Keeping It Simple

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Bluejay
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Re: Keeping It Simple

Postby Bluejay » Fri Jul 21, 2023 4:40 pm

I hadn't done it yet, but did it yesterday. The fear feeling arose and eventually it revealed itself as something like a sense of separation... like "armor" keeping the vulnerable-but-authentic-childhood-Geoff safe from the world that could hurt it (and has). The fear feeling moved from my stomach to my heart and then when I saw the above, it dissipated! And then I laughed, it was nice. And then it snapped back around my heart, lol. Talking about it at therapy later that day, my therapist said she thinks I have a deep sense of non-belonging... "alone" in a way. Seems like a thing to continue trying to have "speak to me" via the deep looking, without trying to turn that into a side project, I guess.
Sounds good!

Keep tuning in to resistance and fear like this. Find out the reason for the resistance, like 'I have to protect myself' and ask if it is still needed.

And then you can reverse it by saying 'I don't have to protect myself' and then simply feel anything that comes up, and do this until the well is dry, so to speak. Once is rarely enough.

I think most people have something like this. It's rare that someone grows up in an environment where 100% authentic expression is allowed.

It's also common that as children we find refuge in thinking and fantasy, so there can be an attachment to thought. It's like a safe place you can retreat to. In reality, there is no need to retreat, and as adults, this attachment leads to suffering.
I agree with all of the above, it seems hard to stop believing thoughts, though. Like I can have the thought "I am not believing you" but otherwise it's just sort of like...trying to ignore them? Or accept that they're there but not get pulled farther down the story? I can do the unfindable inquiry to see that a specific thought isn't "it" or "me" or a "doer" but by the time I'm doing the inquiry it's already shifted to the next thing. Like whack-a-mole.
It doesn't matter if new thoughts come as you do the inquiry. The thoughts themselves don't matter. For the inquiry, you're looking at if there is validity to the claims.

And this is really what it comes down to: Are thoughts worthy of the authority most people give them?

The answer is no. On my journey, there was a natural questioning of thoughts from an early age. It started when, for example, I was working out and a thought would come and say "That's enough. I'm tired."

I'd keep going anyway and eventually realize that thoughts are irrelevant. This then turned into a 'practice' of often doing the opposite of thoughts. This combative stance has since softened :)

But this helped in seeing that thoughts don't really contribute much of anything. Working thoughts are fine for when you are doing things. Narrative thoughts aren't needed.

Here's something to explore:

Label-Reality Correlation

There is a belief that labels have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’. But there isn’t. Just like it is a generally accepted belief that labels like ‘good’ and ‘bad’ are inherent characteristics of ‘things’. But actually, they are not.

When you look at the word label ‘GREEN' , what is the actual experience?

Is the color red ‘experienced’, or is the color green ‘experienced’ as the label suggests?

Does the label ‘GREEN’ have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’? Or does the label suggest something else other than what is here now (red colour)?

Is 'green' associated in any way with the experience of the colour red; or is green just a label that overlays the actual experience of red?

If the label ‘GREEN’ is replaced with the label ‘GOOD’ or ‘BAD’ , is the redness affected in any way as the labels suggests?

Does redness become ‘good’ or ‘bad’, or do the labels have no effect whatsoever on ‘reality’?


Let me know what is seen.

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Re: Keeping It Simple

Postby gbeene » Sat Jul 22, 2023 5:07 pm

Hey, father in law is visiting so I've been a bit distracted / cutting my sit time, I will continue to investigate and report back tomorrow!


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Re: Keeping It Simple

Postby Bluejay » Sat Jul 22, 2023 5:13 pm

Got it!

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gbeene
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Re: Keeping It Simple

Postby gbeene » Sun Jul 23, 2023 3:57 pm

It doesn't matter if new thoughts come as you do the inquiry. The thoughts themselves don't matter. For the inquiry, you're looking at if there is validity to the claims.
Got it. I think this is another expectations snag, like to do it "right" I need to be getting to a place without thought. Or pushing thoughts away. It's hard to believe that I'd "get it" when my mind is so loud/noisy.
When you look at the word label ‘GREEN' , what is the actual experience?

Is the color red ‘experienced’, or is the color green ‘experienced’ as the label suggests?

I feel a little like this exercise may be a trick question, as red OR green are just labels...it's just visual data.... but if we're not doing this exercise at that level it's just the color red experienced on that word.

Does the label ‘GREEN’ have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’? Or does the label suggest something else other than what is here now (red colour)?

The label Green is referring to a memory or thought of the visual input "green" which is not here right now.

Is 'green' associated in any way with the experience of the colour red; or is green just a label that overlays the actual experience of red?

Other than thoughts and memories about them both being colors, their places in color wheels, etc, it is just a word...

If the label ‘GREEN’ is replaced with the label ‘GOOD’ or ‘BAD’ , is the redness affected in any way as the labels suggests?

Does redness become ‘good’ or ‘bad’, or do the labels have no effect whatsoever on ‘reality’?
No change on the visual red whatsoever. The only changes are thoughts and associations (like red = 'bad', such as a wrong answer on a test)

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Bluejay
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Re: Keeping It Simple

Postby Bluejay » Sun Jul 23, 2023 4:23 pm

Got it. I think this is another expectations snag, like to do it "right" I need to be getting to a place without thought. Or pushing thoughts away. It's hard to believe that I'd "get it" when my mind is so loud/noisy.
Sit with one or several of these (whichever hits the spot the most):

- it's okay to not get things right
- it's okay if I don't get things perfect
- I don't have to understand

How often do you sit with the sentences I give like the one above? Do you sit and welcome whatever comes up until the charge is gone, or do you kind of forget about it?

Forgetting is fine. I'm trying to gauge whether I should be reminding you.
I feel a little like this exercise may be a trick question, as red OR green are just labels...it's just visual data.... but if we're not doing this exercise at that level it's just the color red experienced on that word.
No trick questions in this one, just your run of the mill overthinking ;-)
Other than thoughts and memories about them both being colors, their places in color wheels, etc, it is just a word...
With the labeling exercise done, do you see how this applies to thoughts and thinking?
It's hard to believe that I'd "get it" when my mind is so loud/noisy.
Let's start being more direct with all this...

What is it that is going to get it?

What is this referring to?

What is 'my mind' in direct experience?

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gbeene
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Re: Keeping It Simple

Postby gbeene » Sun Jul 23, 2023 5:21 pm

How often do you sit with the sentences I give like the one above? Do you sit and welcome whatever comes up until the charge is gone, or do you kind of forget about it?

Forgetting is fine. I'm trying to gauge whether I should be reminding you.
I do forget. I think in my 2 30min sit a day I have a lot of options of avenues to explore and this one doesn't make the top of the list that often :) though as fear has been coming up I've tried doing the Ilona inquiry on it.
With the labeling exercise done, do you see how this applies to thoughts and thinking?
Yea, I was trying to do this with other things. Like looking at a tree and thinking "fish". Or feeling fear and thinking "joy". You know, just messing with the language. I mostly felt confused haha.
Let's start being more direct with all this...

What is it that is going to get it?

What is this referring to?

What is 'my mind' in direct experience?
Good questions. I'll explore off cushion today.


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Re: Keeping It Simple

Postby Bluejay » Sun Jul 23, 2023 5:31 pm

I do forget. I think in my 2 30min sit a day I have a lot of options of avenues to explore and this one doesn't make the top of the list that often :) though as fear has been coming up I've tried doing the Ilona inquiry on it.
You know, the emotional stuff often don't make the list unless there's a focus on it, because it's uncomfortable, and the whole system is made to avoid uncomfortable things, so you never end up addressing it, and the loop continues.

So which one of these would you say has the most charge?

- it's okay to not get things right
- it's okay if I don't get things perfect
- I don't have to understand

Perhaps an idea would be to allocate at least a 10-15min slot to sitting with sentences and the emotional material they bring up?

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gbeene
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Re: Keeping It Simple

Postby gbeene » Sun Jul 23, 2023 5:34 pm

So which one of these would you say has the most charge?

- it's okay to not get things right
- it's okay if I don't get things perfect
- I don't have to understand

Perhaps an idea would be to allocate at least a 10-15min slot to sitting with sentences and the emotional material they bring up?
"I don't have to understand", for sure. Doubt has a firm grip on general feelings/statements that if I don't maintain control, "do" things, "get it", or perfect a technique, nothing will ever happen. It's almost like anger or frustration comes up. "If I don't understand, what am I supposed to do, just SIT HERE??" :)


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Re: Keeping It Simple

Postby Bluejay » Sun Jul 23, 2023 5:37 pm

"I don't have to understand", for sure. Doubt has a firm grip on general feelings/statements that if I don't maintain control, "do" things, "get it", or perfect a technique, nothing will ever happen. It's almost like anger or frustration comes up. "If I don't understand, what am I supposed to do, just SIT HERE??" :)
Excellent. Can you sit with this sentence and welcome whatever comes up without getting caught up in thinking too much?

The focus is to say the sentence then feel what comes up. Then as it dies down, you repeat the sentence and repeat the process. You do this until there's no charge.

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Re: Keeping It Simple

Postby Bluejay » Sun Jul 23, 2023 5:39 pm

Forgot to mention that what often revs up thoughts are the emotional charges and programs running in the background.

The thinking is a distraction from feeling.

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Re: Keeping It Simple

Postby gbeene » Mon Jul 24, 2023 3:57 pm

I sat with "I don't need to understand", "I am doing fine", "I don't need to be protected", "I am not excluded" and so on - I would say I had fairly mild emotional reactions today, nothing too juicy or wrenching, but I did sit and watch the feeling (primarily chest sensations) as they came up before doing other inquiry.

Looked at "What is the mind in direct experience?" and "What is going to "get it""? and no clear answers. It seems like there's no "mind" or that "mind" is a concept itself, or a label, if direct experience is just sensations and thoughts. But I wouldn't say there was anything like a felt understanding of that. Chased the looker for a bit. Played around with not calling it a looker, played with ignoring labels or not repeating labels for things like eyeballs or "head". The eyeball thing seemed to hit a fear nerve as I briefly felt a surge of energy and my breathing became quicker.

Had one moment where my phone/watch buzzed and I saw "annoyance" as a chest sensation + mental label annoyance and that there really wasn't anything to "get" annoyed. But it felt like "I" was watching that happen.

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Re: Keeping It Simple

Postby Bluejay » Mon Jul 24, 2023 4:10 pm

I sat with "I don't need to understand", "I am doing fine", "I don't need to be protected", "I am not excluded" and so on - I would say I had fairly mild emotional reactions today, nothing too juicy or wrenching, but I did sit and watch the feeling (primarily chest sensations) as they came up before doing other inquiry.
Please do keep sitting until each sentence feels neutral. Don't be in a hurry with this. It is worth it.
Looked at "What is the mind in direct experience?" and "What is going to "get it""? and no clear answers. It seems like there's no "mind" or that "mind" is a concept itself, or a label, if direct experience is just sensations and thoughts. But I wouldn't say there was anything like a felt understanding of that. Chased the looker for a bit. Played around with not calling it a looker, played with ignoring labels or not repeating labels for things like eyeballs or "head". The eyeball thing seemed to hit a fear nerve as I briefly felt a surge of energy and my breathing became quicker.
The lack of an answer IS the answer.

When you get no clear answers, sit 'in' that not knowing or space or whatever it is. Sit there until the body gets it (especially with "self"). When the mind tries to label, come back to sitting in it.

Also keep turning it back...

What is chasing the looker?
Does a sensation chase? Does a thought?
Are 'you' chasing something?
Is there you chasing, or just chasing happening?

Are you playing around?
Is there control over this process?
Had one moment where my phone/watch buzzed and I saw "annoyance" as a chest sensation + mental label annoyance and that there really wasn't anything to "get" annoyed. But it felt like "I" was watching that happen.
Very nice. Yes, there doesn't have to be anything to get annoyed. It's conditioning in the body, you could say.

You were watching it happen? Okay, what is the experience of "I" here?
What are the building blocks (senses) that make up this watching "I"?

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Re: Keeping It Simple

Postby gbeene » Tue Jul 25, 2023 5:17 pm

Please do keep sitting until each sentence feels neutral. Don't be in a hurry with this. It is worth it.
I think I know the answer before asking this, but do you know of any ways to get these senses of fear, doubt, etc to "pony up" what they want? I've been sitting with them -- I think my question sounds harsher than I actually treat myself/these feelings, I try to watch them quietly, surround them with love, be patient, tell them they're OK, etc, but not a lot of clear answers as to why they're there.
What is chasing the looker?
Does a sensation chase? Does a thought?
Are 'you' chasing something?
Is there you chasing, or just chasing happening?

Are you playing around?
Is there control over this process?
I guess it's just thoughts. There's nowhere to chase, there's nowhere for things to actually go here, that has to all be fabricated. Not trying to sidestep the questioning with "I guess", just trying to indicate it's not a felt knowing yet.
You were watching it happen? Okay, what is the experience of "I" here?
What are the building blocks (senses) that make up this watching "I"?
Trying to answer in direct experience... it's basically a thought or sense applied to a sensation, and the sensation that "claims" it continually shifts. So it can't be the sensation. If it's a thought, it's such a closely-worn thought, like a contact lens over the "mind's eye" or something. It feels like a sense of location when all other sensations are being seen as not-it. I think location falls under "mental image" but it seems like a different mental image than like, imagining a picture of an octopus or something.

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Re: Keeping It Simple

Postby Bluejay » Tue Jul 25, 2023 5:31 pm

I think I know the answer before asking this, but do you know of any ways to get these senses of fear, doubt, etc to "pony up" what they want? I've been sitting with them -- I think my question sounds harsher than I actually treat myself/these feelings, I try to watch them quietly, surround them with love, be patient, tell them they're OK, etc, but not a lot of clear answers as to why they're there.
When you say a sentence, it will bring up objections, and you welcome those fully. You don't want to welcome with the purpose of getting rid of them. If you find yourself doing that, you can say: I want this energy to stay forever -- and then sit with what comes up there.

You basically say the sentence and then immerse yourself in what comes up. Let it take up as much space as it wants.

If you feel something in your body (agitation, irritation, fear, etc), you can always ask: What does this energy want to communicate?

Or what does this energy mean about me?

Does that help?
I guess it's just thoughts. There's nowhere to chase, there's nowhere for things to actually go here, that has to all be fabricated. Not trying to sidestep the questioning with "I guess", just trying to indicate it's not a felt knowing yet.
Good that you noticed the 'I guess'. I was going to comment on that :-)

With each of the questions I ask, please look for each one if you aren't already. It will eventually start to feel boring or pointless, but keep looking. Boring/pointless is another barrier which can be turned into a sentence (I want this - This isn't pointless).
a closely-worn thought
What is the experience of a closely-worn thought compared to a 'normal' thought?

Look in direct experience. No guessing. No 'seems like'. What is the actual difference?
It feels like a sense of location when all other sensations are being seen as not-it. I think location falls under "mental image" but it seems like a different mental image than like, imagining a picture of an octopus or something.
And what makes it different?

Compare an image of a normal real-life camera and the watching "I" -- look at all the building blocks -- what is the difference?

What is the reference the watching "I" is making that the normal image is not?

In other words ... how do you know that it's different?

Don't answer in thinking, because it will be more of the same of "Oh it's behind everything and it's the all-knowing ice cream master of the world," instead look at the five senses, because that is what will be different in the configuration.

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Re: Keeping It Simple

Postby Bluejay » Tue Jul 25, 2023 5:33 pm

I try to watch them quietly, surround them with love, be patient, tell them they're OK, etc, but not a lot of clear answers as to why they're there.
One more thing on this...

It won't always be obvious. Sometimes you might get an image or a few words, so after you ask, just relax and let the movie play.

And sometimes there may be no message. There doesn't have to be. If that's the case, you just feel. If there's resistance to them taking too long, then you just go with "this isn't taking too long - this is okay to stay forever."


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