Inquiry with forgetmenot

[Allen12]

Hi Kay,

Thanks for the tips and exercises. I will be doing more of them.

What is memory exactly? What is the memory ‘made of’?

Just thought.

Is there any difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘memory’ thought?

No, both are just thought.

WHEN does the memory actually appear?

Now. In the present.

How is it known that a ‘memory’ thought refers to something that has happened?

It's impossible to tell if the thing actually happened or not.

What is the future thought ‘made of’?

Thought.

WHEN does the future thought appear?

In the now.

Is there a difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘future’ thought?

No, both are just thought.

How is it known that a ‘future’ thought refers to something that will happen?

This isn't known. It's just a thought.

What is the difference between the thoughts about past and future in actual experience? If there is a difference, how is that difference known exactly?

No difference. Both are just thought.

Can a past or future be known? Or all that is known are the AE of thoughts labelled as ‘memory’ that are appearing now?

All that is known are the thoughts appearing now. All that is known is the present.

In actual experience:-
Where is last week?
Where is yesterday?
Where is this morning?
Where is five minutes ago?
Where is one minute ago?
Where is last night?
Where is midnight?
Where is tomorrow morning?
Where is next week?
Where is next month?
Can you find any of these? Or only ‘memory’ thoughts about these appearing now?

All these only appear in thought. Thought can only appear now.

Thanks,

Allen

[forgetmenot]

Hey Allen,

Okay, so let's look at the idea of a me 'here' and a world, others ie objects 'out there'. Is there an experiencer of experience, or are they one and the same. We'll use seeing as the means to look.

Ask yourself what separates your from colour?

Firstly, look at whatever is in front of you.
Is it seen from the perspective of two windows (eyes), or is it like a windscreen view?
Now zoom back inwards and try to find that which is seeing.

Is seeing separate from what’s seen, or is there just what’s seen? Is there any awareness separate from experience or is there just experience?

Is what is seen of the body separate to what's seen, or is it part of seamless whole that is seen?

Are seeing and knowing separate or are they one and the same. Is seeing colour and seeing seeing different? Is there seeing AND colour or are they one and the same seeingcolour?

Is there two things present? Colour AND experience? Or are colour and experience one and the same?

Now look at the display before you.
When seeing it, is there any division between seeing, see-er, and the seen?
Are these three separate?

If yes, can you find the boundary between the three? Not an imagined, conceptual boundary, but an actual boundary that can be perceived with one or more of the senses?

Kay

[Allen12]

Hi Kay,

Is seeing separate from what’s seen, or is there just what’s seen? Is there any awareness separate from experience or is there just experience?

There's just what's seen. Awareness isn't separate from experience. There's just this one thing here.

Is what is seen of the body separate to what's seen, or is it part of seamless whole that is seen?

What's seen of the body is just part of colour, part of the seamless whole that is seen.

Are seeing and knowing separate or are they one and the same. Is seeing colour and seeing seeing different? Is there seeing AND colour or are they one and the same seeingcolour?

Seeing and knowing are the same. Seeing and colour are the same as well.

Is there two things present? Colour AND experience? Or are colour and experience one and the same?

There's just one thing that's present. Like colourexperience.

Now look at the display before you.
When seeing it, is there any division between seeing, see-er, and the seen?
Are these three separate?

This one is more tricky. It seems like theres space between "me" and the display, but there's isn't any separation or division that can be found in reality.

Thanks,

Allen

[forgetmenot]

Hey Allen,

Now look at the display before you.
When seeing it, is there any division between seeing, see-er, and the seen?
Are these three separate?

This one is more tricky. It seems like theres space between "me" and the display, but there's isn't any separation or division that can be found in reality.

Does that space in any way hinder, obstruct or make difficult seeingcolour?
When you close your eyes and then open them and you look at the display in front of you…is not seeingcolour instant and simultaneous? Can you have seeing without the seen, and the seen without the seeing? Can seeingseen, seeingcolour be separate at any time?

Before we take stock of where we are at in our exploration, I wanted us to look at the idea of experience having a location.

Take a very careful look at this...

Does experience have a location? If it does, where, exactly, is it located?

For example: Image of hammer hitting thumb, sensation of pain, thought saying, ""Ouch!!".

Where exactly did all of that happen?
Where was experience located?
Was experience of pain located in the thumb?
Was experience of images located at the thumb and hammer?
Or is experience always "closer" than even the word "here" can convey?
Does anything actually have a location?
How would you know?
What would count as evidence of actual location?

Kay

[Allen12]

Hi Kay,

Does that space in any way hinder, obstruct or make difficult seeingcolour?

No.

When you close your eyes and then open them and you look at the display in front of you…is not seeingcolour instant and simultaneous?

Yes.

Can you have seeing without the seen, and the seen without the seeing? Can seeingseen, seeingcolour be separate at any time?

No, there's nothing separate.

Where exactly did all of that happen?
Where was experience located?

There's no location in reality. We can only know that experience exists.

Was experience of pain located in the thumb?
Was experience of images located at the thumb and hammer?

This can only be known in thought content. In reality there are no locations, thumbs or hammer.

Or is experience always "closer" than even the word "here" can convey?

Yes. All there is is experience.

Does anything actually have a location?
How would you know?
What would count as evidence of actual location?

Once vision is seen to be just a 2d field of colour, the idea of space and location collapses. I can only tell if something is present or not. I don't know where here is. I only know that there's something that exists.

Thanks,

Allen

[forgetmenot]

Hi Allen,

So let's review where we are at with the following questions.

What has changed and what hasn’t in normal everyday living. What changes? What stays the same?
What is the biggest difference from before starting this conversation?
Is seeking still going on?
Is there any confusion at all or anything you would like to address?
Can you say with a big fat YES, it is clear what the illusion of a separate self is?


Kay

[Allen12]

Hi Kay,

What has changed and what hasn’t in normal everyday living. What changes? What stays the same?

Nothing changes. Everything stays the same. Life has always been operating in this manner.

What is the biggest difference from before starting this conversation?

The biggest difference for me is perspective and insight into the things we have been investigating. Particularly non-doership, seamlessness, and no separation from experience. I didn't have as much insight into these things before we began.

Is seeking still going on?

There's no seeking for something other than what's going on right now. However, investigation and looking into present experience is still ongoing.

Is there any confusion at all or anything you would like to address?

I notice that things can become a little more clear with time and more looking. For example, recently I began to notice little moments where thought feels more and more non-personal.

Some areas are more challenging for me to look at, particularly the concept of the body. The belief in this concept is really strong for me. Thoughts will come up that say "there's no way I'm not in a body" or "there's no way that there isn't a body here". So I will spend more time looking and investigating this for more clarity.

Also, thought seems to have an intellectual understanding of the illusion of the separate self and everything we've been looking at, but I realize that this can't be relied on and that real looking must be done.

Can you say with a big fat YES, it is clear what the illusion of a separate self is?

Yes. It's all made up by thought. It's all imaginary. Thought says there's a separate me in a body, living a life, walking around in a 3D world.

However, this story or illusion doesn't correspond with reality when we really look into it and investigate it. The key is to look into what is going on in actual experience.

Thanks,

Allen

[forgetmenot]

Hello Allen,

What has changed and what hasn’t in normal everyday living. What changes? What stays the same?

Nothing changes. Everything stays the same. Life has always been operating in this manner.

Yes, life has always been operating as it operates. However, the question was twofold.

So, what changes have you noticed when you go about your daily life. We know life doesn’t change, but what changes have you noticed with regards you and your daily life?

What is the biggest difference from before starting this conversation?

The biggest difference for me is perspective and insight into the things we have been investigating. Particularly non-doership, seamlessness, and no separation from experience. I didn't have as much insight into these things before we began.

And how does this difference play out in daily life?
How does life feel with these changes?

Is seeking still going on?

There's no seeking for something other than what's going on right now. However, investigation and looking into present experience is still ongoing.

So that restless seeking energy is no more?

Is there any confusion at all or anything you would like to address?

I notice that things can become a little more clear with time and more looking. For example, recently I began to notice little moments where thought feels more and more non-personal.

Yes, clarity will deepen, further insights will happen. That is the nature of the awakening journey.

Some areas are more challenging for me to look at, particularly the concept of the body. The belief in this concept is really strong for me. Thoughts will come up that say "there's no way I'm not in a body" or "there's no way that there isn't a body here". So I will spend more time looking and investigating this for more clarity.

The idea of the body is strong for everyone and it is not a concept that will fall away. Concepts are not a problem, it’s the belief in them that causes the problems. The idea of being a body living life isn’t a problem if the knowing is that it’s a concept.

Also, thought seems to have an intellectual understanding of the illusion of the separate self and everything we've been looking at, but I realize that this can't be relied on and that real looking must be done.

How does thought have an intellectual understanding of the illusion? Does thought know anything. Does the thought know anything? Is a thought a self-aware stand alone entity?

What is it that is aware of all thoughts, all phenomena, all stories? What is it that is aware of life has it happens and unfolds?

Can you say with a big fat YES, it is clear what the illusion of a separate self is?

Yes. It's all made up by thought. It's all imaginary. Thought says there's a separate me in a body, living a life, walking around in a 3D world.

And when seeing this, when realisation happened…how did it feel? What changes did you notice about yourself, about anything?

Kay

[Allen12]

Hi Kay,

So, what changes have you noticed when you go about your daily life. We know life doesn’t change, but what changes have you noticed with regards you and your daily life?

There's more looking and investigation of the "me" and thoughts going on. Other than that, life is pretty much still the same for me.

And how does this difference play out in daily life?
How does life feel with these changes?

Daily life doesn't play out that differently. Most of the time life is happening as though I'm an individual person in a body in a 3D world. It's like I only notice these perspectives and insights when I'm investigating them.

So that restless seeking energy is no more?

Is seeking here referring to some kind of spiritual seeking? There's still seeking going on for me but related to clarity of the things we investigated and my psychological issues. I'm still seeking a solution to them.

When I started with LU my goals were to first see that there's no self entity and to work on my psychological issues afterwards. I wasn't seeking some sort of "enlightenment" or bliss or anything like that.

What is it that is aware of all thoughts, all phenomena, all stories? What is it that is aware of life has it happens and unfolds?

An awareness that's not separate from anything.

And when seeing this, when realisation happened…how did it feel? What changes did you notice about yourself, about anything?

There was a realization that none of actual experience was a "me". This happened before we began this thread when you helped me to get my expectations out of the way. It felt clear for a moment and there was a lot less doubt. But for the most part it didn't feel particularly special. It felt kind of obvious for a moment. I don't really notice changes about myself or anything in particular. Most of the time life happens as if I'm a separate self. Only when looking and investigation happens does this get broken down and examined.

Thanks,

Allen

[forgetmenot]

Hello Allen,

And when seeing this, when realisation happened…how did it feel? What changes did you notice about yourself, about anything?

There was a realization that none of actual experience was a "me". This happened before we began this thread when you helped me to get my expectations out of the way. It felt clear for a moment and there was a lot less doubt. But for the most part it didn't feel particularly special. It felt kind of obvious for a moment. I don't really notice changes about myself or anything in particular. Most of the time life happens as if I'm a separate self. Only when looking and investigation happens does this get broken down and examined.

Life continues on as if you're a separate self, there is no coming one with everything and experiencing yourself as everything, which many seem to think will happen. I was looking more for a perception shift, be it subtle, in how you regard life now, in how you regard yourself now.

Kay

[Allen12]

Hi Kay,

Life continues on as if you're a separate self, there is no coming one with everything and experiencing yourself as everything, which many seem to think will happen. I was looking more for a perception shift, be it subtle, in how you regard life now, in how you regard yourself now.

The idea of there being a self is not as strong anymore. It's not as believable as before and it gets questioned a lot.

And the idea of me being this self is not as solid as before. I think there's just a subtle difference in experience though. Nothing major. But overall I would say maybe there's a little less confidence that I'm this self.

As for perspective about life, the teachings presented by Roger Castillo that you shared with me gave me a lot to think about. I enjoyed learning about how no-self/non-doership carries over into normal human life and human suffering. In particular I never realized how much blame goes around, and there's now a little more acceptance about things that happen. Since there are really no doers anywhere, everything is just a happening that couldn't be any other way.

Thanks,

Allen

[forgetmenot]

Hey Allen,

So for now, I would like us to put aside this exploration and for you to just be with everything over the next few weeks and let it all trickle down, so to speak. I will contact you in approximately 3 weeks and see how everything is going for you then. How does this sound to you?

Kay

[Allen12]

Hi Kay,

No problem, I'll set the exploration aside for now.

Thanks,

Allen

[forgetmenot]

Hi Allen,

Just keep on exploring things as they arise each day. We covered a lot of ground in our exploration, so it's about using what we have looked at in your daily life. We looked at what actually is ie actual experience, as opposed to what thoughts says is, We looked at the nature of thought, the idea of control, decisions and choices. We looked at the idea of the body and memory as well other bits and pieces, so there is quite a lot to keep in mind and explore on a daily basis as it arises on a daily basis. So it's still about looking but also integration.

Kay

[forgetmenot]

Hello Allen,

It's been several weeks now since taking a break from the thread and allowing insights and understanding to filter through. What have you noticed? What further insights, if any, have you noticed? How are you feeling? Can you report back and let me know please, if you have a mind to. If you don't wish to continue the thread, that too is okay, just let me know.

Love, Kay