Stop Resisting

[JonathanR]

Hello Nuss

It's good to hear that allowing the feelings to just be is helpful. Well done for trying this out.

It's interesting that this could be tried under a variety of circumstances. Yes I really know what you mean by the impulse to "accomplish things". Do let me know how you get on with this?

It doesn't matter and it certainly isn't "failure" at all if at any time it proves impossible to simply allow the anxiety to be. That could happen, though it may not. It doesn't matter. Don't worry about it. Just try it another time.

Don't forget the other possibility that once anxiety, or conflict is sllowed and noticed it may be possible to let go or relax,.


With love

Jon

[Nuss]

Hello Jon,

If the answer to letting anxious feelings just be is "yes" then also move to the next question, which is, could it simply be released?Allowed to drop or fall away? If it's a "yes" then ask if the anxiety would like to drop away or relax right now? Wait to see if there is a relaxation.

Could anxious thoughts be allowed; accepted as appearing? Could they just be?"

Don't forget the other possibility that once anxiety, or conflict is sllowed and noticed it may be possible to let go or relax,.

I have found that when it comes time to sit down with the anxiety, it tends to be a bit slippery and hard to pin down. Perhaps this connects to anxiety being rooted in stories? Mainly the anxiety about seeing through the illusion of self has become evasive. Anxieties about work tend to be more acute.

However, there’s was just a moment where some anxiety came up about a situation at school. There was a brief pause where the feelings were allowed to just be, and it felt like it “popped,” allowing it to relax.

There are many times where anxiety arises about something that may happen in the future, and that imaginary situation will play out as a thought. Sometimes I actually say or practice what I would say in that moment, allowing the stress to stew even more. That situation hasn’t even happened, yet even just the story/imagination of the event causes great stress at times. This thought pattern has been habitual since I was a young child.

The feeling that popped was one of these imaginations. I thought it would be of interest to share the pattern.

Talk to you soon,
Nuss

[JonathanR]

Hi Nuss

. There are many times where anxiety arises about something that may happen in the future, and that imaginary situation will play out as a thought. Sometimes I actually say or practice what I would say in that moment, allowing the stress to stew even more. That situation hasn’t even happened, yet even just the story/imagination of the event causes great stress at times. This thought pattern has been habitual since I was a young child.

Yes. Understood.

Is it clear that belief in "a future" for a "myself" is what has been going on here?

What you describe is a belief/ assumption that is not at all uncommon . The notion of a "me" that appears to be some thing that is fixed and unchanging, and is then imaginitively mapped onto an imagined future?
Something or somebody then appears to be subject to threatening circumstance. Scenarios are imagined to await a character from a story, and because it is not recognised as fiction or speculation,anxiety appears.

All it takes is a momentary seeing that the character was never more than a story about a character. From then on, identification with an imagined self can still happen but the 'baseline' (if you like) is that this is increasingly noticed to be a narrative ABOUT suffering.

It's my duty to point out that excessively anxious rumination about 'self' can sometimes indicate the need for some effective therepeutic work and not just self-inquiry. There's no judgment either for or against this idea Nuss, but sometimes people try to "transcend" illness or anxiety via spiritual inquiry , in an effort to make it go away, when another approach might be good.

. Perhaps this connects to anxiety being rooted in stories? Mainly the anxiety about seeing through the illusion of self has become evasive.

This could easily be due to the very real risk of success in "seeing".

. However, there’s was just a moment where some anxiety came up about a situation at school. There was a brief pause where the feelings were allowed to just be, and it felt like it “popped,” allowing it to relax.

That doesn't have to happen many times before "self" pops and doesn't really stick back together again.

Love

Jon

[Nuss]

Hello Jon,

It's my duty to point out that excessively anxious rumination about 'self' can sometimes indicate the need for some effective therepeutic work and not just self-inquiry. There's no judgment either for or against this idea Nuss, but sometimes people try to "transcend" illness or anxiety via spiritual inquiry , in an effort to make it go away, when another approach might be good.

Duly noted. Thank you, Jon.

That doesn't have to happen many times before "self" pops and doesn't really stick back together again.

Since that "popping," feelings of anxiety have seemed smaller-or perhaps, more "true to size." I cannot say if that is because of the popping or particular conditions of the past week.

I was rear-ended by another car on my way to a morning meditation sitting. Sadly, the driver quickly left the scene, leaving me with some new marks on my bumper and a louder muffler. It was easy to give into the self in that moment.

"They hit ME," "They damaged MY car," "this will likely affect MY insurance rates."

After the sitting, it was easier to examine all of the thoughts in reaction to the accident. All of these contained a common denominator: "me"

Is it clear that belief in "a future" for a "myself" is what has been going on here?

What you describe is a belief/ assumption that is not at all uncommon . The notion of a "me" that appears to be some thing that is fixed and unchanging, and is then imaginitively mapped onto an imagined future?

Something or somebody then appears to be subject to threatening circumstance. Scenarios are imagined to await a character from a story, and because it is not recognised as fiction or speculation,anxiety appears.

All it takes is a momentary seeing that the character was never more than a story about a character. From then on, identification with an imagined self can still happen but the 'baseline' (if you like) is that this is increasingly noticed to be a narrative ABOUT suffering.

Yes, it is quite clear that this anxiety (and much of what I would label "my anxiety" as) is based off of a false belief of a "future" for a "myself." When the question is asked: "Why is there stress?" the answer usually involves how the situation in thought will affect "me," much like the thoughts mentioned above about the car accident.

Suffering is also there as a baseline, an aversion to something in the so-called "future." Something which might be uncomfortable, cause of loss in some way; time, money, possessions, opportunities, etc.

Just an idea but have you ever tried noticing the flow of thoughts, how one thought seems to occupy attention at a time? Then follows another, and others after that? Each thought seems to vanish as it is replaced by the next.

See if it is possible to notice any kind of space or gap where the current thought has waned but the next one hasn't yet appeared? If that seems possible remain aware of the space or gap . What happens?

I'd like to add an extension to my previous findings on this question. It seems as if between each thought there is a space, a moment of silence, nothingness, seeing the thought as a thought, perhaps even sensations which accompany it as well. Quickly followed by that space are more thoughts related to the previous thought.


With gratitude,
Nuss

[JonathanR]

Hello Nuss

. I was rear-ended by another car on my way to a morning meditation sitting. Sadly, the driver quickly left the scene, leaving me with some new marks on my bumper and a louder muffler. It was easy to give into the self in that moment.

God how annoying.

.
"They hit ME," "They damaged MY car," "this will likely affect MY insurance rates."

After the sitting, it was easier to examine all of the thoughts in reaction to the accident. All of these contained a common denominator: "me"

Right. Yes. Now,. It's possible in the heat of the moment for there to be a belief or interpretation that "this means that there must be a real self somewhere, somehow, otherwise what is all the indignation appearing for?" This can link to the idea that "I haven't seen no self" or simply "there's still a problem".

But I'm guessing (from what you've said is the case), that the interesting thing was that this series of mental "Me" protests was seen? This is noticing the illusion of 'self' , how it appears, how it can seem convincing.

Perhaps there were "strong" sensations too that accompanied these thoughts? For example, tension in the face area, or a sudden surge of energy experienced? It can be noticed that such sensations seem to arrive with the "Me" thoughts and to "bolster" the idea of 'self'.

. I'd like to add an extension to my previous findings on this question. It seems as if between each thought there is a space, a moment of silence, nothingness, seeing the thought as a thought, perhaps even sensations which accompany it as well. Quickly followed by that space are more thoughts related to the previous thought.

Very nice. Almost like the space between each heart beat or between each breath?

In that space or silence is there an experiencer experiencing ?


Love

Jon

[Nuss]

Hello Jon,

Right. Yes. Now,. It's possible in the heat of the moment for there to be a belief or interpretation that "this means that there must be a real self somewhere, somehow, otherwise what is all the indignation appearing for?" This can link to the idea that "I haven't seen no self" or simply "there's still a problem".

Correct. Those thoughts occur rather regularly; "I haven't seen no-self." That is a very common thought-pattern to occur for "myself." Through experiences in music school, negative thoughts about one's musical abilities (or lack thereof) and time spent/dedication to practicing is quite normal.

But I'm guessing (from what you've said is the case), that the interesting thing was that this series of mental "Me" protests was seen? This is noticing the illusion of 'self' , how it appears, how it can seem convincing.

Yes, it was noticed that thoughts were grasping onto this sense of "me" who has been wronged. It seemed especially convincing since they were about an event that had just happened, as opposed to a potential future event.

Perhaps there were "strong" sensations too that accompanied these thoughts? For example, tension in the face area, or a sudden surge of energy experienced? It can be noticed that such sensations seem to arrive with the "Me" thoughts and to "bolster" the idea of 'self'.

Yes! My face was very warm, accompanied by a tingling sensation. These physical effects bolstered this illusion.

Very nice. Almost like the space between each heart beat or between each breath?
In that space or silence is there an experiencer experiencing ?

Absolutely. No, there is no experiencer experiencing. Sometimes there are thoughts about "experience" or "pure seeing/hearing/etc." However, it was seen that in true "pure" experience, there cannot be thoughts of experience. For example, thinking about seeing as just seeing (or trying to) as opposed to simply seeing.

Take care,
Nuss

[JonathanR]

Hello Nuss,

It isn't really working for us to exchange once a week.

I know that I said something like 'take your time' with responding to my posts and you warned me that you are busy. However it is true that most of the successful conversations I have been involved with were where both guide and client exchanged posts daily, or nearly every day. This is just fact.

Wherever I've guided someone who began to.regularly take three, four, five days, or a week at a time to respond, the conversation usually felt like a beach-ball that was never quite inflated and there tended to be no clear shift.

It is necessary for more regular , preferably daily exchanges. With such long waits there is far too much time for intellectualising to happen and not for not actually engaging.

Please let me know if you can find the time to post at least every two days? If you can manage that I can continue to work with you. Otherwise I would really like to be free to offer to guide others, which, at present, I'm reluctant to do.

Love

Jon

[Nuss]

Jon,

I will commit to sending within 48 hours.

The problem is I don't always make time for myself. I was just talking with a couple friends about this. I allow thoughts of inadequacy and striving into putting too many responsibilities on my plate or working extra hours to complete various projects. Then, there isn't enough time to make a proper meal, take care of household needs, and give myself space to take care of this body physically and mentally.

Thank you for your honesty, along with your continued patience and persistence. I will not waste your time anymore.

Talk to you soon,
Nuss

[Nuss]

*Wording correction:

I will commit to sending replies within 48 hours.

[JonathanR]

Hi Nuss


Thank you so much for your reply.

. The problem is I don't always make time for myself. I was just talking with a couple friends about this. I allow thoughts of inadequacy and striving into putting too many responsibilities on my plate or working extra hours to complete various projects. Then, there isn't enough time to make a proper meal, take care of household needs, and give myself space to take care of this body physically and mentally.

Thank you for your honesty, along with your continued patience and persistence. I will not waste your time anymore.

You have never wasted my time Nuss. And I do appreciate that you are busy. But I think that more regular engagement could help.

Sometimes there can be thoughts about "not having done enough inquiry or not having had any opportunity for inquiry , or that inquiry hasn't been of "good enough" quality." Do you recognise this pattern of thinking?

Such thoughts tend to slow things down and themselves need investigating, as they tend to be part of assumed self.

Actually any form of experience, challenging, "unspiritual", rushed, anxious or whatever is manure for self inquiry. It may seem more difficult to look for "self" under these circumstances but all of experience presents an opportunity for liberation.


Speak soon :-)

Jon

[Nuss]

Hello Jon,

Most definitely. It was something I needed to hear! (or read, I suppose)

Sometimes there can be thoughts about "not having done enough inquiry or not having had any opportunity for inquiry , or that inquiry hasn't been of "good enough" quality." Do you recognise this pattern of thinking?

Most definitely. These are thoughts which happened even when I began meditating. There was a focus on the "quality" of meditations, which seemed to have an effect on my mood for that day. These are very common thoughts for me, either with the specific context you mentioned, or others.

An example in a different context: not having done enough planning for lessons, not having opportunities to prepare/complete things, or lessons not being "good enough" quality.

The sense of anxiety in those thoughts comes from an identification with inadequacy. "I am not good enough," "I am one who doesn't have enough time," "I am unprepared," etc. They are all based on "I am." All can be opportunities to further identify with the assumed self and attach it to various characteristics.

Such thoughts tend to slow things down and themselves need investigating, as they tend to be part of assumed self.

Actually any form of experience, challenging, "unspiritual", rushed, anxious or whatever is manure for self inquiry. It may seem more difficult to look for "self" under these circumstances but all of experience presents an opportunity for liberation.

I will sit with the questions you listed above and investigate for an assumed self within them.

Talk to you soon,
Nuss

[JonathanR]

Hello Nuss

I had written to you and , I thought, posted the reply here but it seems that I lost it. Never mind.


What I was writing was about these thoughts of "inadequate inquiry" or "inadequate effort", as if there's someone that has to judge and decide what constitutes "proper inquiry".

Just notice thoughts like this. If they appear they do not have to be believed. Don't let them prevent you from posting.


Anxiety. Notice that. What IS it really? An energetic sensation? A thought? A tension of some sort? See if you can trace the sensation-thought 'anxiety' to some origin, to an owner or victim. Where is that one?



Love,

Jon

[Nuss]

Hey Jon,

Anxiety. Notice that. What IS it really? An energetic sensation? A thought? A tension of some sort? See if you can trace the sensation-thought 'anxiety' to some origin, to an owner or victim. Where is that one?

Anxiety manifests as a string of thoughts, usually with more frequency than during un-stressed times. It also manifests in slight pressure in the forehead, tired eyes, perhaps some tingling or pressure in the chest. These thoughts are stories which are usually about what has happened to "me" in the past or future. The owner or victim from this anxiety is always this me in the past or future. It is not something happening in the moment (except as a thought).

Also there seems to be a lack of presence in the now. Sometimes feeling like I’m driving in the middle of the road and cars are passing by on the right and left. There is much less seeing things as they are and mostly mental impressions.


Talk to you soon,
Nuss

[JonathanR]

Hi Nuss

What clear descriptions of the sensations and thoughts that can be noticed in relation to "anxiety". Thank you.

A guide, direct-pointing, might well ask "what is or where is the "self" that is imagined to be experiencing all this?

And I bet you are familiar with that kind of question?

For many, it is clearly not possible to find an entity...but then it would seem, in spite of that, it
is thought that "nothing changes".

Do you see how that thought is like focusing on an expectation? No self is not an experience. It is more like what's actually happening, whether that is seen or not.

Holding to any sort of expectation can it's self seem stressful. It can be very therepeutic to notice that this has been a tendency in thinking and to see that it can be relaxing to let that go.

What do you think of what I've said here?

Jon

[Nuss]

Hello Jon,

For many, it is clearly not possible to find an entity...but then it would seem, in spite of that, it is thought that "nothing changes".

Correct. Or there are recurring thoughts inquiring about the true clarity of that moment: "how clear was that moment?" "did/when did mental impressions or reactionary thoughts happen?" "Are things really being seen for what they really are?"

Do you see how that thought is like focusing on an expectation? No self is not an experience. It is more like what's actually happening, whether that is seen or not.

Absolutely-either based on past experiences of clarity or what has been read to generate expectations for what "should be."

Holding to any sort of expectation can it's self seem stressful. It can be very therapeutic to notice that this has been a tendency in thinking and to see that it can be relaxing to let that go.
What do you think of what I've said here?

I would agree that expectations have been present since the beginning of my meditation journey. Like everything else, they simply must be seen for what they are (and perhaps also let go if possible-as you have advised me). It would be easy to slide into another mental pattern of "I shouldn't be having expectations" or "I need to stop having having expectations." However, that will only further tie the knot.

I have also noticed quite recently expectations held for other experiences or encounters throughout the day. Thoughts are starting (slowly) to seem more distant or "separate." This is certainly more easily noticed during non-work hours, especially weekends/holidays, away from the chaos of the work day. I hesitated to use the word "separate," as that could also lead down the road of labeling things as "not me," therefore establishing a "me" in the process. Perhaps another way to explain it is that thoughts are seeming more similar to other experiences such as sights, sounds, smells, etc. Arising and passing by, no me to create, control, or own them.

Expectations arise about simple daily things-interacting with people, tasting food, exploring the city in which I live-these are ones that were noticed most recently. These expectations arise, however they do not need to be bought into or held onto. They arise for a variety of reasons, all of which are out of one's control. I suppose what it comes back to is what you've always said-see it for what it is, and don't buy into thoughts about why it is and if it "should" or "should not" be.

Talk to you soon,
Nuss