Re: Looking to see deeper
Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2023 3:13 am
Hi Rali
The thoughts about 'I' divide' sense experience, labeling the 'body' and 'world' and assuming ownership of the body. They take credit for actions performed by the body and for thinking. They create 'past' and 'future' and the idea that the 'self' is an entity existing across time. With this come many other thoughts involving anxiety, regret, fear of death, etc.
After some spiritual seeking, the illusion of a separate self can also come from a belief of being a 'witness' to whom experience is arising. This belief is like the self's 'last stand' after doing, thinking, and choosing are seen to be illusory. With investigation of actual experience, no separate witness is found, and this belief is dropped as well.
The fundamental difference from before starting this dialogue is the potential to look in direct experience at any moment and see that the 'I' does not exist. With this recognition came the end of desperate seeking. It's like the 'seeking' was transformed into 'exploration', which happens on its own.
Other than this, the difference in experience is surprisingly subtle. There are still many 'I' thoughts for now and behavior is fairly similar to before. There is more often a sense of 'flow' and enjoyment of mundane life activities like washing dishes, driving, or walking in nature. Overall there is a much greater appreciation of life.
'Things' appear to happen when thoughts label experience.
As for what makes THIS happen - that can't be answered.
There is no separate entity that is 'responsible for' anything. The idea of responsibility can still be used in a conventional sense, e.g. when talking about the 'responsibilities' I have in a job. And most of the things I believed I was 'responsible for' before realizing there is no 'I' will probably continue to be handled the same way as before, because the illusory belief in responsibility was never necessary to make them happen. For example, taking care of family, paying bills, taking care of the body, etc.
No, there is no separate entity 'self', 'me', or 'I', and there never was. These words occurred in thoughts. All kinds of thoughts were had about them. But when actual experience was checked to see what these words referred to, it became clear that they never referred to anything real. Experience happens, but not 'I'.1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
The illusion of separate self is the belief that there is a separate entity (in this case 'Paul') who can do things, think, or make decisions. The illusion starts any time there is a thought about 'I' or 'me' without noticing that is thought content. In the story of a person, the illusion starts during infancy as the infant learns their name, the word 'I', and acquires the belief that it controls the body, thinks, makes decisions, etc.2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
The thoughts about 'I' divide' sense experience, labeling the 'body' and 'world' and assuming ownership of the body. They take credit for actions performed by the body and for thinking. They create 'past' and 'future' and the idea that the 'self' is an entity existing across time. With this come many other thoughts involving anxiety, regret, fear of death, etc.
After some spiritual seeking, the illusion of a separate self can also come from a belief of being a 'witness' to whom experience is arising. This belief is like the self's 'last stand' after doing, thinking, and choosing are seen to be illusory. With investigation of actual experience, no separate witness is found, and this belief is dropped as well.
Seeing that there is no 'I' is deeply freeing. It's like a huge burden has been lifted and there is a wonderful sense of lightness.3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
The fundamental difference from before starting this dialogue is the potential to look in direct experience at any moment and see that the 'I' does not exist. With this recognition came the end of desperate seeking. It's like the 'seeking' was transformed into 'exploration', which happens on its own.
Other than this, the difference in experience is surprisingly subtle. There are still many 'I' thoughts for now and behavior is fairly similar to before. There is more often a sense of 'flow' and enjoyment of mundane life activities like washing dishes, driving, or walking in nature. Overall there is a much greater appreciation of life.
Two things happened around the same time. The first was dropping the idea that the 'shift' had to be exciting, and realizing it could just be a subtle shift in identity. The second was pondering WHO is capable of either 'identifying with' or 'disregarding' thoughts. Realizing NO ONE is doing that led to recognition.4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?
Decision, intention, free will, choice and control all come from thought. There's no entity found in actual experience that can decide, intend, or make choices. Experience happens automatically and there is nothing that controls it.5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
'Things' appear to happen when thoughts label experience.
As for what makes THIS happen - that can't be answered.
There is no separate entity that is 'responsible for' anything. The idea of responsibility can still be used in a conventional sense, e.g. when talking about the 'responsibilities' I have in a job. And most of the things I believed I was 'responsible for' before realizing there is no 'I' will probably continue to be handled the same way as before, because the illusory belief in responsibility was never necessary to make them happen. For example, taking care of family, paying bills, taking care of the body, etc.
I want to express my deepest gratitude to Rali for guiding me. And also to everyone involved with keeping LU running. I am still in awe that a site like this can exist. I would like to return here someday and try guiding.6) Anything to add?