Seeing that Frees

[Mamaki]

and life seems exactly how its always been.

Say more on this..

Yesterday there was less awareness of experience and more ordinary thoughts about me being good at my job, feeling proud and satisfied and later in my buddhist group thoughts of wanting to say the right thing and not mention anything too controversial about this dialogue like stuff about free will and control!

However the context of this dialogue is ever present in thought. Feelings of owning this process - its 'my' liberation that will make me feel better about myself, more attained! And that feeling is threatened by other spiritual friends who are finding liberation in other ways! Story upon story upon story. Wanting to be free of that story.

Last night dreamt of a friend who passed through the gateless gate in 2015. Dont remember details. So something seems to be registering on that dream level about this process.
As I write all this a sense that I'm kind of making it all up. I am telling a story. If I were to rewrite it later it would be different.

I don't really know why I said 'life seems exactly as its always been'
I recognise ways in which it's also different. I've been more assertive at work and with my partner and seeking present experience more naturally later in the day.
Ugh!

Yours in search of the truthless truth

Love mamaki

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Mamaki,

that feeling is threatened by other spiritual friends

Ah yes. Sadly this is common. Not only will the Mamaki organism seek survival in stasis, but others will pressure for a continuation of the familiar.
It is not done knowingly. It's just a normal thing that others that like you don't want you to change.
Any culture has rules. Norms that are enforced by peer group pressure. Every cult(ure) has a survival mechanism that insists on conformity. Question the status quo and you will be threatened with being sent to Coventry. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Send_to_Coventry

not mention anything too controversial about this dialogue like stuff about free will and control!

Yes, it's probably best to keep this stuff to yourself.
In the early days of waking up it is common to want to save the world. Compassion can hurt when it is seen that others self induce suffering. ..but it gets easier. i have friends that have no idea that i see the world entirely differently to them. i meet them where they are comfortable. Those who know about my worldview (my wife & kids, and a very few friends) think that I am mad, but this is ok as it comes with acceptance.

and more ordinary thoughts about me being good at my job, feeling proud and satisfied

What was the response to this when it was seen to be happening?

Feelings of owning this process - its 'my' liberation that will make me feel better about myself, more attained!

Say more about this..

I've been more assertive at work and with my partner and seeking present experience more naturally later in the day.

Where has this originated?

Ugh!

What is the story behind this?

with love & compassion

vince

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Mamaki,

that feeling is threatened by other spiritual friends

Ah yes. Sadly this is common. Not only will the Mamaki organism seek survival in stasis, but others will pressure for a continuation of the familiar.
It is not done knowingly. It's just a normal thing that others that like you don't want you to change.
Any culture has rules. Norms that are enforced by peer group pressure. Every cult(ure) has a survival mechanism that insists on conformity. Question the status quo and you will be threatened with being sent to Coventry. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Send_to_Coventry

not mention anything too controversial about this dialogue like stuff about free will and control!

Yes, it's probably best to keep this stuff to yourself.
In the early days of waking up it is common to want to save the world. Compassion can hurt when it is seen that others self induce suffering. ..but it gets easier. i have friends that have no idea that i see the world entirely differently to them. i meet them where they are comfortable. Those who know about my worldview (my wife & kids, and a very few friends) think that I am mad, but this is ok as it comes with acceptance.

and more ordinary thoughts about me being good at my job, feeling proud and satisfied

What was the response to this when it was seen to be happening?

Feelings of owning this process - its 'my' liberation that will make me feel better about myself, more attained!

Say more about this..

I've been more assertive at work and with my partner and seeking present experience more naturally later in the day.

Where has this originated?

Ugh!

What is the story behind this?

with love & compassion

vince

[Mamaki]

Good morning vince

that feeling is threatened by other spiritual friends

Ah yes. Sadly this is common. Not only will the Mamaki organism seek survival in stasis, but others will pressure for a continuation of the familiar.

Yes there has been a bit of a longing to return to the life i have been having. it was going so well!
apart from one friend all my other friends and even my partner have been encouraging about this LU process.

It is not done knowingly. It's just a normal thing that others that like you don't want you to change.

my partner does acccuse me of being a bit one track minded and silent at times but im not too phased by that.

Any culture has rules. Norms that are enforced by peer group pressure. Every cult(ure) has a survival mechanism that insists on conformity.

i know what you mean though i have received a lot of open mindedness and support from the order i am part of. there is a strong culture of personal freedom and friendship. the understanding that we will all grow and change and will have to adapt to one another. i feel very fortunate to have this culture. there are a good bunch of people who have been through the gateless gate with LU so people can see its value. it even prompted some of those people to set up a similar enquiry within the order. i have felt a bit of perceived pressure to choose the order method over LU but today talking with order friends about this LU process (no details) just felt so much encouragement. my closest order friends' husband did it in 2015.

Question the status quo and you will be threatened with being sent to Coventry. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Send_to_Coventry

None of this resonates with my experience I'm glad to say

not mention anything too controversial about this dialogue like stuff about free will and control!

Yes, it's probably best to keep this stuff to yourself.

Interestingly there's been a breakthrough in physics about there being no such thing as free will and my buddhist chapter mentioned this as a topic for exploration as they knew I was looking at this kind of thing! So this coming week we will be doing that! Feel free not to say much if don't have the words and will encourage others to come from experience rather than opinion.

In the early days of waking up it is common to want to save the world. Compassion can hurt when it is seen that others self induce suffering. ..but it gets easier. i have friends that have no idea that i see the world entirely differently to them. i meet them where they are comfortable. Those who know about my worldview (my wife & kids, and a very few friends) think that I am mad, but this is ok as it comes with acceptance.

This is so interesting to read vince. Thanks for sharing. Yes, I can see that I won't even go there with a lot of people.

and more ordinary thoughts about me being good at my job, feeling proud and satisfied

What was the response to this when it was seen to be happening?

It was not taken very seriously but seen as a habitual selfing going on. Later today I realised nevertheless how healing its been to have a positive story and feelings about Mamaki to offset the negative story. There was pleasure that the job was done well, that there was skill happening.

Feelings of owning this process - its 'my' liberation that will make me feel better about myself, more attained!

Say more about this..

My' liberation/'my' attainment is a bit about self esteem strangely! Its about being special and different. Mamaki has had different chapters in her life story where each time an alternative path was taken from the norm, different from peers. Identity was about being different and special.
'Choosing ' difference meant no comparison and no competition. And this still continues with this process.
Current conversations with friends about non-duality and no self make Mamaki feel threatened as others can sound like they may already have what she is trying to attain!

I've been more assertive at work and with my partner and seeking present experience more naturally later in the day.

Where has this originated?

Sorry vince I don't understand the question

Ugh!

What is the story behind this?

This is a story of exasperation over the tangle it feels for mamaki. Confused thoughts. First a story about nothings changed, then a shift in emphasis and looking for what may have changed then seeing what has changed. Then wondering if it was all being made up! The story was also one of how confusion shouldn't be happening. Clarity is surely the goal the story says?!

with love & gratitude

mamaki

[vinceschubert]

Good morning Mamaki,

apart from one friend

Have compassion for that friend. They are probably feeling threatened. Almost certainly it is a fear response.

all my other friends and even my partner have been encouraging about this LU process.

That is excellent. Especially if you can talk about it without judgement from them. It would be good if the intention arises to respond to any thoughts or words about this experiencing, with a further dive into a deeper acceptance of THIS. A greater recognition that anything (everything) that life offers is an opportunity. That as it's already in the past by the time it is seen, that it can't be changed anyway, so a welcoming surrender is the least corrupting way to approach it.

i feel very fortunate to have this culture. there are a good bunch of people who have been through the gateless gate with LU so people can see its value.

Ah, this is excellent. Do remember though, that experience is unique to each organism. Yours won't be the same as any other.

there being no such thing as free will and my buddhist chapter mentioned this as a topic for exploration as they knew I was looking at this kind of thing! So this coming week we will be doing that!

The thing to watch is that any notion of free will comes from thought conclusions. When description of experiencing happens, it doesn't exist.
Notice if this is accurate when others talk about it.

There was pleasure that the job was done well, that there was skill happening.

Yes, of course pleasure (and pain) will still exist. It's just that the pleasure no longer comes from ego enhancement.
Now when i hit a good shot at golf, i no longer say "i'm good", but rather acknowledge the mystery by saying "that was good luck."

what she is trying to attain!

Mamaki can't attain anything. Any effort to attain corrupts THIS. It adds the judgement of success or failure to what IS.
It will happen (or not) and the actual reason will remain a mystery. (if there is such a thing)

I've been more assertive at work and with my partner and seeking present experience more naturally later in the day.

Where has this originated?

Sorry vince I don't understand the question

What was behind the assertivness? Was there intent? Did it come from being more relaxed and confident in your stance?

This is a story of exasperation over the tangle it feels for mamaki. Confused thoughts. First a story about nothings changed, then a shift in emphasis and looking for what may have changed then seeing what has changed. Then wondering if it was all being made up! The story was also one of how confusion shouldn't be happening. Clarity is surely the goal the story says?!

The mind is incredibly creative and compelling with the stories it invents. Compelling in that it ties them with feelings and circumstances to give them validity. ..but they are still stories. Is any story to be believed to be anything other than a story. Wonder and awe at the amazing ability of mind is how i see some stories.

with love

vince

[Mamaki]

Good day vince,

Have compassion for that friend. They are probably feeling threatened. Almost certainly it is a fear response.

Thankyou, yes thats the kindest response.

all my other friends and even my partner have been encouraging about this LU process.

That is excellent. Especially if you can talk about it without judgement from them.

Yes, it does feel free of judgement its more that its difficult to explain. As you said previously, theres a necessity to meet people where they are comfortable.

It would be good if the intention arises to respond to any thoughts or words about this experiencing, with a further dive into a deeper acceptance of THIS.

So meeting them with a dive into THIS...is this a shifting of refuge...from the world of story to the world of experiencing?

A greater recognition that anything (everything) that life offers is an opportunity.

An opportunity for what im wondering?! I can see it as an openness to a creative unfolding Or is it openness to seeing more deeply? All thoughts, sorry! But in experience openness to opportunity is natural, its is just thoughts which attempt to control what comes next.

That as it's already in the past by the time it is seen, that it can't be changed anyway, so a welcoming surrender is the least corrupting way to approach it.

this seems to be happening. not pushing the river so much. less planning.

Do remember though, that experience is unique to each organism. Yours won't be the same as any other.

so important to remember this...

The thing to watch is that any notion of free will comes from thought conclusions. When description of experiencing happens, it doesn't exist.

yes, can see this in experience. it was written about in an earlier post. Thoughts can get hot and bothered about this issue, outraged even but experience is very light and easy about it. free will is not true in experience.

Notice if this is accurate when others talk about it.

This is very helpful and seems like it would be good to do when i explore it with my chapter. so pleased to have this guidance to take with me. i have low expectations from the exploration but also feel open to what might arise as we attempt to connect through it in experience

Mamaki can't attain anything. Any effort to attain corrupts THIS. It adds the judgement of success or failure to what IS.
It will happen (or not) and the actual reason will remain a mystery. (if there is such a thing)

this makes sense, yes

I've been more assertive at work and with my partner and seeking present experience more naturally later in the day.

What was behind the assertivness?

Hard to say. I can only come up with stories about that. Like maybe feeling less attached to self identity and therefore less to lose in being natural. It seems there was no intention, decision or plan in any way I was aware of. It just happened.

Was there intent?

No, though perhaps some augmentation of a recognised finding that these assertive/ less reactive behaviours have been more present since starting this dialogue. But that is pure conjecture - total story!

Did it come from being more relaxed and confident in your stance?

It feels very likely though I can't be sure. Like I say 'I' just surprised 'myself' when it happened and put it down to a welcome effect of this process!

The mind is incredibly creative and compelling with the stories it invents. Compelling in that it ties them with feelings and circumstances to give them validity. ..but they are still stories. Is any story to be believed to be anything other than a story.

it would seem not, ,though as you have said previously some stories are more accurate than other, but they are still abstractions from experience however much they enhance that experience. Seeing them for what they are as stories seems to free experience up...

Wonder and awe at the amazing ability of mind is how i see some stories.

I'm recognizing stories more and more in everything i think about stuff and yes some are so sophisticated or creative or amazingly far out! Lovely that you see them with awe and wonder. I am finding them a bit annoying presently because a view prevails that the better refuge and the goal of this dialogue is in THIS and not the stories!
Is confusion a distraction tactic or an inevitable part of the process of not believing thought stories so much?!!!

with love and appreciation

mamaki

[vinceschubert]

Good morning Mamaki,

So meeting them with a dive into THIS...

i was meaning to meet what arises in you from the interactions.

is this a shifting of refuge...

i am curious about your use of "refuge". It has arisen a couple of times.
It seems a dualistic notion of you and somewhere that is protective. Can you elaborate please?

An opportunity for what im wondering?!

An opportunity is open arms. The invitation is to anything and everything. Expectations reduce the invitation.

It is just thoughts that attempt to control what comes next.

Absolutely. So are we inviting shitty things in if they are present?

i have low expectations from the exploration but also feel open to what might arise

i take this to mean "expect low but hope for more." Both of these will leave you measuring and comparing what arises. Can you be fully with what happens while busy with this?
That doesn't mean DO anything about expectations. (you can't anyway) but you can see it as a limiting story and laugh at it.

put it down to a welcome effect of this process!

Story here is that as we become less invested in identifying with (anything) that we lose a lot of (ha) self-consciousness. We drop filters.
i know that i am quicker to tears of joy or sadness. To frustration and anger (although they usually only last second now) Also what arises is more intense. i am not preoccupied with stories about how others might see me from an ego perspective. (i am if considering communication effectiveness)

I am finding them a bit annoying presently because a view prevails that the better refuge and the goal of this dialogue is in THIS and not the stories!

Haha, you are never going to be free of stories. i can report that my thoughts and me are friends now.

with love

vince

[Mamaki]

Hello dear vince

So meeting them with a dive into THIS...

i was meaning to meet what arises in you from the interactions.

This has been happening

i am curious about your use of "refuge". It has arisen a couple of times.
It seems a dualistic notion of you and somewhere that is protective. Can you elaborate please?

OK, yes it's Buddhist language really but yes it is the case that I'm 'trying' to 'choose' the best place to focus my awareness. The place that leads to the end of suffering. The place that is real or actual and therefore a true refuge.
Help! Obviously I am pursuing this dialogue because I think or I sense there's something missing in my general way of being. Something being overlooked. THIS seems to be the place to arrive! Thought stories are coming into awareness more easily and being 'held' more lightly. Seen more for the stories they are...but there is still a strong seeking story still asking what I need to be doing to 'get' this!

An opportunity for what im wondering?!

An opportunity is open arms. The invitation is to anything and everything. Expectations reduce the invitation.

This really resonates. Expectations are being seen more for what they are - as just that.

It is just thoughts that attempt to control what comes next.

are we inviting shitty things in if they are present?

Yes, in 'theory' definitely! allowing everything! In experience often NO! Resistance to discomfort. A bit of comfort eating or similar.

i have low expectations from te exploration but also feel open to what might arise

i take this to mean "expect low but hope for more." Both of these will leave you measuring and comparing what arises. Can you be fully with what happens while busy with this?

Probably not. It's possible there may be a lot of back and forth between judgement and THIS. Of course that's a very dualistic way of seeing it and also I can't predict how it will go.

That doesn't mean DO anything about expectations. (you can't anyway) but you can see it as a limiting story and laugh at it.

Love this!

put it down to a welcome effect of this process!

Story here is that as we become less invested in identifying with (anything) that we lose a lot of (ha) self-consciousness. We drop filters.

Love the (ha) self-consciousness bit. wish I understood the joke!

i know that i am quicker to tears of joy or sadness. To frustration and anger (although they usually only last second now) Also what arises is more intense.

Very interesting. ive already got a story about why that might be!

i am not preoccupied with stories about how others might see me from an ego perspective. (i am if considering communication effectiveness)

This is so interesting, i so want to be less preoccupied with stories about others and how they see me. one of the reasons for doing this dialogue.

Haha, you are never going to be free of stories. i can report that my thoughts and me are friends now.

Wonderful, yes i want this too!

love and appreciation

mamaki

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Mamaki,

it is the case that I'm 'trying' to 'choose' the best place to focus my awareness. The place that leads to the end of suffering.

the end of suffering it when you don't try to do anything.
Trying is like choice. It is pushing the river.
Doing happens. The illusion that Mamaki is the controller of the doing, is a thought story. The story of ownership. A story of posessiveness. A story of meaning, of purpose. Responsibility. A story of success or failure.
Now you add one more thing to the list of stories that are associated with Mamaki trying to DO something...

I think or I sense there's something missing in my general way of being.

Instead of missing, think of it being hidden. Covered up.
What you are discovering was there all along.
It was just encompassed by stories. ..and the validating experiential responses to them.

Love the (ha) self-consciousness bit. wish I understood the joke!

The joke is how can you be self-conscious when there is no self?

ive already got a story about why that might be!

Well... what is it?

i so want to be less preoccupied with stories about others and how they see me.

Somebodies opinion of you is none of your business.
Turn it around.. Your opinion of another is your unique perspective, your filtered judgement. It speaks of you, not them.
It is impossible for you to imagine something that isn't part of your experience. Every other is a projection by your brain.
Like a dream character, entirely constructed from your own personal library of experiences and circumstances.
So, others opinion of you, is your projected interpretation of their unique perspective of you.
How should you respond to another opinion of you?

with love

vince

[Mamaki]

Hello again dear vince

Lost my first draft!

the end of suffering is when you don't try to do anything.

Sounds great!  Just accepting everything that is happening...open to all that life brings and knowing that the mamaki organism (in its lifetime of experience) will respond accordingly without a doer.

Trying is like choice. It is pushing the river.

Yes, it's volition, a kind of forcing...

Doing happens. The illusion that Mamaki is the controller of the doing, is a thought story. The story of ownership. A story of posessiveness.

Yes doing does happen but I am not doing it. Lots of stories about what's mine but they are not lasting long as seen through and so not experiencing them so strongly presently

A story of meaning, of purpose.

Ooh I like meaning and purpose. Losing meaning seems akin to depression...and there's strong aversion to going there...

Responsibility. A story of success or failure.

Very strong story for mamaki. Not ambitious in career sense but am in spiritual sense. Progress not perfection resonates as well as a focus on the process more than results. But still very fearful of failure. All stories about trying!

Now you add one more thing to the list of stories that are associated with Mamaki trying to DO something...

Teehee, what am I like!

I think or I sense there's something missing in my general way of being.

Instead of missing, think of it being hidden. Covered up. What you are discovering was there all along. It was just encompassed by stories. ..and the validating experiential responses to them.

Yes, uncovering what has always been here...open to this possibility but not experiencing yet

The joke is how can you be self-conscious when there is no self?

Yes funny and a crazy notion!

i know that i am quicker to tears of joy or sadness. To frustration and anger (although they usually only last second now) Also what arises is more intense

ive already got a story about why that might be!

Well... what is it?

Quicker to a range of emotions because accepting everything and less thoughts in the way. They move on quickly because there is no story of self to pin them to. They are more intense because they are experienced fully without distracting thought stories.

i so want to be less preoccupied with stories about others and how they see me.

Somebodies opinion of you is none of your business.

Absolutely! I've remembered this on occasions as a positive antidote to obsessive worry about others opinions about me.

Turn it around.. Your opinion of another is your unique perspective, your filtered judgement. It speaks of you, not them.

Yup, it's about me not them

It is impossible for you to imagine something that isn't part of your experience.

Mmm maybe

Like a dream character, entirely constructed from your own personal library of experiences and circumstances.

Yes projection makes sense

So, others opinion of you, is your projected interpretation of their unique perspective of you.

Looked at like this it's so convoluted and removed from actual experience.

How should you respond to another opinion of you?

Shift the focus to what's happening here. With the mamaki organism. Impossible to know what is going on over there.

Thanks so much vince for your skill and generosity

Love mamaki

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Mamaki,

Lost my first draft!

Ah yes. That happens sometimes. When it happens to me, I take it as an opportunity to 'let it flow' again & wonder how differently it will come out.

the end of suffering is when you don't try to do anything.

Suffering is the bit where emotional pain is added to the original injury by responding to stories about imagined scenarios.
i believe that Buddha said that desire was the beginning of suffering.
Well, wanting anything to be different than it is, that's desire.
Having shoulds/shouldn'ts (judgments) that's certainly adding stories to circumstances.

Just accepting everything that is happening...

"accepting" is insufficient. Better it be a welcome invite to that which can't be changed. (which is everything that is noticed)

and knowing that the mamaki organism (in its lifetime of experience) will respond accordingly without a doer.

This is a trusting. When it is seen that a doer is not required, it develops.

Lots of stories about what's mine

They will fade as you keep running into the ownership issue. (until you don't)

Losing meaning seems akin to depression...

Oh wow! Gee, losing meaning here was a declaration of freedom. It heralded that I didn't have to follow blindly a path of conformity.
It was an acknowledgement of the great mystery. A celebration of discovery and surprise.
It also freed me from having to even think about some of the more bizarre stories about meaning that seemingly rational people actively promoted.

But still very fearful of failure.

An even more confining story than meaning. Is it possible to get out of that one without PTSD?

Quicker to a range of emotions because accepting everything and less thoughts in the way. They move on quickly because there is no story of self to pin them to. They are more intense because they are experienced fully without distracting thought stories.

Yes. Good description.

It is impossible for you to imagine something that isn't part of your experience.

Mmm maybe

Oh, so you aren't sure on this one?

Looked at like this it's so convoluted and removed from actual experience.

..and what is that?

Impossible to know what is going on over there.

Absolutely! Not even possible to know what's going on over here either. It's all a mystery, and what a relief that is.

with love

vince

[Mamaki]

Good evening Mamaki,

Lost my first draft!

I take it as an opportunity to 'let it flow' again & wonder how differently it will come out.

Yes, that happened here and of course what was written second time was a bit different! Can't remember how now though!

Suffering is the bit where emotional pain is added to the original injury by responding to stories about imagined scenarios.

Yes familiar with this concept known as the second arrow. The first arrow the unavoidable suffering which arises from being human.

i believe that Buddha said that desire was the beginning of suffering.
Well, wanting anything to be different than it is, that's desire.

Yes agree

Having shoulds/shouldn'ts (judgments) that's certainly adding stories to circumstances.

Yes absolutely, see this clearly yet often experience happens as if i don't see it or remember...its not in mamaki control...

"accepting" is insufficient. Better it be a welcome invite to that which can't be changed. (which is everything that is noticed)

OK, very helpful instruction. So it's an active welcome not a mere tolerance. I love this and it has been happening with the word 'welcome' to feelings of discomfort in the body as well as feelings of anxiety. If its better to welcome and i have feelings and thoughts about wanting this to happen it seems it is more likely to happen but not all the time. Very curious ! Who knows?!

and knowing that the mamaki organism (in its lifetime of experience) will respond accordingly without a doer.

This is a trusting. When it is seen that a doer is not required, it develops.

Something about this response from you warmed the heart so to speak. Yes trusting is happening...

Lots of stories about what's mine
They will fade as you keep running into the ownership issue. (until you don't)

OK, very encouraging to know

Losing meaning seems akin to depression...

Oh wow! Gee, losing meaning here was a declaration of freedom. It heralded that I didn't have to follow blindly a path of conformity.
It was an acknowledgement of the great mystery. A celebration of discovery and surprise.
It also freed me from having to even think about some of the more bizarre stories about meaning that seemingly rational people actively promoted.

Wow, fascinating! When this answer was written there was an assumption that you would pick up on the aversion to going there...maybe even encouraging me to welcome it in...the depression with lack of meaning. I have some strong stories from family history of suicide.
So your response was totally unexpected! And welcomed!
In my late 20's I discovered Feminism, Buddhism and Imagination. All bringing meaning and that fire has been kept going ever since. Particularly imagination and the spaciousness of past and future which was a new perspective. Previously had felt very vacant in the present sitting staring out the window feeling directionless...
Is meaning to be totally dropped or is it a gradual seeing that stories arise to console and inspire and keep self intact?

But still very fearful of failure.

An even more confining story than meaning. Is it possible to get out of that one without PTSD?

I think I may have exaggerated saying 'very' fearful of failure. An old story needing updating! There's been much more risk taking and mistakes being accepted going on in the last decade. 'Feel the fear and do it anyway'. Looking forward to playing with inviting it and welcoming it!

It is impossible for you to imagine something that isn't part of your experience.
Mmm maybe
Oh, so you aren't sure on this one?

Imagination attempts a projected image (from my library as you put it) like wanting a friend to be happy and cultivating an image in the mind of that with associated feelings. So it's not impossible to imagine BUT the image in the mind will never be actual. Yes I get what your pointing to.

Looked at like this it's so convoluted and removed from actual experience.

..and what is that?

Actual experience will include the thoughts about thoughts and probably sensations of body and feelings will be in the background of awareness.
This is what happens here a lot of the time with convoluted thinking!

Impossible to know what is going on over there.
Realise this statement contradicts what I wrote earlier!

Absolutely! Not even possible to know what's going on over here either. It's all a mystery, and what a relief that is.

Yes, what's going on over here has a subtle sense of nobody home. Thought suggests I'm just suppressing the sense of me, 'deliberately' holding a sense of self in the background. Awareness knows the I thought comes up a lot but it is seen and gently dropped. To what extent its hard to say. Can't know for sure what's 'really' happening. Trusting the process...

So much appreciation for your guidance, vince

Love mamaki 🙏

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Mamaki,

Yes absolutely, see this clearly yet often experience happens as if i don't see it or remember...

That's to be expected. ..but they change. Habits dwindle away.
Triggers trigger responses. If we see this happen, then we laugh. ..even if it is some time after, that the recognition happens.

its not in mamaki control...

Yes.

If its better to welcome and i have feelings and thoughts about wanting this to happen it seems it is more likely to happen but not all the time. Very curious ! Who knows?!

It's a discovery. Wonder full.

Is meaning to be totally dropped or is it a gradual seeing that stories arise to console and inspire and keep self intact?

..or both. Do you grok that meaning is a culturally inspired story?
If we replace one story for another. If we awaken from one dream into another. Is there any time when there is no story?

with love

vince 🙏

[Mamaki]

Good day vince

Is meaning to be totally dropped or is it a gradual seeing that stories arise to console and inspire and keep self intact?

.

.or both. Do you grok that meaning is a culturally inspired story?...

Meaning.
A culturally inspired story...Having been a Buddhist for over 25 years the culturally inspired story is different to the mainstream story.
There are stories of spiritual development and imaginal transcendental role models (beautiful awakened beings with qualities of wisdom and compassion) to move towards. There are many Teachings acknowledging the wisdom beyond words and a path to becoming wishless. These stories have been pointers and may have helped me find LU. There is definitely a culture in my buddhist order of valuing certain things over others. For example friendship is seen as very important, family less so! I've developed a range of inspirations moulded by this culture as well as branching out into personal interests such as druidry which has been gradually welcomed by friends in the order even though I feared I might be rejected. It's all story about experience. Stories I have heard and then experience sometimes seems to match them albeit incompletely. Although I feel different to the culture a lot of the time there is deep conditioning about wanting to belong. Meaning fluctuates between independence and belonging. Thoughts and judgements about who I am and what is happening at any given time...they do relate to an external story of what matters, what is meaningful...
Without all this then I am totally free to be anything...

.

..If we replace one story for another. If we awaken from one dream into another..Is there any time when there is no story?

No I see that clearly. Meaning is the story embellishing experience because the experience is deemed insufficient.
THIS is not enough...or I'm afraid to let go and see if it is or not...! Perhaps it's more than enough...maybe I shall find out...

On another note vince I am going away tomorrow for an 8 night solitary retreat and reception is unreliable. Should be able to continue daily dialogue but it will depend on timing. What's the time difference between where you are and the UK?

Much appreciate your wisdom and companionship

Love mamaki

[vinceschubert]

Good morning Mamaki,

.Having been a Buddhist for over 25 years the culturally inspired story is different to the mainstream story.

Yes, of course. ..and every family will have variations too.
i wonder if we can reduce it to a story with an external source.
Can you think of other story lines that are 'conditioned' in our psyche?

Without all this then I am totally free to be anything...

Absolutely.
i have a story about stories.
Not long after waking up a really good friend died and i was asked to do the eulogy. i freaked at the idea of talking to a room full of people, and even more so because i couldn't even think of her without tearing up.
At some point between being asked and doing it, the realization about stories arose.
Why not just adopt a story that I am ok with public speaking? So i did.
The eulogy went well. i cried. Everybody cried. It was wonderful.

I am going away tomorrow for an 8 night solitary retreat

Having done quite a few 10 day silent Vipassana retreats, i highly recommend that you don't use your phone. In fact every time that you find thoughts directed outward, that you ask what story is running? What is current experiencing? Can you see the story that promoted the (outward looking) story?

Talk in 8 days...

great love

vince