Looking for a guide

[okjose]

Is shape direct experience or a thought?

You're right, shape is thought.

Good that grappling is happening.

Rest in the grappling, see what's beyond it, around it :)

Thanks, I'll do that. Feels like things need to settle after that last exercise. I see what you mean in regards to this being an autonomous process. There's certainly no controlling this. There was a lot of energy moving about after that last exercise. I just went out for a walk and my senses are heightened but I also feel a bit tired and hazy but in a good way. Going to go out for another walk and just stay with experience/whatever comes up.

[Bluejay]

There was a lot of energy moving about after that last exercise. I just went out for a walk and my senses are heightened but I also feel a bit tired and hazy but in a good way. Going to go out for another walk and just stay with experience/whatever comes up.

Very nice. Let's take a break for 24 hours or so. Let me know tomorrow what's going on, and if you want more time.

[okjose]

Sounds good thanks Henri, will be in touch tomorrow

[okjose]

Morning Henri,

Before I start telling you about my day yesterday I just wanted to say thank you for everything so far and for taking the time to guide me in all of this, it really is appreciated. You've helped me immensely already :) I don't know how this is all working but life feels better for it.

So yesterday I went for a nice long walk, it's very green where I live on the outskirts of Dublin City. I even walked along the sea wall without much care for the thoughts of what others might think haha. I had a lot of excited energy and then some shivers after the last experiment and so a walk was the best thing.

As my girlfriend was saying goodbye to me this morning to leave for work I suddenly felt a bit self conscious (as I sometimes do but think I hide It well) and with a bit of fear and so it was clear the "self" was appearing and being believed.
I realised it was an opportunity to investigate. It was clear there was an image/thought of a Jose character with certain attributes.. I then got into thinking about how it's like a character that's created and then believed in. I looked at this for a while and had some interesting thoughts about how this is the same as the label ego and egos can have many believed attributes... I was writing my thoughts as they came on my phone. But then this got me to asking "what the simple truth of what's here". Whats been on my mind this morning is how simple things actually are. That seems to be where peace resides.. the mind/self/thought content is complicated but the simple truth or reality is very simple.. too simple for the mind to do anything with maybe. At the moment I just want to keep looking/investigating but I know how slippery the "self" can be.
I know there is no "self" really as it can't be found apart from in imagination and that can change at any moment. But it's like I'm still caught in its web, or I'm half way or in a web of thought and thinking. Maybe that's fine though I'm not sure. What I do know is that I want to keep seeing things for what they are and keep investigating. At the same time it feels likely that things will unfold naturally.

[Bluejay]

Before I start telling you about my day yesterday I just wanted to say thank you for everything so far and for taking the time to guide me in all of this, it really is appreciated. You've helped me immensely already :) I don't know how this is all working but life feels better for it.

Happy to do it :)

As my girlfriend was saying goodbye to me this morning to leave for work I suddenly felt a bit self conscious (as I sometimes do but think I hide It well) and with a bit of fear and so it was clear the "self" was appearing and being believed.

This self consciousness--are you in control of it? What is it referring to? Anything?

Where is the one that says that this self-consciousness or fear coming up is a problem?

And what image do you hold of seeing through the self illusion that you are comparing against? Does it exclude self-consciousness and fear?

But it's like I'm still caught in its web, or I'm half way or in a web of thought and thinking. Maybe that's fine though I'm not sure. What I do know is that I want to keep seeing things for what they are and keep investigating. At the same time it feels likely that things will unfold naturally.

This is normal and to be expected. There's a lot of conditioning, and it will keep coming up to be reviewed. Simply keep looking for a controller, agent, doer, feeler, and so on.

Maybe now would be a good time to rewatch this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJQcD588g2w

So I take it you want to continue with the exploration and exercises?

I'm happy to keep going :-)

[okjose]

This self consciousness--are you in control of it? What is it referring to? Anything?

No I can't be, it just arises. I'm not here as a controller. It/self consciousness is a reflex by the mind and body most likely from a past trauma of fear of not being loved or being rejected. So it's like a hyper awareness and trying to control what it thinks is being seen by the other. But simply it arises and there's no "me" making that happen or a controlling of how "I" am perceived.

Oh it's referring to a thought, it's simply thought and then another thought about that thought :)

Where is the one that says that this self-consciousness or fear coming up is a problem?

Looking back now, I think that "one" was a thought that was believed to be a me or an entity. Like a deeper thought but in reality it's all the same thought stuff.

And what image do you hold of seeing through the self illusion that you are comparing against? Does it exclude self-consciousness and fear?

Yes this hits the nail on the head and uncovers a belief. It's a projection of a future self that doesn't have these "problems" any longer. That's just a thought in itself.

But it's like I'm still caught in its web, or I'm half way or in a web of thought and thinking. Maybe that's fine though I'm not sure. What I do know is that I want to keep seeing things for what they are and keep investigating. At the same time it feels likely that things will unfold naturally."
This is normal and to be expected. There's a lot of conditioning, and it will keep coming up to be reviewed. Simply keep looking for a controller, agent, doer, feeler, and so on.

Maybe now would be a good time to rewatch this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJQcD588g2w

Yes that was good timing to bring up the video. And what you said to keep looking for a controller when they arise, this helps a lot. I'll keep doing so.

So I take it you want to continue with the exploration and exercises?

Yes please :)

[Bluejay]

Oh it's referring to a thought, it's simply thought and then another thought about that thought :)

Yes, exactly.

All we are doing here at Liberation Unleashed is to see that there is no agent, doer, controller, witness, and so on.

This is not about eliminating fear, never thinking another thought, or always feeling blissful. I still have flashes of fear, worry, and everything else, but they disappear much quicker, and there's much less of those thoughts.

What's different is that "I" don't think I control any of it, or can do anything about it. If doing happens, it happens.

Yes this hits the nail on the head and uncovers a belief. It's a projection of a future self that doesn't have these "problems" any longer. That's just a thought in itself.

This is what I want to explore next with you; all these thoughts about how it should be. So this would be the next exercise:

What is it in your life that you don't want that you think or want seeing through the self illusion will 'fix'?

Look at how you suffer in daily life, your biggest pain points. What do you 'secretly' wish this would fix? What are you waiting to happen?

If I could wave a magic wand and give you everything you want, what is it you would wish for?

If there's an answer that seems silly, that's exactly what we're looking for. We're looking for the fantasies.

Yes that was good timing to bring up the video. And what you said to keep looking for a controller when they arise, this helps a lot. I'll keep doing so.

And if you feel inclined to, separate all the senses.

If there's a sense of self having fear and being self-conscious, where is that in the body?

What senses are involved in this? Can they even be 'involved'?

Look at each sense, is there an "I" there?

Can a sensation be self-conscious?

Enjoy :)

[okjose]

This is what I want to explore next with you; all these thoughts about how it should be. So this would be the next exercise:

What is it in your life that you don't want that you think or want seeing through the self illusion will 'fix'?

I think it's any sort of discomfort whether that be fear, boredom, anger, tension, the biggest one at the moment being social anxiety. But I do see a bit of value in those things, like they exist for a reason and I wouldn't want a life where I didn't feel anything ever. But I have a belief seeing through self would be liberation from suffering.
Also for a very long time I've had the fantasy that one day life will start and I'll be fulfilled, the goal or achievement that will make life start and be fulfilling has changed over the years, now it's liberation or seeing through self, in the past it was might have been a career goal or a girlfriend... that picture of life starting changes all the time but it's like a scene of me having a blast and living a life full of joy ad it's all sunny... (a bit like someones social media reel). That's a difficult one to admit and it feels like I know better than to believe that and it doesn't even make logical sense but it's been a recurring thought/fantasy.

Look at how you suffer in daily life, your biggest pain points. What do you 'secretly' wish this would fix? What are you waiting to happen?

I think the biggest pain points are social anxiety and how at times that effects my relationship with my partner and fear, anger and jealousy. And being caught in thought storms or incessant thinking. I secretly wish that this will fix any negative thinking about myself and any discomfort whether that be fear, boredom, desires. Also theres a big part that's hard to admit and that is wanting people to like me or feeling accepted. It sounds silly because I'm fortunate to have many people in my life who do but it's a fantasy that I'll suddenly realise there's no self and there'll be a life changing moment of bliss and understanding and then from that day on my life will start and everyone I meet will feel interested in me and I'll be able to help and give peace and comfort to others. My dad is quite old now and he suffers a lot with bad health and depression so there's also this fantasy that I'll get to liberation and then be able to bring him to it too.

If I could wave a magic wand and give you everything you want, what is it you would wish for?

I guess liberation and I guess that label refers to a thought of a me being constantly in peace and feeling bliss and love. And that would be life starting.

And if you feel inclined to, separate all the senses.

If there's a sense of self having fear and being self-conscious, where is that in the body?

What senses are involved in this? Can they even be 'involved'?

Look at each sense, is there an "I" there?

Can a sensation be self-conscious?

This is so clear and helpful thank you I'll try to follow it like this every time.

[Bluejay]

Thank you for your willingness, honesty, and openness, Jose!

These answers are great.

I think it's any sort of discomfort whether that be fear, boredom, anger, tension, the biggest one at the moment being social anxiety. But I do see a bit of value in those things, like they exist for a reason and I wouldn't want a life where I didn't feel anything ever. But I have a belief seeing through self would be liberation from suffering.
Also for a very long time I've had the fantasy that one day life will start and I'll be fulfilled, the goal or achievement that will make life start and be fulfilling has changed over the years, now it's liberation or seeing through self, in the past it was might have been a career goal or a girlfriend... that picture of life starting changes all the time but it's like a scene of me having a blast and living a life full of joy ad it's all sunny... (a bit like someones social media reel). That's a difficult one to admit and it feels like I know better than to believe that and it doesn't even make logical sense but it's been a recurring thought/fantasy.

There's a reason we say that seeing through the self illusion is just the beginning. The path to full liberation doesn't end with the self illusion, it starts with it. So there seems to be some confusion for you about the beginning of the path and full liberation.

All the reactionary stuff like anger, irritation, desire, cravings, frustration, and so on... that comes after seeing through the self-illusion.

Regarding 'one day life will start': This is the carrot the mind dangles to get you to run in circles. You wouldn't be here doing this inquiry without the discomfort in your life.

This is it. This is 'your' life, exactly as it should be.

Nothing is out of place. How could it be?

The self illusion is part of this fantasy, because all these illusions are ways to avoid seeing what 'life' really is. It's absolutely ordinary.

I think the biggest pain points are social anxiety and how at times that effects my relationship with my partner and fear, anger and jealousy. And being caught in thought storms or incessant thinking. I secretly wish that this will fix any negative thinking about myself and any discomfort whether that be fear, boredom, desires. Also theres a big part that's hard to admit and that is wanting people to like me or feeling accepted. It sounds silly because I'm fortunate to have many people in my life who do but it's a fantasy that I'll suddenly realise there's no self and there'll be a life changing moment of bliss and understanding and then from that day on my life will start and everyone I meet will feel interested in me and I'll be able to help and give peace and comfort to others. My dad is quite old now and he suffers a lot with bad health and depression so there's also this fantasy that I'll get to liberation and then be able to bring him to it too.

It may lessen all of that, or it may not.

There can also be bliss, but even that is a passing experience. Some experience years of bliss after seeing through self, yet they too come down from that and have to face reality. For me it was just a simple "Oh" moment in the kitchen.

So even if bliss happens, where is the experiencer of that?

Sorry to hear about your dad. Even that is included in life. Nothing is excluded.

The self illusion is created to give a sense of control, because that can alleviate the uncertainty of life. That's why many don't do this. This can be terrifying, but when you go through that seeming terror, there's freedom.

I guess liberation and I guess that label refers to a thought of a me being constantly in peace and feeling bliss and love. And that would be life starting.

And this is why there can be grief and sadness as the self-illusion falls away. These fantasies become less energized. In a way, all of this is innocent, in the sense that all that is wanted is to feel good and to avoid suffering.

Yet the clinging to fantasy is the suffering.

So all we're doing here is seeing if there's a self that these fantasies belong to. Is there someone controlling it? Someone deciding to do any of this?

And that's it.

This is so clear and helpful thank you I'll try to follow it like this every time.

No need to do it every time, because where is the one that's going to control that? :--)

Oh wait, I remember. The ultimate controller of the Universe (it has a mini helper as well to control the smaller things):

[okjose]

Thank you for your willingness, honesty, and openness, Jose!

Thank you Henri, you're responses here are heart warming.

There's a reason we say that seeing through the self illusion is just the beginning. The path to full liberation doesn't end with the self illusion, it starts with it. So there seems to be some confusion for you about the beginning of the path and full liberation.

Yes there has been a lot of confusion, I think it comes from reading so many books. And also hearing one person say “there is no path” and another say “these are the steps” and so an idea of how this should be approached was formulated, but of course that was an idea and all of these messages can be taken out of a context.
I have to say after spending so much time everyday watching youtube videos and reading books on non duality in the lead up to starting this process. Being told to put all those those things on hold to do this was a liberation in itself haha

Regarding 'one day life will start': This is the carrot the mind dangles to get you to run in circles. You wouldn't be here doing this inquiry without the discomfort in your life.

Yes this is true. And the carrot analogy is so spot on.

This is it. This is 'your' life, exactly as it should be.

Nothing is out of place. How could it be?

Yes exactly :)

The self illusion is part of this fantasy, because all these illusions are ways to avoid seeing what 'life' really is. It's absolutely ordinary.

This whole process at times has felt a bit like a winding down or slowing down. A constant pointing to what's actually here / the ordinary :)

Sorry to hear about your dad. Even that is included in life. Nothing is excluded.

Thank you, yes this is so true.

Yet the clinging to fantasy is the suffering.

Yes! This puts it in a nutshell nicely.

So all we're doing here is seeing if there's a self that these fantasies belong to. Is there someone controlling it? Someone deciding to do any of this?

I've noticed I'm questioning this sense of control more and more. Things can be more enjoyable and fluid when the imaginary reins are let go of.

And that's it.
This is so clear and helpful thank you I'll try to follow it like this every time.
No need to do it every time, because where is the one that's going to control that? :--)

Haha yes It actually felt wrong at the time writing that last half of that statement.

Oh wait, I remember. The ultimate controller of the Universe (it has a mini helper as well to control the smaller things):

Thanks for the laugh! I could imagine a whole story book about the self using these illustrations haha

Image

[Bluejay]

Yes there has been a lot of confusion, I think it comes from reading so many books. And also hearing one person say “there is no path” and another say “these are the steps” and so an idea of how this should be approached was formulated, but of course that was an idea and all of these messages can be taken out of a context.
I have to say after spending so much time everyday watching youtube videos and reading books on non duality in the lead up to starting this process. Being told to put all those those things on hold to do this was a liberation in itself haha

And it's good to remember that sometimes people are expressing where they are. Someone that just had an experience of oneness might say "there is no path" and that's true in the absolute sense, but there's also the relative world, where there are seeming steps and frameworks.

These frameworks are also just concepts, so in that sense they do not exist, but they can be helpful. The finger pointing at the moon is not the moon and all that.

Or like the Label exercise, these concepts are irrelevant, but they can evoke and shift something within.

To me it simply comes down to: Is this useful right now?

If it's useful, then I don't care if I have to do a weird rain dance, or throw ice cream at babies. I'll do it! :)

Thanks for the laugh! I could imagine a whole story book about the self using these illustrations haha

They're great images! Google to the rescue :)

Ok, so now, a question or two:

Is there a self, a controller, a witness, a decider anywhere in experience?

Is there a self that is separate from life?

Also pay attention to any "But I'm still not..." or "It's still..." and let me know what comes up.

[okjose]

And it's good to remember that sometimes people are expressing where they are. Someone that just had an experience of oneness might say "there is no path" and that's true in the absolute sense, but there's also the relative world, where there are seeming steps and frameworks.

These frameworks are also just concepts, so in that sense they do not exist, but they can be helpful. The finger pointing at the moon is not the moon and all that.

Or like the Label exercise, these concepts are irrelevant, but they can evoke and shift something within.

Thank you this clears it up neatly and nicely!

To me it simply comes down to: Is this useful right now?

If it's useful, then I don't care if I have to do a weird rain dance, or throw ice cream at babies. I'll do it! :)

Haha, yes this makes sense and also made me laugh out loud

Ok, so now, a question or two:

Is there a self, a controller, a witness, a decider anywhere in experience?

When I first look in experience it's clear and evident there is no self here.. there's just clear space. But there's something that is very hard to articulate. The inner voice pops up and says "I'm a me see" and this is in sync with sensation and eye movement giving the strong sense of a controller inside and this can be believed as a me or not like it can be seen both ways.. but whats interesting is it feel good to look at or to look in this direction, like it was being ignored or not included. I think there have been times where I have not wanted to see any inkling of a "me" because there was a trying to see no self and a bias towards seeing no self so this created a pushing away of feelings or sensation or anything labeled a self. Or an artificial clinging on to something so I don't loose it feeling. So I believe the good feeling and relaxing in my core comes when that region or sensation is looked or acknowledged because finally it's being included and seen and theres a sense of feeling whole and grounded. Again it's in the solar plexus region and theres the same or similar sensation there from when we did the "There is no inherent self, is it true" exercise. Something subtle felt like its lifted like I feel a bit lighter and the sensation in my solar plexus feel less dense and more empty and airy.

Sorry if i'm making this too complicated. Whatever is going on feels good and like it needed to be released i'm feeling lighter inside.

Is there a self that is separate from life?

No but the inner voice seems separate from everything else. Thinking feels separate.

Also pay attention to any "But I'm still not..." or "It's still..." and let me know what comes up.

[Bluejay]

The inner voice pops up and says "I'm a me see" and this is in sync with sensation and eye movement giving the strong sense of a controller inside and this can be believed as a me or not like it can be seen both ways

Who or what is the owner of this voice?

And what is it referring to when it says "I'm a me see"?

What can this inner voice control?

but whats interesting is it feel good to look at or to look in this direction, like it was being ignored or not included. I think there have been times where I have not wanted to see any inkling of a "me" because there was a trying to see no self and a bias towards seeing no self so this created a pushing away of feelings or sensation or anything labeled a self. Or an artificial clinging on to something so I don't loose it feeling. So I believe the good feeling and relaxing in my core comes when that region or sensation is looked or acknowledged because finally it's being included and seen and theres a sense of feeling whole and grounded.

Yes, this is good too. Include everything in experience and relax into it.

Again it's in the solar plexus region and theres the same or similar sensation there from when we did the "There is no inherent self, is it true" exercise. Something subtle felt like its lifted like I feel a bit lighter and the sensation in my solar plexus feel less dense and more empty and airy.

Sorry if i'm making this too complicated. Whatever is going on feels good and like it needed to be released i'm feeling lighter inside.

There's a time and place for inquiry and for simply allowing what comes up. So this is good. Trust your own experience. No need to push anything away :)

No but the inner voice seems separate from everything else. Thinking feels separate.

Also pay attention to any "But I'm still not..." or "It's still..." and let me know what comes up.

Look closer at this:

How does the inner voice create separation?

Can you find the borders?

Examine the sensations that make the thinking feel separate? Are they really separate?

What creates the separation in thinking?

Did you forgot to answer the "But I'm still not..." here or just pasted it there randomly?

Another important note now that you've done quite a few exercises: Thinking can start to take over and say "There's no me here," but it's important that you look with fresh eyes each time, as if for the first time.

[okjose]

I think a few things shifted after the feeling in my solar plexus moved on. Nothing major or dramatic just it's hard to feel that inner voice as a me again. Or it's less believed. It's funny because as I type it's the same voice that reads the words as I type.

I think a big part of what's happening is that there's a thought that goes "this voice is a me" and then a secret voice saying "This shouldn't be happening" Like an attempt to get rid or ignore any idea or belief of a "me".
The same as the self conscious thought of an image of how "I" look at any given moment. Theres another thought secretly saying "this shouldn't be happening, this is a me". I know we've covered this but it's becoming cleare that this was going on a lot more than first realised. And seems to be how thoughts or sensations or emotions get their charge or get stuck.

Who or what is the owner of this voice?

It's an effort now to assume this inner voice is me again. It's another thought says I am the owner or the body is the owner.

And what is it referring to when it says "I'm a me see"?

It seems to be standing more on it’s own now and seen more as a thought. It refers back to itself.

What can this inner voice control?

Nothing at all. That one seems easy to answer. But I think there still a sense sense of a controller. If the voice can't control itself what controls the thought? It's hard to say "nothing is controlling it" but the more I look I see it's just automatic like a bodily function like breathing, or heart pumping. It's not personal.

No but the inner voice seems separate from everything else. Thinking feels separate.

Look closer at this:

How does the inner voice create separation?

It can’t really but I think the illusion is created through contraction of muscles and sensation in the the head area and the illusion or imagination of it being contained in something. And a fixed focus of attention in one area.

Can you find the borders?

No I can't. Thought of sound and sounds from the outside world don’t have a border between each other. But it’s like they're in a different realm (for lack of a better word). For example maybe like how smell and sensation feel separate but theres no line between them. But the sound of the inner voice is feeling more equal to sounds from the world around. Or in other words the inner voice has less importance or centre stage.

Examine the sensations that make the thinking feel separate? Are they really separate?

No they're not separate. it's just contraction of muscles and focus on sensation that are actually part of everything else or the same as other sensations.

What creates the separation in thinking?

It’s the imagination/illusion of it happening inside a body and with a lot of focus directed towards one place. And the idea that it's contained and no others can hear it or see it.

Did you forgot to answer the "But I'm still not..." here or just pasted it there randomly?

No thanks for checking that was pasted randomly.

[Bluejay]

I think a few things shifted after the feeling in my solar plexus moved on. Nothing major or dramatic just it's hard to feel that inner voice as a me again. Or it's less believed. It's funny because as I type it's the same voice that reads the words as I type.

I think a big part of what's happening is that there's a thought that goes "this voice is a me" and then a secret voice saying "This shouldn't be happening" Like an attempt to get rid or ignore any idea or belief of a "me".
The same as the self conscious thought of an image of how "I" look at any given moment. Theres another thought secretly saying "this shouldn't be happening, this is a me". I know we've covered this but it's becoming cleare that this was going on a lot more than first realised. And seems to be how thoughts or sensations or emotions get their charge or get stuck.

Yes!

This is why you hear people say that "nothing changes" when the self illusion is seen through.

Don't worry if we've covered something. Repetition is often key, so share whatever comes up.

Nothing at all. That one seems easy to answer. But I think there still a sense sense of a controller. If the voice can't control itself what controls the thought? It's hard to say "nothing is controlling it" but the more I look I see it's just automatic like a bodily function like breathing, or heart pumping. It's not personal.

Now that is the question, isn't it... What does control the thought?

Can you predict the next thought?

Can you stop certain thoughts?

Even the responses to these questions to try and disprove the above questions arise by themselves. Were they predicted or controlled by something or someone?

It can’t really but I think the illusion is created through contraction of muscles and sensation in the the head area and the illusion or imagination of it being contained in something. And a fixed focus of attention in one area.

Yes. This is good. You are seeing the senses separated.

And is there even an owner for this whole process?

Look in each sense, is there an "I" in the contractions or the sensations, or imagination?

If not, how do they together become an "I"? (don't explain, stay with the looking)

Do you even control the focusing? Is there a focusER?

It’s the imagination/illusion of it happening inside a body and with a lot of focus directed towards one place. And the idea that it's contained and no others can hear it or see it.

No others can hear or see it, but is there someone seeing or hearing it inside?

Or is it simply arising?

Is there someone separate from life doing the thinking, seeing, and hearing, or is it all life life'ing like in the stream exercise?