Breaking through views

[Dhvictoria]

Hello Wesley,

I notice that you are writing more irregularly lately, I don't know if that is the LU way or you are busy. I would appreciate to know either way out of human respect and commonality.

I have just ended the Heart Sutra 9 days retreat 'online' and neither words, even less concepts can describe it, only silence. I shall go into nature, may it all bring fruits!. In that note I need to let you know that tomorrow Friday midday, I leave for a residential weekend retreat in the country until Sunday evening. I hope this is ok if short notice.

If I get your feedback tomorrow morning, it would be wonderful to answer it before departing, and would be great to have the feedback when I arrive on Sunday.

Wishing you a fine weekend whatever you do.

Victoria

[Dhvictoria]

Hi again,

I don't find my previous response on the 3 May... I eventually find it, alone, on its own by looking through the numbered post, strange...

Good night!

Vc

[Dhvictoria]

This is the reply to you on the 3 May, I paste it here, in case you can't find it!

Hello Wesley,

I picked up a three objects;

No, There was no “I” in the process of picking them, I picked them at random; they picked themselves, really, no “I’ in opening and closing my hands; they just do it themselves. The hands opened and closed themselves there was no “I” entity in the action,

What made me do it? well you asked me to do it and I aspire to break free, and then they sort of did themselves.

Why did? because you asked me, but they did the action themselves, not having the volition of doing it would be counter productive doing LU enquiry, so in that sense that was the only option to me because I am here for the purpose of breaking through views, and contacting with direct experience feels satisfying as training for that, that is why “I” did it.

With gratitude

Victoria

[WesleySPK]

Hi Victoria,

Very sorry for the delay I have some personal things going on, I will respond tonight.

W

[Dhvictoria]

Don't worry Wesley! look after yourself, I wish you well whatever it is.

I am now leaving for the weekend retreat so I will not be back until Sunday evening. I

With gratitude

Victoria

[WesleySPK]

Hi Victoria,

I'm very sorry but I've had some big life decisions come up and between all of this and my school that still isn't quite finished, I decided to stop guiding. Quite simply, I just have too much on my plate and I won't be able to respond as consistant as you probably need.

I apologize as I wasn't expecting much of what just recently happened to me, otherwise I wouldn't have signed up for guiding. I'm not happy it and for the inconvenience it causes you but I just don't have it in me at the moment.

I am going to reach out to the other guides to see if someone can replace me, what do you think?

Enjoy your retreat this weekend :)

I'll be in touch,

Wesley

[Lubo]

Hi dear Victoria,

Lubo is here, are you willing to continue your inquiry with me?
Do you have questions for me or wishes or something I should know?

I am wondering what is the main problem of the experience called Victorias life?

Love to you,
Lubo

[Dhvictoria]

Good evening,

To Wesley: I am sorry to hear that you are having trouble as far having to withdraw from guiding, I had already created a good connexion with you! May your studies be fruitful! may you be well, Wesley!

And Hello Lubo,

Thanks for coming forth for this guiding, I hope you can guide me all the way to the breaking of the 3 first fetters; I am in this quest at the moment. Please let me know either way.

I have been guided by Wesley for near 2 months; we looked at how there is no "I" in direct experience; watching the body moves alone and in contact with other objects, and noticing that the body moves by itself, likewise smell, taste, thought arises on their own; There is no entity "in charge" there no one to control, there is nothing to control, everything flows and this person called Victoria does too.

Lately noticing feelings like anger or gratitude and asking what owns this i.e; if there is not "I", what/who is responsible for the anger and giving/receiving of gratitude?

This is where I am now, I believe. It will be good to get to know a bit about you.

I am a Buddhist Order member from the Buddhist tradition Triratna. I have been meditating for some 20 years, studying the Buddhist teachings for 4-6 and practising in a committed way for 16 years which is why I am here trying to break through my views of self, doubt, and rites and rituals. A very close friend of mine has done all the 10 fetters enquiry with Satyadhana/ Kevin Schanilec who recommends to start with LU and I hear that LU has a 10 fetters group,

I am Spanish at a time when there was a dictatorship, I fought it as a communist when I was at university for which I was prosecuted. My father was a man with great difficulties relating to other human beings in a kind way but he had a very convincing mask for the world, - at home he was frequently violent and abusive to everyone. I feel fortunate and grateful that there was something propelling me to go away, I knew there had to be something better to aspire to, and indeed my meeting Buddhism has been a shift in my life and my ways of seeing and experiencing the world including my family: with understanding and compassion. Nothing is perfect, but my present life is so much better than worse!

Now it's time to go further and break the fetters, I feel in a good space!

Many thanks

Victoria

[Dhvictoria]

An afterthought,

I am feeling a bit shaken by the fact that Wesley has to withdraw from guiding me. I feel vulnerable that this process has been interrupted, I wouldn't like to start from zero, again.

Please let me know if you can commit to guide me till the end, or not. And perhaps something about you!

Best wishes

Victoria

[Lubo]

Hi Victoria,
Thanks for the reply.

I am feeling a bit shaken by the fact that Wesley has to withdraw from guiding me

Oo, yes, I hear you. You are not alone in this. What is for you to feel this, to be shaken?

Please let me know if you can commit to guide me till the end, or not. And perhaps something about you!

I am here for you as longer you need me.
About me, you mean not personal story ,
Ok, let's see...there is no place where to land. No boundaries. Joy.
What else, I am guide almost 3 year. I like to guide through shame and guilt but only when necessary. This is your inquiry and I am just a mirror for you, to see where you are and how you are.
Fetters are just a map. Invitation is to trust the proces, the map is for the mind to be calmer, to know that everything is under control ;)
Do you want to know something more about me?

I have been guided by Wesley for near 2 months; we looked at how there is no "I" in direct experience; watching the body moves alone and in contact with other objects, and noticing that the body moves by itself, likewise smell, taste, thought arises on their own; There is no entity "in charge" there no one to control, there is nothing to control, everything flows and this person called Victoria does too.

Nice job!
and a question pops-up:

and noticing that the body moves by itself

Look around and notice - is there separate body from the whole divinity here which can move by itself?

Lately noticing feelings like anger or gratitude and asking what owns this i.e; if there is not "I", what/who is responsible for the anger and giving/receiving of gratitude?

Wonderful question and what can be found at DE (Direct Experience) ?

Love
Lubo

[Dhvictoria]

Hello Lubo,

About yourself, I feel better when I know I am relating to a human being, not some sort of answering 'robot', I mean no harm here, I would love to know more about you just to settle in humanity!

Answering your first question: there is no separate body and there is no divinity that I can see or experience. Everything is connected like water in the sea.

your second question:

Let’s see, I catch myself feeling negative feelings often enough i.e: resentment = light heat in the body and almost saying: “I” resent that person…” and then thinking: “oh! I owned this feeling that made me feel so hot and then planted it on someone else so mechanically ! how familiar this is to me even after so much work on myself and doing this enquiry”, This is a painful experience directly experienced.

That feeling has consequences affecting the person I felt resentful towards, if I don’t ‘see' it and deal with it.

Many thanks

Victoria

[Dhvictoria]

And:

To feel "shaken" is to feel the body unpleasantly tingly, muscles tight, breath short and heart beating faster. So unpleasant!

Thanks

Victoria

[Lubo]

Hi Victoria,
I am a man, 50 years old, good looking ;) , married, 2 children 15&18 years old, I live in Sofia Bulgaria.
What about you?

Next questions will allow you to go deeper to investigate what is going on.
Take your time.
resentment - notice is there an you doing it? Can be stoped befor it appear? Do you know when it will appear?

This is a painful experience directly experienced.

Yes, notice that there is an idea that this mental experience is dangerous and it is not edible ?
can it create a self ? a separation?

“oh! I owned this feeling that made me feel so hot

Can you connect with this ,it may help if you repeat the words and the notice is there a shame and guilt that there is something wrong with you?

That feeling has consequences affecting the person I felt resentful towards, if I don’t ‘see' it and deal with it.

yes. I understand what you mean. Notice is there a shame voice which is speaking here also? Notice what is this part which is shamed?

there is no separate body and there is no divinity that I can see or experience. Everything is connected like water in the sea.

Wonderful, yes the body is just a water like everything else.

Love
Lubo

[Dhvictoria]

Good Monday to you Lubo,

Thanks telling me about yourself.

1.There is no “me” making the feeling, it can’t be stopped, it arises in the body when hearing another person.

2. The idea arises afterwards, once I “felt ” my body. Interestingly, when the idea arises it also arises ‘the separation’.

3. With the separation comes the “me owning ”, and the ‘labelling’ of “shame” and yes, it is a voice.

After all this process, I volitionally breathe and relax so it doesn't hurt anyone, or myself anymore.

Best wishes

Victoria

[Lubo]

Hi dear Victoria,
Nice evening for you.

You did wonderful investigation
but why you don't use quote function?

.There is no “me” making the feeling, it can’t be stopped, it arises in the body when hearing another person.

YES. Stay here,.
yes, feeling is coming absolutely by itself - notice that if there is a person, person can chose to not make this feeling, but feeling is coming by itself, right?

and:

when the idea arises it also arises ‘the separation’.

This here is very subtle - Again, feeling is coming by ITSELF and then IDEA is coming and says - "There is you responsible for this which appears by itself, this is your guilt, shame on you" and then

With the separation comes the “me owning ”

Yes, idea that there is you responsible, makes you owner of this feeling which is coming by...how? :)

and in the end when all this game is seen, what is happening by itself is

After all this process, I volitionally breathe and relax so it doesn't hurt anyone, or myself anymore.

breathing and relaxing, no need to believe to this idea of a doer and owner of breathing and relaxing, isn't it?

Read it again and notice is there real separation if there is no owner and no one responsible for something which appears by itself?

This is ancient self protective program which is running by itself, when trigger appears the program is starting.
No need to fight with it, just don't believe shame voice about you owner and responsible for the program
and then program will be free to stop protect something which does not exist.

How you feel to read this?

Much love
Lubo