Forgetting Myself

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Vivien
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Re: Forgetting Myself

Postby Vivien » Mon Nov 02, 2020 12:07 am

Hi Gabe,
As far as knowing how to look at reality, and seeing clearly that there is not and has never been and could never be an "I" in direct experience, outside of the content of thinking? I don't think so. When I do have questions, I know how to look to find the answer.
Great!

What we usually do at this stage of the process is to ask some final questions that I will show to other guides to see if there is anything that we might have missed and that my guiding was clear. Other guides might or might not have further questions for you.

Are you ready for these final questions?

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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adrivenleaf
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Re: Forgetting Myself

Postby adrivenleaf » Mon Nov 02, 2020 12:12 am

I'm ready!

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Vivien
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Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: Forgetting Myself

Postby Vivien » Mon Nov 02, 2020 12:19 am

Hi Gabe,

Please answer the following questions with some detail please, and answer what's true for you rather than any sort of 'ideal' answer. Also please provide examples where asked.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

2) Share in your own words what the illusion of separate self is and how it shows up in experience. Also, through your inquiry, what is different now?

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work?
Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.

b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

6) Anything to add?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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adrivenleaf
Posts: 41
Joined: Fri May 22, 2020 5:37 am

Re: Forgetting Myself

Postby adrivenleaf » Mon Nov 02, 2020 3:05 am

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?
There is no separate self whatsoever. There never was, and never could be. The word/thought/convention "I" can be a useful concept on a relative, human level, but it is fundamentally empty and refers to nothing that exists in reality.
2) Share in your own words what the illusion of separate self is and how it shows up in experience. Also, through your inquiry, what is different now?
The separate self is a myth, and like a myth, it can be a powerful and useful tool, in its proper context. Also like a myth, if taken literally instead of symbolically, it's a source of incredible confusion, anxiety, and suffering.

The false belief leads to such utter, comic futility. Trying desperately to protect/improve/enlarge the status of something... when you can't possibly do anything about anything, and there's nothing to protect/improve/enlarge the status of anyway!

In actual experience, the only place to find "myself" is in the content of thoughts. Thoughts that claimed "I thought that!" "I did that!" "I felt that!" "I'm going to do this!" "I want that!" "I hate this!"

"I" is a label slapped onto pretty much everything in experience, because of an unquestioned and completely erroneous belief that an object requires a subject.

Through the inquiry, nothing has changed, except now I know how to look. I've learned to see past the mountains of concepts--useful and fascinating as they can be--to touch base with reality.
3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
There's great relief from the sense of urgency I've had my whole life to just find The One Right Answer. The path, the practice, the belief, the system. The intellect can never be satisfied, but that's not a flaw.

Things feel lighter, funnier, a bit more exciting. I'm looking forward to what comes next.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?
As I had mentioned earlier, realizing that even the idea of a "hand" in the experience of touching the table was an intellectual thought/belief finally pushed me all the way over. The thought-overlay is incredibly thick and complicated; reality is profoundly simple.
5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work?
Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.
Decisions and intentions and choices are thoughts that appear. Actions happen. More thoughts appear claiming that the prior thoughts were what caused the actions, and that those prior thoughts didn't just appear, they were brought about by a thinker/doer/self: those are the concepts of free will and control.

I have no idea what makes things happen or how anything works. I don't even know if it's possible to know any of that. As far as direct experience goes, things are just happening. All I know for sure is that *I* am not doing it.

Here's how taking a drink of water happens, in my experience. A very, very abridged version.

Raw sensation/feeling.
Thought label: thirst.
Verbal thought: I'm thirsty!
Raw feeling/emotion.
Thought label: desire.
Verbal thought: I want a sip of water.
Raw sensation/sight.
Thought label: water bottle.
Verbal thought: There's my water bottle. I'll take a drink now.
Action happens.
Verbal thought: I decided to take a drink, and then I moved my body to do it.

Essentially, the stream of thoughts is just commenting on what's already happening in reality (and within other thoughts), and claiming that an "I" is feeling/deciding/doing those things. There is no actual evidence to support the thoughts' claims--just more thoughts pointing to other thoughts!
b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.
Thankfully, I'm not responsible for anything at all. It's all happening by itself, just as it's supposed to, and there's not a damn thing I could do to start, stop, or change any of it. "I" just show up in thoughts to take credit (and blame!) for shit I had absolutely nothing to do with, haha!
6) Anything to add?
Thank you. I don't think I could've looked behind intellect without someone helping, challenging, and holding me accountable.

If this is liberation, it is definitely not eternal, suffering-free bliss, and I can see how it would be easy to miss. And kind of a hard sell to a seeking "self". But I can also see how this will slowly change everything, as this truth becomes integrated into "my" life.

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Vivien
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Location: Australia

Re: Forgetting Myself

Postby Vivien » Mon Nov 02, 2020 3:45 am

Hi Gabe,

Thank you for your responses. I am going to ask other guides to have a look at the thread to ensure that I have covered everything and that my pointing has been clear. This may take a few days. Sometimes, not always, the other guides may have further questions which I will bring to you.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

User avatar
Vivien
Posts: 9122
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: Forgetting Myself

Postby Vivien » Mon Nov 02, 2020 11:42 am

Hi Gabe,

Other guides have no more questions for you, so our conversation will be moved to Archive section of the forum.

Keep an eye out for an email notification notifying you of a PM (private message) from the forum inviting you to join our aftercare groups on Facebook. If you don't receive an email notification, you can access your PM's from the forum once you have logged in. The PM also details other resources available to you.

Your username will change from green to blue which indicates that you have had the realisation of there being no separate self. This thread will be moved to the ‘Archive’ section of the forum, but you will be able to access it.

You can contact me at any time if you have any questions via private message here on the forum, or via Facebook if you decide to join our groups there.

Please don’t forget that this is just a beginning. It’s the beginning of cleaning up of conditionings, which needs further looking to help them to dissolve. All sorts of old beliefs, emotions and feeling can come up to see them and feel them. Please don’t stop looking if you want things to deepen.


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/


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