, with your help.
And O want to do it…without a balf.
More exercises please, if you think that a good idea, Elad.
O am freaking exhausted here; O hope this wasn’t a waste of your time. O am half conscious at the moment, looking forward to reviewing the mess O made here just now and to reconnecting with you very soon for more excavations please.
Enjoy - or don't, without choice or balf.
Josh
O have enjoyed this mess-making quite a lot, actually. Without a balf.
So weird!
O look forward to hearing from you again, Elad.
Best wishes from
Joe
##
Picking up where Joe left off last night:
1. Can you find anywhere where 'insert name' autonomously intervenes into life, choosing something that is not the product of all the elements; that is not a part of the overall flow?
This is rather interesting, now, Elad. The way this is unfurling tonight is that I have and then come back to do my “work” here on the very late side, but I also really want to do it even has my body and mind are feeling quite exhausted. I’m interested to see what the experience would be like when it’s hard to even keep my eyes open… And yet, I want very much to continue to work on the consideration of these questions that you bring to me -- and so I will, here and now, in a little bit of extremis.
My immediate response to the question is no, I cannot find anywhere, where “John Doe” autonomously intervenes into life. To be fully honest, I don’t feel like I have scoured the entire universe looking to see if I can find such a somewhere and thus proven this answer to myself exhaustively and beyond a shadow of a doubt. And that is what remains here, hovering behind my left shoulder as I follow you: a shadow of a doubt. But I strongly suspect you are pointing me toward something true.
2. Now please consider a regular decision made eg; what to wear in the morning, or what to eat for lunch, and describe to me what happens. There are environmental factors, there are colour preferences (but where did those come from – any autonomous intervention there perhaps?), practical issues (such as what is available), available time for preparation, purpose (eg; need to fill up for the day, or to look hip and cool for that person!) etc. Where in there is an autonomous entity intervening in the flow of life? Can you find someone somewhere?
This is a funny one, Elad. Because, after all, this sort of decision, these regular, every day decisions about all of the small business of life – regular life is brimming with examples of these sorts of managements and decisions, and I am accustomed to looking at them in the old familiar way. Just to consider how one gets dressed in the morning – there are tastes and tendencies, and considerations like the weather, what will keep the body most comfortable during the day, depending on how cold or warm it is definitely questions of fun, hip cool items to please, some sensibility… and yet… and yet.
I feel like I’m hitting a little bit of a bump here. It almost feels as if I am not really doing my own work here, not really, actually looking closely at (for instance) getting dressed, and finding out that no one is making the choices that get made. Instead, it feels as if I am not really seeing clearly what is happening there, and that in some strange way I am just allowing myself to be migrated to a new accepted view in which no one is doing it – a view I haven’t truly “earned” or “fully seen” for myself.
I hope that didn’t sound like complete blather – I confess I am exhausted and experimenting with pushing onward through the exhaustion anyway. Thank you for bearing with me while I do so.
3. Can anything be found for which 'insert name' is responsible – if so responsible to what and for what?
Can anything be found for which “I”, for which “Joshua,” is responsible? At this moment, I’m afraid I am less clear than I would like to be, and the chief experience is uncertainty and a little bit of “flailing” feeling. But even in the midst of that strange feeling of uncertainty, which I can see from here, I have a feeling also that I already know, perhaps a little distantly, that “Joshua” is an object of knowledge, not an actor or an initiator. I’m here I’m thinking, or trying to, but too dumb to do so at the moment.
I’m not sure what “he” is responsible for, or if he even can be. I’m not sure at the moment who he is vs who I am.
4. Write about what comes up after finishing the exercise, five minutes at least. Use the letter O instead of I and Joe instead of Joshua, mu instead of me/my, balf instead of self.
At the moment, O don’t know which way is up, honestly. When O point at mubalf, O get very confused and a little weirded out… and yet O smile at the strangely delightful twisting of normalcy out of its normal shape just by swapping in these other terms for the “normal ones.” The swapping, it seems to mu, reveals the near-hypnotic power the words have, the regular normal words have, to create the belief you pointed at the other day’s note to mu. It seems to mu that they play a very important part in the reinforcement of the belief you pointed out to mu, the strong belief that that something is there which then creates the strong feeling that it is in fact there. But O no longer feel so completely “brought back into the spell” when O stop using the magic hypno-words, when O do what you instructed mu to do the other day, and now.
O am enjoying this opportunity very much, Elad, even as O find it weird and uncomfortable sometimes. O love swapping out the hypno-terms! O am not at all sure about much at the moment, but O wants to keep on, keep following, keep pursuing, with your help.
And O want to do it…without a balf.
More exercises please, if you think that a good idea, Elad.
O am freaking exhausted here; O hope this wasn’t a waste of your time. O am half conscious at the moment, looking forward to reviewing the mess O made here just now and to reconnecting with you very soon for more excavations please.
Enjoy - or don't, without choice or balf.
Josh
O have enjoyed this mess-making quite a lot, actually. Without a balf.
So weird!
O look forward to hearing from you again, Elad.
Best wishes from
Joe
##
Re: Hello!-JoshO
Joshua this is all great. Here are a couple of exercises, also keep playing with the letters as long as you are having fun and/or benefit with it. Regarding the not knowing, let's be curious about that.
1) Ask your heart how it is for it to not to know. Write me the answer. Don't be preconceived and don't be insensitive. Let's give your heart a safe space to talk and be heard.
2) Sit on a comfortable chair with eyes closed. Pay attention to what are conventionally called baunderies, say where your body ends or where your body meets the chair. What is that in direct moment to moment experience? Can you find an induring identifiable boundery of the body and body/chair in moment to moment experience? Or are there shifting sensations combined with fleeting conscious and barely conscious thought images of body/room and inner talk that construct the sense of conventional devision and space? If you do not find a solid or stable boundery, sit with that. Tell me what you experience.
With appreciation,
Elad
1) Ask your heart how it is for it to not to know. Write me the answer. Don't be preconceived and don't be insensitive. Let's give your heart a safe space to talk and be heard.
2) Sit on a comfortable chair with eyes closed. Pay attention to what are conventionally called baunderies, say where your body ends or where your body meets the chair. What is that in direct moment to moment experience? Can you find an induring identifiable boundery of the body and body/chair in moment to moment experience? Or are there shifting sensations combined with fleeting conscious and barely conscious thought images of body/room and inner talk that construct the sense of conventional devision and space? If you do not find a solid or stable boundery, sit with that. Tell me what you experience.
With appreciation,
Elad
With love,
Elad
Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.
- Kahlil Gibran
One gets there by being there.
- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)
Elad
Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.
- Kahlil Gibran
One gets there by being there.
- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)
Re: Hello!-JoshO
Greetings Elad –
Let’s just go directly from your last message to me please:
“Joshua this is all great. Here are a couple of exercises, also keep playing with the letters as long as you are having fun and/or benefit with it. Regarding the not knowing, let's be curious about that.
1) Ask your heart how it is for it to not to know. Write me the answer. Don't be preconceived and don't be insensitive. Let's give your heart a safe space to talk and be heard.”
Ask my heart how it is for it not to know? The beginnings of tears spring into the corners of my eyes — and even more than just the beginning of tears, when you merely ask the question, and I consider it for half a moment. I don’t know why that should be so exactly… but it feels like some longstanding kind of yearning — for control, or for certainty, or for some kind of something that I don’t quite know how to define at the moment. My heart has wanted to know so badly! It has wanted a clue. It badly wants to wake up. It has wanted to be the realization of my fantasy of it…
And the funny thing is that I suspect it is that already, but there is a very heavy burden of wanting and needing and hoping and “trying to live up to” or to become some version of something that it had in mind. I have the funny suspicion that in fact, it is already all of what that fantasy might call for, but not in the way that it thought of it, or that I thought of it, or that some idea I had in mind called for.
I do kind of recognize its frustration as a funny tangle of misunderstanding and yearning and lovely-yet-also-misguided ambition. A lot of thoughts in here, as you can see. It’s a little hard to say all of this very well, but it’s a bit like my heart wanted or yearns to live up to its long-held fantasy…of being the first cousin of Jesus of Nazareth, while not really understanding than it already may in fact BE that first cousin of Jesus without any effort at all, without having to become anything other than what it already is. I want, it wants, to shoot the Moon, to be the true realization of every magnificent dream, because it -- and I -- don’t know down deep that it is that already, that every one of us is that already.
I am not at all sure that I’ve even stayed with your question.
How is it for my heart not to know? How is it for my heart not to be in control, for it to let go of imposing its fantasy of what this is all going to be…?
I have to admit I’m confusing myself now. I need a moment. I’ll be back shortly – I have to move my car from where it is now to where I’m going to meet my wife and younger daughter. I’ll be back in a moment.
OK, I’m back. How is it, for my heart, not to know? Another response to that inquiry would be to recognize simultaneously that its not-knowing just doesn’t satisfy the somewhat teenaged version, its fantasy, of how all this would unfold… and at the same time it makes perfect sense in a larger way. And even as I say that, I still don’t get this whole thing! I don’t get it! AND there’s a letting-go and a dropping, and a falling, and a flying that are implied in here that are simultaneously nauseating, and terrifying, and absolutely ring true as what is the way, all at the same time.
And I still don’t know what the fork I’m talking about.
2) Sit on a comfortable chair with eyes closed. Pay attention to what are conventionally called baunderies, say where your body ends or where your body meets the chair. What is that in direct moment to moment experience? Can you find an induring identifiable boundery of the body and body/chair in moment to moment experience? Or are there shifting sensations combined with fleeting conscious and barely conscious thought images of body/room and inner talk that construct the sense of conventional devision and space? If you do not find a solid or stable boundery, sit with that. Tell me what you experience.
OK so: the funny thing here is that I have done exercises in the past just like this one, so I already have “in mind” where this is going to go, what it is that I will experience, in other words some head–based knowledge of what’s coming here. And yet of course I will do the exercise right now anyway just to re-experience this and tell you about it now.
OK, sitting now…
Actually, sitting again… and coming back to writing to you after a fairly long pause. I am in a completely new part of town, sitting out on the pier nearest to my apartment on the west side of Manhattan, sitting on the wooden floor against a bench, next to the water…
The experience directly is a funny mixture of very normal, what I am used to – people, moving, people strolling, the sun slowly down over the west end of New Jersey, and yet also…
If I go just to the physical sensations with eyes closed, there isn’t a sensation of boundaries. Everywhere in what I normally think of as “my body” that is in contact with any part of what I consider to be “the exterior world” or “not my body”…each one of the sensations is just one thing, with no boundary actually experienced between any thought-based “two things,” where thought may be delineating where some division might be. The way thought thinks of it is “my foot is touching the floor”, but each place where “my foot” touches “the floor” is experienced directly as just one sensation, involving some pressure, and as I sit here, a little bit of heat too. “My back” leaning against “this bench” is describable in two words, as two entities, but the actual experience of leaning back and being in contact is just one overall sensation.
All of which is to say: there is no boundary present in direct perception. The division is created in thought, post hoc.
I have not done any playing with “O” and “mu” and “Joe” and “malf” yet today, but tomorrow is another day.
Thank you again, Elad, for all of this. I look forward to hearing from you again and to continuing our conversation. I also confess, somewhat unimportantly, that it is nice not to be up in the middle of the night finishing this communication to you!
Many thanks again — I look forward to every mysterious next step as it may come.
With best wishes from
Josh(ua)
Let’s just go directly from your last message to me please:
“Joshua this is all great. Here are a couple of exercises, also keep playing with the letters as long as you are having fun and/or benefit with it. Regarding the not knowing, let's be curious about that.
1) Ask your heart how it is for it to not to know. Write me the answer. Don't be preconceived and don't be insensitive. Let's give your heart a safe space to talk and be heard.”
Ask my heart how it is for it not to know? The beginnings of tears spring into the corners of my eyes — and even more than just the beginning of tears, when you merely ask the question, and I consider it for half a moment. I don’t know why that should be so exactly… but it feels like some longstanding kind of yearning — for control, or for certainty, or for some kind of something that I don’t quite know how to define at the moment. My heart has wanted to know so badly! It has wanted a clue. It badly wants to wake up. It has wanted to be the realization of my fantasy of it…
And the funny thing is that I suspect it is that already, but there is a very heavy burden of wanting and needing and hoping and “trying to live up to” or to become some version of something that it had in mind. I have the funny suspicion that in fact, it is already all of what that fantasy might call for, but not in the way that it thought of it, or that I thought of it, or that some idea I had in mind called for.
I do kind of recognize its frustration as a funny tangle of misunderstanding and yearning and lovely-yet-also-misguided ambition. A lot of thoughts in here, as you can see. It’s a little hard to say all of this very well, but it’s a bit like my heart wanted or yearns to live up to its long-held fantasy…of being the first cousin of Jesus of Nazareth, while not really understanding than it already may in fact BE that first cousin of Jesus without any effort at all, without having to become anything other than what it already is. I want, it wants, to shoot the Moon, to be the true realization of every magnificent dream, because it -- and I -- don’t know down deep that it is that already, that every one of us is that already.
I am not at all sure that I’ve even stayed with your question.
How is it for my heart not to know? How is it for my heart not to be in control, for it to let go of imposing its fantasy of what this is all going to be…?
I have to admit I’m confusing myself now. I need a moment. I’ll be back shortly – I have to move my car from where it is now to where I’m going to meet my wife and younger daughter. I’ll be back in a moment.
OK, I’m back. How is it, for my heart, not to know? Another response to that inquiry would be to recognize simultaneously that its not-knowing just doesn’t satisfy the somewhat teenaged version, its fantasy, of how all this would unfold… and at the same time it makes perfect sense in a larger way. And even as I say that, I still don’t get this whole thing! I don’t get it! AND there’s a letting-go and a dropping, and a falling, and a flying that are implied in here that are simultaneously nauseating, and terrifying, and absolutely ring true as what is the way, all at the same time.
And I still don’t know what the fork I’m talking about.
2) Sit on a comfortable chair with eyes closed. Pay attention to what are conventionally called baunderies, say where your body ends or where your body meets the chair. What is that in direct moment to moment experience? Can you find an induring identifiable boundery of the body and body/chair in moment to moment experience? Or are there shifting sensations combined with fleeting conscious and barely conscious thought images of body/room and inner talk that construct the sense of conventional devision and space? If you do not find a solid or stable boundery, sit with that. Tell me what you experience.
OK so: the funny thing here is that I have done exercises in the past just like this one, so I already have “in mind” where this is going to go, what it is that I will experience, in other words some head–based knowledge of what’s coming here. And yet of course I will do the exercise right now anyway just to re-experience this and tell you about it now.
OK, sitting now…
Actually, sitting again… and coming back to writing to you after a fairly long pause. I am in a completely new part of town, sitting out on the pier nearest to my apartment on the west side of Manhattan, sitting on the wooden floor against a bench, next to the water…
The experience directly is a funny mixture of very normal, what I am used to – people, moving, people strolling, the sun slowly down over the west end of New Jersey, and yet also…
If I go just to the physical sensations with eyes closed, there isn’t a sensation of boundaries. Everywhere in what I normally think of as “my body” that is in contact with any part of what I consider to be “the exterior world” or “not my body”…each one of the sensations is just one thing, with no boundary actually experienced between any thought-based “two things,” where thought may be delineating where some division might be. The way thought thinks of it is “my foot is touching the floor”, but each place where “my foot” touches “the floor” is experienced directly as just one sensation, involving some pressure, and as I sit here, a little bit of heat too. “My back” leaning against “this bench” is describable in two words, as two entities, but the actual experience of leaning back and being in contact is just one overall sensation.
All of which is to say: there is no boundary present in direct perception. The division is created in thought, post hoc.
I have not done any playing with “O” and “mu” and “Joe” and “malf” yet today, but tomorrow is another day.
Thank you again, Elad, for all of this. I look forward to hearing from you again and to continuing our conversation. I also confess, somewhat unimportantly, that it is nice not to be up in the middle of the night finishing this communication to you!
Many thanks again — I look forward to every mysterious next step as it may come.
With best wishes from
Josh(ua)
Re: Hello!-JoshO
Greetings Elad –
Let’s just go directly from your last message to me please:
“Joshua this is all great. Here are a couple of exercises, also keep playing with the letters as long as you are having fun and/or benefit with it. Regarding the not knowing, let's be curious about that.
1) Ask your heart how it is for it to not to know. Write me the answer. Don't be preconceived and don't be insensitive. Let's give your heart a safe space to talk and be heard.”
Ask my heart how it is for it not to know? The beginnings of tears spring into the corners of my eyes — and even more than just the beginning of tears, when you merely ask the question, and I consider it for half a moment. I don’t know why that should be so exactly… but it feels like some longstanding kind of yearning — for control, or for certainty, or for some kind of something that I don’t quite know how to define at the moment. My heart has wanted to know so badly! It has wanted a clue. It badly wants to wake up. It has wanted to be the realization of my fantasy of it…
And the funny thing is that I suspect it is that already, but there is a very heavy burden of wanting and needing and hoping and “trying to live up to” or to become some version of something that it had in mind. I have the funny suspicion that in fact, it is already all of what that fantasy might call for, but not in the way that it thought of it, or that I thought of it, or that some idea I had in mind called for.
"I do kind of recognize its frustration as a funny tangle of misunderstanding and yearning and lovely-yet-also-misguided ambition. A lot of thoughts in here, as you can see. It’s a little hard to say all of this very well, but it’s a bit like my heart wanted or yearns to live up to its long-held fantasy…of being the first cousin of Jesus of Nazareth, while not really understanding than it already may in fact BE that first cousin of Jesus without any effort at all, without having to become anything other than what it already is. I want, it wants, to shoot the Moon, to be the true realization of every magnificent dream, because it -- and I -- don’t know down deep that it is that already, that every one of us is that already."
Are you sure you don't know down deep? This is a questions to down deep, to your heart. What if you don't know if you know? How is that?
Is there any feelings and thoughts that are incompatible with nonduality, with being the first cousin of Jesus?
With love,
Elad
Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.
- Kahlil Gibran
One gets there by being there.
- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)
Elad
Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.
- Kahlil Gibran
One gets there by being there.
- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)
Re: Hello!-JoshO
Are you sure you don't know down deep? This is a questions to down deep, to your heart. What if you don't know if you know? How is that?
Is there any feelings and thoughts that are incompatible with nonduality, with being the first cousin of Jesus?
Is there any feelings and thoughts that are incompatible with nonduality, with being the first cousin of Jesus?
With love,
Elad
Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.
- Kahlil Gibran
One gets there by being there.
- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)
Elad
Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.
- Kahlil Gibran
One gets there by being there.
- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)
Re: Hello!-JoshO
Dear Elad -
I’ll let you start us off here:
Are you sure you don't know down deep? This is a questions to down deep, to your heart. What if you don't know if you know? How is that?
Is there any feelings and thoughts that are incompatible with nonduality, with being the first cousin of Jesus?
I'm not at all sure that I don't know down deep. I suspect that the knowledge is somehow simultaneously actually there and yet not accepted. And there are times and ways in which the full living-out of that “first-cousin-of-Jesus” fantasy, which is not a fantasy, somehow cannot get lived out in the egoic, self-satisfying way that Mr. Fancy wants it to be lived out.
One of the things that has happened in this by-now long, long process “I” have pursued is that Joshua has had experiences which seemed very very similar to his fantasy version of what “enlightenment” would mean. Effortless insight, great empoweredness, clarity, “right alignment” of so many things which so often are so difficult to get to line up… and then, all of a sudden, they all line up for some reason. Almost miraculous levels of stuff that Mr. Fancy wants more of.
And then, poof! Those experiences also end, and I have been left bereft, wondering what happened, what it was that I had experienced, and “fiending” (a former teacher’s term) for the “drug” of that heightened experience.
I'm not sure that I'm addressing your question here yet, but this is where I am drawn at the moment.
I'm not sure that I know or don't know… and at the same time, it seems almost a certainty that in fact we *are* all first cousins of Jesus of Nazareth, and that in fact what you are guiding me toward, what Ilona points at in “Liberation Unleashed,” and in fact what all the teachers and guides are pointing out, more or less helpfully and usefully for those of us who have been out here trying to follow the breadcrumb-trail they all have been leaving for all of us…
And all of a sudden it seems to me that I am allowing myself to be sucked back into Storyland.
Let me hit “pause” here for a moment, and look back at your questions.
No, I’m not sure that I don’t know, way down deep. But I also somehow know and doubt at the same time.
And at this point in our conversation Elad, I have to suspect none of these thoughts is incompatible with nonduality, that they all arise without a self. This endless dance is happening without a self.
I would also like to let go of the compulsion to do that dance, and allow the not-knowing to be OK. I somehow yearn to know within the realm of not-knowing.
I still suspect that none of this precludes the possibility — the very strong likelihood — the almost-certain reality that we are the first cousin of Jesus of Nazareth.
And I am still loath to assert certainty of knowledge.
I thank you so very much for this conversation, Elad. This is the heart of everything for me, I am somehow moved to say. Thank you for your guidance, kindness, warmth, and help. And thank you for sticking with me in this.
O look forward to hearing from you and to continuing, despite Joe’s not knowing where it will go
With sincere thanks from
Yehoshua aka Joe
I’ll let you start us off here:
Are you sure you don't know down deep? This is a questions to down deep, to your heart. What if you don't know if you know? How is that?
Is there any feelings and thoughts that are incompatible with nonduality, with being the first cousin of Jesus?
I'm not at all sure that I don't know down deep. I suspect that the knowledge is somehow simultaneously actually there and yet not accepted. And there are times and ways in which the full living-out of that “first-cousin-of-Jesus” fantasy, which is not a fantasy, somehow cannot get lived out in the egoic, self-satisfying way that Mr. Fancy wants it to be lived out.
One of the things that has happened in this by-now long, long process “I” have pursued is that Joshua has had experiences which seemed very very similar to his fantasy version of what “enlightenment” would mean. Effortless insight, great empoweredness, clarity, “right alignment” of so many things which so often are so difficult to get to line up… and then, all of a sudden, they all line up for some reason. Almost miraculous levels of stuff that Mr. Fancy wants more of.
And then, poof! Those experiences also end, and I have been left bereft, wondering what happened, what it was that I had experienced, and “fiending” (a former teacher’s term) for the “drug” of that heightened experience.
I'm not sure that I'm addressing your question here yet, but this is where I am drawn at the moment.
I'm not sure that I know or don't know… and at the same time, it seems almost a certainty that in fact we *are* all first cousins of Jesus of Nazareth, and that in fact what you are guiding me toward, what Ilona points at in “Liberation Unleashed,” and in fact what all the teachers and guides are pointing out, more or less helpfully and usefully for those of us who have been out here trying to follow the breadcrumb-trail they all have been leaving for all of us…
And all of a sudden it seems to me that I am allowing myself to be sucked back into Storyland.
Let me hit “pause” here for a moment, and look back at your questions.
No, I’m not sure that I don’t know, way down deep. But I also somehow know and doubt at the same time.
And at this point in our conversation Elad, I have to suspect none of these thoughts is incompatible with nonduality, that they all arise without a self. This endless dance is happening without a self.
I would also like to let go of the compulsion to do that dance, and allow the not-knowing to be OK. I somehow yearn to know within the realm of not-knowing.
I still suspect that none of this precludes the possibility — the very strong likelihood — the almost-certain reality that we are the first cousin of Jesus of Nazareth.
And I am still loath to assert certainty of knowledge.
I thank you so very much for this conversation, Elad. This is the heart of everything for me, I am somehow moved to say. Thank you for your guidance, kindness, warmth, and help. And thank you for sticking with me in this.
O look forward to hearing from you and to continuing, despite Joe’s not knowing where it will go
With sincere thanks from
Yehoshua aka Joe
Re: Hello!-JoshO
Good stuff Joshua,
1) Calling yourself "Mr. Fancy" - pay attention if it in fact helps release into more ease and clarity or if it uncosnciously takes a superior judgemental position to the humanity of wishing more wonderful experiences of allignment, synchronicity, wonder and power and knowing and love. Who amongst us who have had experiences of that kind, that felt deep, do not prefer those over experiences of dreariness, failure, averageness, loss, repeated patterns of limitation, insecurity and doubt etc.? I can fully relate. Do you want to allow the humanity in this be a doorway and pointer to no-separation? Do you want to look for how all that points to no separate controller, no separate self?
2) What is the repeated feeling or experience in your life that "a part of you" would least like to accept is not separate from no-self and will not necessarily go away "after awakening"?
1) Calling yourself "Mr. Fancy" - pay attention if it in fact helps release into more ease and clarity or if it uncosnciously takes a superior judgemental position to the humanity of wishing more wonderful experiences of allignment, synchronicity, wonder and power and knowing and love. Who amongst us who have had experiences of that kind, that felt deep, do not prefer those over experiences of dreariness, failure, averageness, loss, repeated patterns of limitation, insecurity and doubt etc.? I can fully relate. Do you want to allow the humanity in this be a doorway and pointer to no-separation? Do you want to look for how all that points to no separate controller, no separate self?
2) What is the repeated feeling or experience in your life that "a part of you" would least like to accept is not separate from no-self and will not necessarily go away "after awakening"?
With love,
Elad
Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.
- Kahlil Gibran
One gets there by being there.
- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)
Elad
Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.
- Kahlil Gibran
One gets there by being there.
- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)
Re: Hello!-JoshO
Greetings Elad -
Let me just start in by having your words in front of me here:
“Good stuff Joshua,
1) Calling yourself "Mr. Fancy" - pay attention if it in fact helps release into more ease and clarity or if it uncosnciously takes a superior judgemental position to the humanity of wishing more wonderful experiences of allignment, synchronicity, wonder and power and knowing and love. Who amongst us who have had experiences of that kind, that felt deep, do not prefer those over experiences of dreariness, failure, averageness, loss, repeated patterns of limitation, insecurity and doubt etc.? I can fully relate. Do you want to allow the humanity in this be a doorway and pointer to no-separation? Do you want to look for how all that points to no separate controller, no separate self?
Hello Elad -
YES, I certainly, absolutely do want the humanity in this life-situation to be a doorway and a pointer to no-separation, yes, yes, yes. But I skipped over what you said before that, and I don't quite want to.
Calling a certain aspect of this personality "Mr. Fancy” is not the kindest way to go, you are quite right. And I think you are right in the fact that I do, perhaps quite understandably, hope for, look for, seek for "more wonderful experiences of alignment, synchronicity, wonder and power and knowing and love." Of course I want those things, and when you put it that way, I don't even mind that I do. There is an aspect of the project here, though, of which I am a bit more skeptical.
It may just be impatience and unkindness on my part, but there is also a way in which my seeking has had to do with seeking for specialness, and the approval of others, and worldly gain, and all of the egoic levels on which an ego might seek for "stardom.” Perhaps it is innocuous childishness, but the desire to be a “star” can also be found lurking in a corner inside the project of seeking as well — at least in my case, sometimes — and I want to be very careful of it, even if it is not much more than a holdover from more childish ways of thinking and looking at the world.
I so appreciate your kindness in asking the question, though. And I don't want to overplay or overstate unnecessarily my lingering partial–skepticism about what Joe wants from this process, about what Joe actually truly hopes for from the possibility of passing through the Gateless Gate. I understand well enough that whatever my expectations may be about what happens, it is likely that the way I hold that entire conglomerate of possibility in my mind may have very little to do with what actually transpires in the living of that process.
OK, I've gotten to the place where I've exhausted myself again with words, so it's good time to drop Mr. Talkative and return to your guidance again. Look, dissing happening again. I wonder what is really going on with calling this poor fellow all these unfriendly names. I will try to follow your lead and be kinder to him -- because I'm quite sure that it's not about release into greater ease or clarity.
Yes, I do very very much want to allow the humanity in this to be a doorway and pointer to no-separation. I have instead been using it as an excuse to be judgmental of my own human frailty. Yes, I do want to look for how all of that points to no separate controller, and no separate self. I would be thrilled, honestly, for that rather profound inversion of perspective you suggested to take place – as it already begins to just from your asking the question. Thank you for that.
On to your next Q:
2) What is the repeated feeling or experience in your life that "a part of you" would least like to accept is not separate from no-self and will not necessarily go away "after awakening"?
Oh my my my. All of the weakness, all of the blindness, all of the broken, selfish, fearful doubtings. I would say, “forgetting who I truly am, who we all truly are”… if I could truly remember it in the first place!
Even as I say that, I can't help but remember that our (presumed) first cousin, to whom I pointed most recently, after all demonstrated some of the profoundest weakness and brokenness and defeat that a human being can be made to endure. As Eckhart Tolle once said on one of the recordings of his that I have listened to (many times, in fact) in reference to Jesus: one can't get much more limited than being nailed to a cross and tortured to death. Profoundest limitation, much more profound than I hope ever to experience – although, of course, this body will die like every other body dies, some day. Not that particular way, I do hope.
I love to discuss all of these things, Elad. This area of contemplation, of discussion, of inquiry… this has been my favorite area of thinking and looking and talking and wondering for many years now — most of the whole 33-odd years that I have been looking. But I really don't want my love of words, talking, language, noise-making, to get in the way of productive progress. I will look to you, in this new era or moment, to let me know if I am going too far here or anywhere.
Let me see as I wrap up here that these questions your post to me tonight are truly wonderful. Thank you for them so much. Thank you for this entire conversation. Thank you for this opportunity. I can't even really see very much into what's possible here, what the future may bring…
but I am very hopeful, and excited, and thankful to have found my way into this process here with you. Thank you very, very much indeed.
What a nice thing to close this letter, not unreasonably expecting to hear from you again soon. I look forward to it eagerly and thank you very sincerely for the gift of this conversation, and process, and chance.
With my sincere thanks and best wishes
Josh(ua), Joe, Y’Hoshua, Mr. Gentler-than-previously. Good evening.
Let me just start in by having your words in front of me here:
“Good stuff Joshua,
1) Calling yourself "Mr. Fancy" - pay attention if it in fact helps release into more ease and clarity or if it uncosnciously takes a superior judgemental position to the humanity of wishing more wonderful experiences of allignment, synchronicity, wonder and power and knowing and love. Who amongst us who have had experiences of that kind, that felt deep, do not prefer those over experiences of dreariness, failure, averageness, loss, repeated patterns of limitation, insecurity and doubt etc.? I can fully relate. Do you want to allow the humanity in this be a doorway and pointer to no-separation? Do you want to look for how all that points to no separate controller, no separate self?
Hello Elad -
YES, I certainly, absolutely do want the humanity in this life-situation to be a doorway and a pointer to no-separation, yes, yes, yes. But I skipped over what you said before that, and I don't quite want to.
Calling a certain aspect of this personality "Mr. Fancy” is not the kindest way to go, you are quite right. And I think you are right in the fact that I do, perhaps quite understandably, hope for, look for, seek for "more wonderful experiences of alignment, synchronicity, wonder and power and knowing and love." Of course I want those things, and when you put it that way, I don't even mind that I do. There is an aspect of the project here, though, of which I am a bit more skeptical.
It may just be impatience and unkindness on my part, but there is also a way in which my seeking has had to do with seeking for specialness, and the approval of others, and worldly gain, and all of the egoic levels on which an ego might seek for "stardom.” Perhaps it is innocuous childishness, but the desire to be a “star” can also be found lurking in a corner inside the project of seeking as well — at least in my case, sometimes — and I want to be very careful of it, even if it is not much more than a holdover from more childish ways of thinking and looking at the world.
I so appreciate your kindness in asking the question, though. And I don't want to overplay or overstate unnecessarily my lingering partial–skepticism about what Joe wants from this process, about what Joe actually truly hopes for from the possibility of passing through the Gateless Gate. I understand well enough that whatever my expectations may be about what happens, it is likely that the way I hold that entire conglomerate of possibility in my mind may have very little to do with what actually transpires in the living of that process.
OK, I've gotten to the place where I've exhausted myself again with words, so it's good time to drop Mr. Talkative and return to your guidance again. Look, dissing happening again. I wonder what is really going on with calling this poor fellow all these unfriendly names. I will try to follow your lead and be kinder to him -- because I'm quite sure that it's not about release into greater ease or clarity.
Yes, I do very very much want to allow the humanity in this to be a doorway and pointer to no-separation. I have instead been using it as an excuse to be judgmental of my own human frailty. Yes, I do want to look for how all of that points to no separate controller, and no separate self. I would be thrilled, honestly, for that rather profound inversion of perspective you suggested to take place – as it already begins to just from your asking the question. Thank you for that.
On to your next Q:
2) What is the repeated feeling or experience in your life that "a part of you" would least like to accept is not separate from no-self and will not necessarily go away "after awakening"?
Oh my my my. All of the weakness, all of the blindness, all of the broken, selfish, fearful doubtings. I would say, “forgetting who I truly am, who we all truly are”… if I could truly remember it in the first place!
Even as I say that, I can't help but remember that our (presumed) first cousin, to whom I pointed most recently, after all demonstrated some of the profoundest weakness and brokenness and defeat that a human being can be made to endure. As Eckhart Tolle once said on one of the recordings of his that I have listened to (many times, in fact) in reference to Jesus: one can't get much more limited than being nailed to a cross and tortured to death. Profoundest limitation, much more profound than I hope ever to experience – although, of course, this body will die like every other body dies, some day. Not that particular way, I do hope.
I love to discuss all of these things, Elad. This area of contemplation, of discussion, of inquiry… this has been my favorite area of thinking and looking and talking and wondering for many years now — most of the whole 33-odd years that I have been looking. But I really don't want my love of words, talking, language, noise-making, to get in the way of productive progress. I will look to you, in this new era or moment, to let me know if I am going too far here or anywhere.
Let me see as I wrap up here that these questions your post to me tonight are truly wonderful. Thank you for them so much. Thank you for this entire conversation. Thank you for this opportunity. I can't even really see very much into what's possible here, what the future may bring…
but I am very hopeful, and excited, and thankful to have found my way into this process here with you. Thank you very, very much indeed.
What a nice thing to close this letter, not unreasonably expecting to hear from you again soon. I look forward to it eagerly and thank you very sincerely for the gift of this conversation, and process, and chance.
With my sincere thanks and best wishes
Josh(ua), Joe, Y’Hoshua, Mr. Gentler-than-previously. Good evening.
Re: Hello!-JoshO
Hi Josh good work. Wishes to be special are very ordinary.
Is condemning or judging or trying to get rid of them gonna help us attend to what just is, caringly and simply? Do we have to make them go away in order to have clarity, compassion, and love - or can they actually be included as one of the phenomena that appear in clarity, compassion and love, and be one more way we can relate with countless others?
How is it to not find a self except as a thought construction? How is it too repeatedly see that you only find it when lost in daydreams, thoughts, distractednness?
Is there anything or any place where you still imagine there is a self? No, right?
Is condemning or judging or trying to get rid of them gonna help us attend to what just is, caringly and simply? Do we have to make them go away in order to have clarity, compassion, and love - or can they actually be included as one of the phenomena that appear in clarity, compassion and love, and be one more way we can relate with countless others?
How is it to not find a self except as a thought construction? How is it too repeatedly see that you only find it when lost in daydreams, thoughts, distractednness?
Is there anything or any place where you still imagine there is a self? No, right?
With love,
Elad
Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.
- Kahlil Gibran
One gets there by being there.
- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)
Elad
Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.
- Kahlil Gibran
One gets there by being there.
- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)
Re: Hello!-JoshO
Greetings Elad -
I'm just going to take your last entry, put it here before me, and respond, chunk by chunk.
“Hi Josh good work. Wishes to be special are very ordinary.
Is condemning or judging or trying to get rid of them gonna help us attend to what just is, caringly and simply? Do we have to make them go away in order to have clarity, compassion, and love - or can they actually be included as one of the phenomena that appear in clarity, compassion and love, and be one more way we can relate with countless others?”
Well, gosh. As soon as you say it, it seems very obvious. Wishes to be special *are* very ordinary, and I immediately know that condemning or judging or trying to get rid of them will not help us attend to what is, what simply is, currently and simply. No, I do not believe that we have to make them go away in order to have clarity, compassion, and love. In fact, as you have helpfully pointed out, they are phenomena that appear in this life, very humanly. What a nice idea to turn things around as you’ve pointed out could be, to use them to recognize our own inherent humanity and inherent connectedness, inherent fraternity, with all the other human beings.
“How is it to not find a self except as a thought construction? How is it too repeatedly see that you only find it when lost in daydreams, thoughts, distractednness?”
My experience of your questions is somehow simultaneously that I see immediately that the assertion your question contains is true, and also that I only re-begin to perceive its truth as I read the words of your question. In other words, it seems to me that I re-noticed the truth that I can only find a self “when last in daydreams, thoughts, distractedness”, only again now that you are saying it in the form of that question. I seems that I don’t bathe in it all day, I don’t feel it without trying to do so all day long.
My recent experience of life all day long has been quite “normal.” it feels like it goes normally, I go about my business, and do my work, and make my lunch, and perhaps go for a walk, all with the memory of the fact of our ongoing conversation in the back of my mind, “simmering on a back burner of the stove,” as it were. I hadn't really actively noticed today, that is to say, that in fact I cannot find a self except as a thought construction. And then you come along and point it out again, and then, in fact, I see again that I cannot find a self except as a thought construction, and only do when I get sucked back into the world of “living as if thinking is living” — my habitual setting for most of the entirety of my lifetime, more or less since I learned my own name.
“Is there anything or any place where you still imagine there is a self? No, right?”
No, I don’t really imagine that there is a separate self, but it feels to me like something that I accept intellectually more completely then some thing that I feel all the time. I still “feel” like there’s a self in here (that is, when I’m not actively noticing that I can’t find one). I suppose it feels to me like I kind of "get it", at the same time as that I haven’t “gotten it.” Does that make any sense to you? I feel like I accept the concept, and that I do keep noticing that I'm not able to find a separate self when I go looking for one… And yet, when the vigilant looking is not actively taking place, I sort of forget what it is I cannot find.
I confess to you, Elad, that what feels like somewhat partial, mostly intellectual yielding on my part does not yet feel like the transformation I have dreamt of. I look forward to all next steps in this process with boyish eagerness!
Good evening meanwhile. I look forward to hearing from you and to all next eager boyish steps!
Best wishes from
Josh(ua)
I'm just going to take your last entry, put it here before me, and respond, chunk by chunk.
“Hi Josh good work. Wishes to be special are very ordinary.
Is condemning or judging or trying to get rid of them gonna help us attend to what just is, caringly and simply? Do we have to make them go away in order to have clarity, compassion, and love - or can they actually be included as one of the phenomena that appear in clarity, compassion and love, and be one more way we can relate with countless others?”
Well, gosh. As soon as you say it, it seems very obvious. Wishes to be special *are* very ordinary, and I immediately know that condemning or judging or trying to get rid of them will not help us attend to what is, what simply is, currently and simply. No, I do not believe that we have to make them go away in order to have clarity, compassion, and love. In fact, as you have helpfully pointed out, they are phenomena that appear in this life, very humanly. What a nice idea to turn things around as you’ve pointed out could be, to use them to recognize our own inherent humanity and inherent connectedness, inherent fraternity, with all the other human beings.
“How is it to not find a self except as a thought construction? How is it too repeatedly see that you only find it when lost in daydreams, thoughts, distractednness?”
My experience of your questions is somehow simultaneously that I see immediately that the assertion your question contains is true, and also that I only re-begin to perceive its truth as I read the words of your question. In other words, it seems to me that I re-noticed the truth that I can only find a self “when last in daydreams, thoughts, distractedness”, only again now that you are saying it in the form of that question. I seems that I don’t bathe in it all day, I don’t feel it without trying to do so all day long.
My recent experience of life all day long has been quite “normal.” it feels like it goes normally, I go about my business, and do my work, and make my lunch, and perhaps go for a walk, all with the memory of the fact of our ongoing conversation in the back of my mind, “simmering on a back burner of the stove,” as it were. I hadn't really actively noticed today, that is to say, that in fact I cannot find a self except as a thought construction. And then you come along and point it out again, and then, in fact, I see again that I cannot find a self except as a thought construction, and only do when I get sucked back into the world of “living as if thinking is living” — my habitual setting for most of the entirety of my lifetime, more or less since I learned my own name.
“Is there anything or any place where you still imagine there is a self? No, right?”
No, I don’t really imagine that there is a separate self, but it feels to me like something that I accept intellectually more completely then some thing that I feel all the time. I still “feel” like there’s a self in here (that is, when I’m not actively noticing that I can’t find one). I suppose it feels to me like I kind of "get it", at the same time as that I haven’t “gotten it.” Does that make any sense to you? I feel like I accept the concept, and that I do keep noticing that I'm not able to find a separate self when I go looking for one… And yet, when the vigilant looking is not actively taking place, I sort of forget what it is I cannot find.
I confess to you, Elad, that what feels like somewhat partial, mostly intellectual yielding on my part does not yet feel like the transformation I have dreamt of. I look forward to all next steps in this process with boyish eagerness!
Good evening meanwhile. I look forward to hearing from you and to all next eager boyish steps!
Best wishes from
Josh(ua)
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