The Gate

Hi Vince

Ok, good. This tells us that it isn't intellectual. That it's rooted in trauma.Can you pull up a memory/feeling of uncertainty from the (distant) past? Not just a single incident but a reoccurring one
.

The thing I find with distant memories that possibly instilled uncertainty is this: the memory itself doesn’t always bring any feeling/sensation of doubt .The thought/ feelings of doubt can arise at any time.More of a conditioned response or even a set posture. It’s more like what you said with your second answer.

the thoughts that spawned the original doubts (about your worthiness) are lost, leaving the feeling that produces the present thoughts that produce these feelings. (ha)

This is more inline with the process I see.

We don't need to dig up the original happenings. To just know that they exist is enough. ..and to acknowledge that a child's naive perspective was inadequate to cope. ..and that an adult can recognize this and let it go.

I suppose it will be useful to accept being an adult!! I was afraid of” others” ( not animals or nature)as a child and especially terrified of adults.As the child got older her fear turned into dislike and mistrust… but this is very useful.

Thank you

love

Judi

'evening Judi,

It’s more like what you said with your second answer.

Say more about this..

I suppose it will be useful to accept being an adult!!

Ha yes. The paradox here is that once adulthood is attained we can let it go and be the bedazzled child again. (feels familiar here)

.As the child got older her fear turned into dislike and mistrust…

This could be doubt about the trustworthiness of the world. What do you think?

love

vince

Hi Vince

the thoughts that spawned the original doubts (about your worthiness) are lost, leaving the feeling that produces the present thoughts that produce these feelings. (ha)

well yes in a way… it’s like a present thought triggers the body to respond as if the current experience is a past experience .. a false reflex in a way. The sitting with what is occurring with the body is very useful as it lets the body respond without the mind attaching a story or a response to the feeling which then reveals the feeling is only sensation..

The paradox here is that once adulthood is attained we can let it go and be the bedazzled child again. (feels familiar here)

yes adulthood being face the music now … stop deflecting and the childhood being the return to innocence and wonder.

This could be doubt about the trustworthiness of the world. What do you think?

yes … trusting that openness is safe… there is no need to protect anything or hold on to anything.Openness needs no defence.

Thank you

love

Judi

Good evening Judi, It sounds like things are going pretty well for you at the moment.
Can I get a summary of what you think need investigating now?

love

vince

Hi Vince

It sounds like things are going pretty well for you at the moment.
Can I get a summary of what you think need investigating now?

There is sort of the waiting posture or belief that there is a future that “will” happen of better or worse or whatever.
I just read about the 9th fetter of restlessness and I did relate to the description of it as “a wanting to know what’s coming”

Thanks

love

Judi

Hi Judi,

“a wanting to know what’s coming”

What are the stories?
If we examine this, we find that this restlessness has foundation stories that it is built on. Assumptions.
Can you list those that occur as you contemplate what conditions are necessary to even think about future...?

vince

Hi Vince,

What are the stories?
If we examine this, we find that this restlessness has foundation stories that it is built on. Assumptions.
Can you list those that occur as you contemplate what conditions are necessary to even think about future...?

Had to sit with this for a bit.The foundation stories(a lot of them) are non verbal,when thoughts appear regarding needing to know near future events or what can also be called expectation or anticipation they are cyclical in nature,then on closer examination,they engage the feeling/sensation for a need of safety, then safety downloaded to fear,fear of survival of the body.
This fear was in the childs environment,feeling or picking up other peoples projected fears and pain .This fear and confusion may have been instilled in the child.In a sense many feelings /sensations that come up aren't even "mine" originally.The feeling/sensations were around mini "me" and not always directed at her but most likely they were directed to her as well,even if there is no concious memory of some of the experiences/stories that occurred.
I do recall events but there is no feeling attached to them when I refer to them currently,they are just stories.They may have been deemed wrong to the mind complex and hidden or numbed.
Strong safety/fear feeling/sensations arise when current thoughts(expectation) arise,but not from recalling a past experience.In other words the safety/fear feeling/sensations arise after the thought of a near future event arises.These thoughts are identified with and then ( possibly ) unexpressed or unreleased feelings/sensations from the past arise.Which the body then responds to as a signal that action or flight is required.I sit with these sensations.

I can say as a list:
A mother with paranoia,deep fear of the future,deep regrets of the past,lack of empathy for others,overwhelmed,grieving,very angry,abusive,some love at times but most of it was transactional
A father who was later diagnosed with bi-polar disorder and was very cynical and down trodden about the world.Never trust anyone was his motto.It's a dog eat dog world,he used to say.Ha ,I used to think he was saying "it's a doggie dog world" which I thought at the time sounded nice as I liked dogs.
So no need to go into all the stories as it is quite long....
So sensations in the body appear to be realeasing big time currently and I am sitting with them quite often.It's appreciated that they are appearing.

There is also attachment to certain people that brings on comfort/safety/fear.I see it and I sit with the sensations........and then the paradox thought...doership arises....This thought "One should hold boundaries,express and act on these boundries when others aren't holding or respecting ones boundries".I have heard this idea many times in some of the fetter work to do this boundary action.This feels like it contadicts the non-doer or the what is is ..the doubt seed appears.The take a thorn to remove a thorn and then throw that thorn away.. ...yes useful thought...but it feels like a belief in a contoller doer and doesn't sit right.....I do hold most pointers lightly and they are extremely useful but this boundry thing feels more like efforting or striving.Of course there are natural boundaries we don't need to think about but boundaries when interacting with certain "others"? Monitor ones responses?


Thank you!


love

Judi

Good evening Judi,

n a sense many feelings /sensations that come up aren't even "mine" originally.

Excellent insight. Yes, it's almost as if we pick it up by osmosis. The amount of projection is enormous, and made stronger with the tendency to blame...

Which the body then responds to as a signal that action or flight is required.I sit with these sensations.

Good stuff. Remember, we don't need to identify any origin happenings. Just knowing that there was something is enough, especially if it is recognized that they were conceived from a limited (infantile) perspective.

A mother with paranoia,deep fear of the future,deep regrets of the past,lack of empathy for others,overwhelmed,grieving,very angry,abusive,some love at times but most of it was transactional

We can presume significant trauma from these circumstances.

A father who was...

..and here.

So sensations in the body appear to be realeasing big time currently and I am sitting with them quite often.It's appreciated that they are appearing.

Excellent. Remember that the response to the trauma is (was) the solution. It was (maladaptively) attempting to look after you, so love it as you say goodby to it.

This thought "One should hold boundaries,express and act on these boundries when others aren't holding or respecting ones boundries".I have heard this idea many times in some of the fetter work to do this boundary action.This feels like it contadicts the non-doer or the what is is ..the doubt seed appears

Here too. Thoughts here about boundaries are that if we have issues about them then there is work to do on several fronts. (how can there be oneness if we have boundaries?)
We can look further into this if you want...

with much love

vince

Hi Vince,

Thoughts here about boundaries are that if we have issues about them then there is work to do on several fronts. (how can there be oneness if we have boundaries?)
We can look further into this if you want...

On first examination I don’t have issues with boundaries but more that I have a problem with what other people are advising about setting boundaries. Of course I have professional boundaries and the boundaries that are in society. I don’t drive on the wrong side of the road etc …I have been advised that you have to tell people what your needs are …One must know what their needs are and ask for them… that sort of stuff….I sort of see this advise as part of a process to maybe establish what one is not… but it’s one that I am reticent about.It was from some second fetter work about toxic starting points…. Maybe a possible misunderstanding…If I change the wording to being honest rather than setting boundaries , it feels more authentic……

Thanks

love

Judi

Hi Judi, yes, boundaries are conceptual. In 'real' (actual) terms we are talking about responding to uncomfortable feelings.
Some boundaries are physical (driving on the wrong side/etc) but usually, it is about feeling encroached upon.
If there is talk about some fantasy situation - well, why bother?

If I change the wording to being honest rather than setting boundaries , it feels more authentic……

Yes, absolutely.
If I do feel encroached upon, then to elicit the concept of boundaries is avoidance and missing the opportunity to see what a trigger is about.

love

vince

Hello Vince.

Still forget and go in rabbit holes but come out quicker. As long as I continue asking questions and not fall asleep before I remember...The body goes in to tremors but this is ok.I ask these questions as well and also allow.
Am I quoting this useful phrase correctly .”Thoughts are just thoughts and feelings are beliefs(thought as well but mixed with sensations.That was from the Sunday meeting

Thank you

love

Judi

Hi Judi,

Still forget and go in rabbit holes but come out quicker.

This is good. You will get better and better (especially if you laugh when you recognize what has happened)
Eventually, you will start to see that you are about to go down a rabbit hole and as it's seen it won't happen. Then fewer and fewer rabbit holes will occur.

.The body goes in to tremors but this is ok.I ask these questions as well and also allow.

Good response. It will be interesting to notice the changing intensity of the tremors.

Am I quoting this useful phrase correctly .”Thoughts are just thoughts and feelings are beliefs(thought as well but mixed with sensations

You got it. ..but words are just words. Can you see it in experience?

love

vince

Hi Vince,

You got it. ..but words are just words. Can you see it in experience?

I experience thoughts. If thoughts are a sense than the experience of thoughts should be treated the same as the other senses… senses just sensing without labels.This isn’t always the case. Mind or thought sometimes is satisfied enough with brief one word labels and yes this is still thinking there is “content” in thought…and it is still labelling ….but just labelling is much more useful than the stories ..opinions.. belief/feelings etc.etc etc.Etc!

Thank you

love

Judi

Good evening Judi,

I experience thoughts. If thoughts are a sense than the experience of thoughts should be treated the same as the other senses… senses just sensing without labels

Yes. This is really big. Now you are right on the cusp (if not already there) of seeing that the raw experiencing as a result of any sense stimulation, is a most profound experiencing. Here the most exquisite beauty is apparent. Uncorrupted, unaltered by any addition of interpretation.
This is easy to see if we take an example of intense color of say a blade of grass in the sunshine with a drop of dew...
..but it gets a little harder to see how this works when the sense is mind.
Can you be intoxicated by the wonder of where the conditioned nature of thoughts originated. Knowing that you may never know how or why it started, but wow-ed by the offering that the presence of it is.
Not engaged but discovering another piece of the complexity of this life-ing.

with love

vince

Can you be intoxicated by the wonder of where the conditioned nature of thoughts originated. Knowing that you may never know how or why it started, but wow-ed by the offering that the presence of it is.
Not engaged but discovering another piece of the complexity of this life-ing.

The engagement is a thing but so is discovery.The desire to know not how or why but more like a what.If thoughts are delusional then what is real .If feelings are delusions what is real. We know sight isn’t even what is actually present but constructs of a conditioned mind.Body sensations are real but only from the perspective of a belief that these sensations are occurring to a body.
I had an experience this morning. I tend to wake up and I am already engaged in thought,usually fear based or needing to know something based, then the false doer thoughts… I hadn’t been able to experience the gap on first awakening in the mornings or after a nap.Today I awoke in the gap and sort of saw the engaged thoughts approaching in a cluster and a sensation like a lead ball in my chest. I was glad to have this insight… then when fully awake I was in a rabbit hole but came out of it after some looking.I think surrender is the only option.Resistance is futile… just waiting to say “Uncle”. Incase you don’t have that expression where you live… it’s when someone has you in a headlock and won’t let go till you say “Uncle”. There is a peace in all this movement and the appearances of struggle… and also some sadness for the ”ghosts”.

Thank you

love

Judi