The Gate

Good evening Seb,

I would say that there is a possibility that this thought is a belief that obscures something.

What is the mechanism? How does a belief obscure?
Describe the nature of a thought that you label a. belief.

I think that a belief is a thought designed to veil something from us. To stop us from digging deeper, to find premature peace. Like the idea of the masonry/gods/Jews running the world. To take responsibility out of our hands.

Say something that you believe. (say "it will get light tomorrow morning") and see how it feels. What are the sensations that come when you say it?
Then say something that you don't believe (like "the sun will disappear tomorrow forever") and notice what sensations happen.

Do you know David R. Hawkins? He mapped the levels of consciousness using body reactions to certain statements, which I found a bit fishy. But it didn't affect the fact that I've been using his techniques in the past and found them very effective.

Truth would be "no belief", just what is

Is that the same as "recognizing what is actual and what is conceptual"?[/code]
I *believe* that we'll never know what's actualnamd that we are destined to live in conceptions one way or the other. It's the matter of being aware that we are :)

whenever I am conscious of this mechanism working, I do it.

Test this to see if it's more (or less) accurate.. "whenever thoughts arise about this stuff, then other thoughts arrive saying "remember to think about the impossibility of separateness" ?

It's like setting a thought booby trap for other thoughts XD

Good evening Seb,

I think that a belief is a thought designed to veil something from us. To stop us from digging deeper,

so you think that the way it works is to leaders, astray? To divert our attention away from something?

Say something that you believe. (say "it will get light tomorrow morning") and see how it feels. What are the sensations that come when you say it?
Then say something that you don't believe (like "the sun will disappear tomorrow forever") and notice what sensations happen.

You didn't actually do this...

I *believe* that we'll never know what's actual and that we are destined to live in conceptions one way or the other. It's the matter of being aware that we are :)

OK, that's a deep dive.
i agree, but usually we have to get there in a roundabout way.
Using the concept of Direct experience, we can imagine that for a millisecond that a touch is just a touch, or a sound is just a sound etc. For practical purposes, it's easy to see the speed with which thoughts arrive to explain and describe ETC. I say yes, for practical purposes, it's stories all the way down.
So if it is all stories... How do we relate to them?

whenever I am conscious of this mechanism working, I do it.

Let's try this again.. What is implied in your statement that is obviously not accurate (at the level that we are discussing this)

with love

vince

Good evening Seb,

I think that a belief is a thought designed to veil something from us. To stop us from digging deeper,

so you think that the way it works is to leaders, astray? To divert our attention away from something?

Yes, I think it's there to make us numb, pacify us. These are thoughts and thought constructs like fate, guilt, fear etc. They cover something and we don't want or we think that we don't have to look that way at all.

Say something that you believe. (say "it will get light tomorrow morning") and see how it feels. What are the sensations that come when you say it?
Then say something that you don't believe (like "the sun will disappear tomorrow forever") and notice what sensations happen.

You didn't actually do this...

Something I don't believe evokes unpleasant tension, something I believe - relaxation.

I *believe* that we'll never know what's actual and that we are destined to live in conceptions one way or the other. It's the matter of being aware that we are :)

OK, that's a deep dive.
i agree, but usually we have to get there in a roundabout way.
Using the concept of Direct experience, we can imagine that for a millisecond that a touch is just a touch, or a sound is just a sound etc. For practical purposes, it's easy to see the speed with which thoughts arrive to explain and describe ETC. I say yes, for practical purposes, it's stories all the way down.
So if it is all stories... How do we relate to them?

Some are terrified by the idea, but I find peace in them.
What does ETC stand for?

whenever I am conscious of this mechanism working, I do it.

Let's try this again.. What is implied in your statement that is obviously not accurate (at the level that we are discussing this)

Everything :) that there is an "I" that sees the mechanism, that "I" decided to implement a reaction every time the mechanism is observed, that "I" has been doing the implementing part throughout the time.

Good evening Seb,

ey cover something and we don't want or we think that we don't have to look that way at all.

Would you go as far as to say that beliefs are a fear response?

Something I don't believe evokes unpleasant tension, something I believe - relaxation.

So It would be easy to see why lots of people believe stupid shit?

What does ETC stand for?

Etc stands for etcetera which means more of the same.

I find peace in them.

Excellent. Yes, there is a wonderful equanimity holding the loosely in a good humored way.

with love

vince

Would you go as far as to say that beliefs are a fear response?

I think it may boil to that. Fear, anxiety, uncertainty. If the mind doesn't want that it creates something "solid", like a god.

Something I don't believe evokes unpleasant tension, something I believe - relaxation.

So It would be easy to see why lots of people believe stupid shit?

Oh, yes.

I find peace in them.

Excellent. Yes, there is a wonderful equanimity holding the loosely in a good humored way.

Funny observation I made is that I have been always afraid that I believe in something and not see that I do. That I am being fooled by my mind. It's not that I want to know the truth (I don't know what it is) but that I am not seeing everything that I am capable of seeing. This goes directly against my awakening's main realisation that whatever is - is. It is impossible for anything to ever be different than it is.
I wrote "funny" because you wrote "good humored way" but actually I don't find it funny. I think it is the most exhausting contradiction theme of my life.

Good evening Seb,

I think it may boil to that. Fear, anxiety, uncertainty. If the mind doesn't want that it creates something "solid", like a god.

..or like a self. Even though it only exists as a story, it is armour. A ploy to keep us away from the fear, anxiety, and uncertainty.

but that I am not seeing everything that I am capable of seeing. This goes directly against my awakening's main realisation that whatever is - is. It is impossible for anything to ever be different than it is.

Ok, this is a little bit tricky but has the potential to provoke a further shift...
Seeing. Not seeing. being fooled by mind stuff, it all is IT. It IS.
It's not possible that what IS can be 'wrong'.
There's always more to discover. Once we get all of this mind shit out of the way, there will (most likely) be body stuff to be released. Stuff that our body has been hiding from us since our infant trauma happened.

I think it is the most exhausting contradiction theme of my life.

Say more about this...

with love

vince

Seeing. Not seeing. being fooled by mind stuff, it all is IT. It IS.
It's not possible that what IS can be 'wrong'.

Yes, totally agree.

There's always more to discover. Once we get all of this mind shit out of the way, there will (most likely) be body stuff to be released. Stuff that our body has been hiding from us since our infant trauma happened.

Well, I can feel that. But I don't really know where to dig. Well, I do fear suffering and being helpless in the suffering. I think this may be the entry point. The rest of my fears have been mostly worked through and befriended and trust me, there was a load.

I think it is the most exhausting contradiction theme of my life.

Say more about this...

Well, the story says that I've always been a weird guy, not fitting. As a young adult I was diagnosed and treated for depression (wrongly). I've had existential problems, not mental illness. I never understood and knew who I was. Who "I" was. I have always been looking for solution to this "problem". There is still a drone, remnants of that search, even though more than a decade ago I woke up to the realisation that there is nothing to be found, that everything that is - is. So there is like a default mental activity of not being content with what is and a counterweight of knowing that that's 100% it. There is a constant play between these two, I cannot settle in either of these for long because the other one pulls.

'evening Seb,

There's always more to discover

I don't really know where to dig.

We don't need to dig. Life offers opportunities for discovery pretty constantly. This is why the meet ups are so valuable. You're hanging out with those that speak the same language and aren't totally controlled by societal niceties.
In other words they will question anything that sounds 'off'.

Well, I do fear suffering and being helpless in the suffering. I think this may be the entry point.

Keep in mind that the problem (suffering) is the solution. (for the un-awakened parts of you)
So, is suffering is the solution to the fear? is it 'beneath' the fear being the solution to suffering? (I know that this might sound a little whacky, but contemplate it.

So there is like a default mental activity of not being content with what is and a counterweight of knowing that that's 100% it. There is a constant play between these two, I cannot settle in either of these for long because the other one pulls.

The picture that you present here is like a tug-of-war between two opposing perspectives.
The 100% knowing isn't 100% to it would be finished the first time it happened.
It could be that the knowing just treats the symptoms in a bypassing way.
The mental activity (the discontent) persists because you believe the stories attached to it.
Now, we can't control what we believe, but we can examine it. Examination usually invites change..
Write a short story about not being content.

with love

vince

Well, I do fear suffering and being helpless in the suffering. I think this may be the entry point.

Keep in mind that the problem (suffering) is the solution. (for the un-awakened parts of you)
So, is suffering is the solution to the fear? is it 'beneath' the fear being the solution to suffering? (I know that this might sound a little whacky, but contemplate it.

I feel as if the fear was rather a pointer to where a stone has to be turned. But I will think about what you wrote.

The mental activity (the discontent) persists because you believe the stories attached to it.
Now, we can't control what we believe, but we can examine it. Examination usually invites change..

Yes, I can see that.

Write a short story about not being content.

You mean, literally? I haven't written any fiction since high school XD

On a side note...
I just listened to Enlightening Quotes and I had a little revelation as to why I have problems with understanding what's being said here. For some reason I am looking for mutual understanding but it seems that it is not possible. Here are some quotes from EQ and my reactions to them...
"Reality is non conceptual, it just is. You need to see this (that "I" does not exist) clearly and directly for yourself. Just like you see that there is no Batman in this room right now." "I is a thought concept therefore it is not real". Well, define reality and real! What you directly experience equals (roughly) perceptions. Perceptions and experiences are within a framework of a system. If you assume that what you experience or perceive or feel is real - than this is your definition of reality, you just CREATED a system, a point of reference. And you started building on it. But in my understanding Batman is real. He is not assembled with energy vibrations/atoms into the shape of a body, but he is still real, alive and kicking as a concept. In some sense he is more real than anyone here, more people know him, he has been around for longer than most of us and will outlive every single one of us. On the other hand - you (LU) say the chair, or a sound, or any other sensation is real (as in direct experience). So you assume that if you can see something and touch it, or feel it, it is real. Of course it is not. When you immerse yourself in a video game it becomes real. The chair is just certain assembly of energy knots known as subatomic particles that, by super complicated processes are represented in the mind as sensation of touch or a color, or a shape, or smell. Chair, Tony Blair, Fata Morgana, guilt, love, Batman, "I" exist and do not exist at the same time, depending on assumed framework. Neither of above are decision makers, controllers or experiences, whatever the definition of reality we choose. I think that I assume different framework than yours (LU's). I have nothing solid, every experience is just an interpretation of a nervous system building up to a mind that thoughts and feelings appear in. There is no way to define real, everything can be deconstructed because everything had been constructed prior! "Now you have something solid to compare the fog to" - oh, no I don't.

Good evening Seb, It was really good to talk face to face with you this morning. i gained a greater understanding of your 'situation' from it than I could get from this kind of communication.

I just listened to Enlightening Quotes a

I think that it is a good idea for you to stop searching in other areas for a few weeks.
You are not a seeker (in spite of seeming to seek). You are now an explorer looking to 'clean up' some unexplored areas.
It will be much more fruitful for you to look inward for a resolution to the 'nothingness', rather than looking for an external 'fix'.
To start with, although the experience is 'dry', it is a solution to something.
We don't need to know what. Acknowledging that there is some 'gain' from experiencing this is enough. (although, that's a big one) It's not an enemy. It is a (misguided) attempt by some fundamental part of you (even though that doesn't exist) to look after you. To protect you from something.
Although there is some basic intention to change it, the best way for this to happen is for you to embrace it. To treat is as a friend and welcome it for the good intentions that has for you.
Oh, and don't compare your ? to others. We are all on a unique path.

with love

vince

Thank you. I have been quiet because:

It will be much more fruitful for you to look inward for a resolution to the 'nothingness', rather than looking for an external 'fix'.

Good evening Seb, How's that "dryness" going.
i saw no hint of it when listening to you this morning. You sound well lubricated.
Just to wind up with the forum here, let me know when you feel ready for the final questions. i have no doubt that you have broken the fetter of identification with a self.

with love

vince

Thank you for the meeting, it was a bit weird because the talking was happening on my side but I did not control it, I have no recollection of what I was talking about or what was actually said, will have too listen to this. The only thing I know for sure is that there was too much of it XD
I am in the process of letting emotions back into my life bit by bit, and I'm trying to feel these bits thoroughly one after another. Now it's just a dripping tub, I have to tease them out, provoke them to show up.

Just to wind up with the forum here, let me know when you feel ready for the final questions.

What are these? Something like an exam of sorts?

What are these? Something like an exam of sorts?

kind of. the purpose is mainly to finish on the forum and the answers to the questions are submitted to other guides to see if they think that there is more work to do on the first two fetters.
If we get three confirms then you will be invited to guide (if that is something you are interested in)
You will also get invited to a Facebook group whith others that have 'passed the gate'.
i am confident that you recognize the illusion of a self and that you have no doubts about it.

with love

vince

Well, I have no way of telling. If you think I am ready then let's go for it :)