It seems close but yet so far

[CuriousBeing]

That previous post should earn "me" a trophy of longest post but who's going to give it to "me"? Are "you"? Are "you" even there, Ronaldo? Where are "you"? The tables have turned on "you"!

[CuriousBeing]

My experience right now is this. Folding the clothes I can see the body moves and folding happening. Thoughts arise such as judgement about others and doubt about whether there is a self but I notice them and there's a knowing that it's just the mind and its tricks. With that realization it appears there are no more questions or doubts about the self. There isn't a me but thoughts still arise claiming a me? Is that what it means to see no self? To know the thoughts are lying?

[Ronaldo]

Are "you"? Are "you" even there, Ronaldo? Where are "you"? The tables have turned on "you"!

Were you sober when you wrote this?

Is that what it means to see no self? To know the thoughts are lying?

I wouldn't say the thoughts are lying, the thoughts do their job... they are not an enemy to fight, they create this rich wonderful story, look at all the joy and beauty of this story, and when stress, resistance, fear or sadness rise, look at the beliefs that remain, that cause these.

So how does it feel?
what is different from a couple of days ago, if there is a difference?

[CuriousBeing]

Were you sober when you wrote this?

Sad to say that yes I was completely sober. I was a bit excited because it felt like a shift took place when the questioning of who was identifying took place so I made a funny.

wouldn't say the thoughts are lying, the thoughts do their job... they are not an enemy to fight, they create this rich wonderful story, look at all the joy and beauty of this story, and when stress, resistance, fear or sadness rise, look at the beliefs that remain, that cause these.

Yes you're right they are not enemies, just doing their job.

So how does it feel?

It feels the same but when the "me" comes it's noticed and smiled at. Doubt comes and is seen and smiled at too.

what is different from a couple of days ago, if there is a difference?

There's a strange sense of knowing. Seeking has lessened and it's all happening. It's hard to describe. Worry arises that this will pass and nothing has changed but there's a slight difference as though this cannot be forgotten but only intensifies as time goes on.

[Ronaldo]

Hi Simon,
I'm glad you were through and went through it again, you did good work, and that is your prize.

Sensations coming and going but not fear or frustration. Thoughts questioning the method and doubting the result but they are just thoughts. A story.

It's worthwhile to see thoughts for what they are, but ignoring them doesn't always work, it's far better to investigate if you're not rushing, definitely when you do an inquiry. So take that thought that doubts and says that you're fooling yourself and put it to the test, "is it true?", what are the evidence supporting the thought, what can you see right now? Test it again, is there anything that controls? Any agent that decides?
Ignoring is bypassing.

I see thought content as not real and wonder why this isn't enough. Then I realise that's just another thought disguising itself. Thinking won't get me there so the confusion lies still in thought pulling me away from what is.

Who knows, some need to see it once, some have to see it many many times. Keep looking and do not fall into the trap of bypassing as above, you're still in story land when another thought dismisses the first one "ah, it's just a thought.." see that?

Calmer and more detached. Seeing all this yet without any realization feels uncomfortable. I see it as just another thought. I want to write I feel no different but this also is seen as a thought. There is no me so how could "I" feel any different?

Again, you're rationalizing, if x then y. You're trying to grasp, give it time and give it space (both don't actually exist BTW 😉).

What is identifying?

Nothing can be identifying because nothing is here.

The reply here is an intellectual reasoning (if-> then), somehow when you're inside a "deep" thought it's unnoticeable and as long as you're zoomed in, it is believed, it's confused for reality, see that?
And often one thought ends and another begins with almost no gap.



The body is more than thoughts, it's the core of identification and we'll take a deeper look at it.
Again, do this like a botanist looks at a new species of flower.


1. Close the eyes and hold up one hand. Pay attention only to the felt sensations ‘of the hand’.
2. Open the eyes, and now observe the hand by looking only.
3. While looking at the hand, pay attention to the felt sensations.

Repeat 1 to 3 as many times as needed and investigate…

Normally we believe that the sensation is coming from the image/color, the ‘object’ seen (hand).

But if you look, is there any link between the sensation and the image/color? In other words, is the sensation ‘coming from’ the image/color (labeled as hand) or only thoughts and mental constructs link them?

Can you see that both the image/color and the sensation appear simultaneously but ‘separately’, meaning that none of them is coming from the other or contained by the other?

Do they just appear equally, ‘beside’ each other without any hierarchy or link between them?

So you can repeat this with all of the body parts below, one-by-one.
Next please do the same for the head (looking into the mirror).

Now bring the thought "me" and focus on sensations.
Are there a specific body sensation that get stronger? Can you find some that are attached to this tag "me"?

[Ronaldo]

Another note about what you said:

There's a strange sense of knowing. Seeking has lessened and it's all happening. It's hard to describe. Worry arises that this will pass and nothing has changed but there's a slight difference as though this cannot be forgotten but only intensifies as time goes on.

These are good signs, keep focusing on the experience, try to let go of the expectations and the results and they will come in time. It can feel frustrating to look and look and find nothing there, just like you look for your lost keys, you search the same places over and over sometimes until you're convinced they aren't there. With many it is the keen looking, with curiosity over and over that finally brings the shift.

[CuriousBeing]

The reply here is an intellectual reasoning (if-> then), somehow when you're inside a "deep" thought it's unnoticeable and as long as you're zoomed in, it is believed, it's confused for reality, see that?

Yes. It's another loop of thoughts.

Can you see that both the image/color and the sensation appear simultaneously but ‘separately’, meaning that none of them is coming from the other or contained by the other?

Yes. There are sensations, colours and there are thoughts. Similar to how looking at the colour/image of hand brings about the thought "hand". They are separate.

Do they just appear equally, ‘beside’ each other without any hierarchy or link between them?

Rubbing fingers together there is color and sensation. Thoughts say "the fingers are touching and the result is the sensation" but they are separate. The link is an illusion brought about by thought.

Now bring the thought "me" and focus on sensations.
Are there a specific body sensation that get stronger? Can you find some that are attached to this tag "me"?

Sensations across the whole body intensify. A sensation labelled as "frustration" also comes up and is very strong today.

Today feels harder. Frustration is very strong with boredom and anger. Apart from your questions should I be inquiring into who is thinking and who is here while going about the day?
Frustration arises, should I inquire and look for who is feeling?

These are good signs, keep focusing on the experience, try to let go of the expectations and the results and they will come in time. It can feel frustrating to look and look and find nothing there, just like you look for your lost keys, you search the same places over and over sometimes until you're convinced they aren't there. With many it is the keen looking, with curiosity over and over that finally brings the shift.

Do you mean just be without any question? This appears possible and it gets quiet. Thoughts come and go and I watch.

[Ronaldo]

Try to change the question a bit, rather than "who" try "what", look for the agent that sees, hears, does.
What do you "do" after the question? Do you just wait for an answer?
Ask and look, watch like a cat awaits a mouse to emerge out of a hole, look as if you're trying to find where a faint buzz is coming from.

[CuriousBeing]

I know you said not to look up material but I felt I was putting too much effort in so I looked this up (https://youtu.be/Lb3PzxwEKCQ) and found it very helpful. What he points to was seen immediately and everything then passes by. I shall stay with this a bit longer if you agree.

[Ronaldo]

Sure, stay with that for a while!

[Ronaldo]

Although I don't actually agree with some of his pointers, e.g. the "awareness" part used as a noun is a bad pointer where I come from. Can you find awareness? Or can you ever only find "awaring", or "awareness of' ? Identifying with something called 'awareness' is no different that identifying with something called 'self', it's just a more mysterious and elevated form of identification. It's an ego trap unless you first lose all identification with 'self'.

[CuriousBeing]

I see what you mean but I didn't mean follow his pointers just how he described it seemed to be without effort. You see that you're not sensations, thoughts, sounds, sights or smells so therefore what's here? I find that to be easy to follow and just be. I don't look for awareness because awareness is another concept like you said.

What I'm doing is sort of zooming out and watching. I zoom and be and wonder "what is seeing?" "What is thinking?" No thoughts answer, some come up with distractions but are seen and again asked "what is thinking?" Thoughts continue to say it's a waste of time and this won't lead to realization but I just watch.

[Ronaldo]

Good, only don't be a passive looker, i.e. "what is seeing?"... wait for an answer.
Rather, look at an object, ask
what is receiving these colors?
where are these colors perceived?

switch to sound
Where is this sound known?

Switch between an image and a sound
can both be known at the same time?
Where are they known? Same place? no place?

get curious :)

[Ronaldo]

And - again, look, search, don't just wait for a thought to give the answer.

[CuriousBeing]

Oh that makes things interesting! I'll report back later tonight.

Thanks again, Ron :)