The Gate

Is there a stand-alone sensation/sight/sound/smell/taste/thought? Or is there always a certain blending of these? Or is there a ‘something’ in which they appear?

In my experience, there's always some blending. For instance, when I 'feel' my hand, I am also visualising it to some extent.
There is a 'context' of memory and thought that the sensory inputs occur inside of.

Is the ‘coming to’ a visible aspect of direct experience? Has it existence?

Like anything else, it is sensed as feelings, thoughts, emotions.

Who is having the emotion?

Since we've ruled out Albert, and it's not anyone else- no one! Like my cup from earlier, the emotion is its own subject.

What makes it happen? Is there a mechanism that makes it inevitable?

I am not so sure. It seems that it's happening more often coincides with this inquiry. I would draw a connection, but I cannot see that in my direct experience. Since it is happening, it must be inevitable, I suppose, but again, I dont know by what mechanism this occurs. It is strange- on examination, it seems to somehow be coming from outside the thoughts and feelings. Is this possible?

Why should it happen?

Honestly, it beats me, Bella. It's very mysterious. More mysterious than I realized at first. Why does this 'coming to' happen at all? where is it coming from?
I don't know how to answer this yet. I will look, though.

Thank you again,

Albert

Hi Albert,

Keep looking! Stay away from all interpretations.

In my experience, there's always some blending. For instance, when I 'feel' my hand, I am also visualising it to some extent.

Please be precise in what you see in you actual experience, and where you interpret it. What is visualising? And who is doing it?
 

There is a 'context' of memory and thought that the sensory inputs occur inside of. 

Can you really see such a ‘context’? How does the sensory input get in there?

Like anything else, it is sensed as feelings, thoughts, emotions. 

Look back to my post from May 29. Emotions have 3 components. This indicates already blending. What is the DE of emotion?

It seems that it's happening more often coincides with this inquiry. I would draw a connection, but I cannot see that in my direct experience…
It's very mysterious.

This brings us to the end of our inquiry of the self, or the realising that there is no separate self. As you see, there is never an end to asking more questions.

I hope it is clear to you now how to work with your curiosity about what kind of questions could be asked from the perspective of no-self. Do you feel ready to one more time answer the final questions to this inquiry into the believe in a separate self?

Bella

What is visualising? And who is doing it?

Thoughts which arise by themselves.

Can you really see such a ‘context’? How does the sensory input get in there?

Only in the same way I can 'see' anything. Sensations, thoughts, memories all occur independently, but the context is memories that refer to other phenomenon. "context" is, as I think you're pointing out, an interpretation.

What is the DE of emotion?

Emotions are felt as sensations and thoughts.

Do you feel ready to one more time answer the final questions to this inquiry into the believe in a separate self

Yes!

Hi Albert,

Only in the same way I can 'see' anything. Sensations, thoughts, memories all occur independently, but the context is memories that refer to other phenomenon. "context" is, as I think you're pointing out, an interpretation. 

This one needs a little more.
What is the difference between a memory and a thought?
How does a memory refer to other phenomena? What do you see?
Context is indeed an interpretation.

Bella

What is the difference between a memory and a thought?

There's no difference- I didn't intend to imply that. Thoughts, memories, hopes, dreams, etc. = Thoughts

How does a memory refer to other phenomena? What do you see?

Memories are sometimes more visual, more auditory, more kinesthetic. So a memory can be a visual thought, or a feeling thought.

In that sense, they refer to other types of phenomena.

Hi Albert,

Here are the questions. Please answer them once more. Remember to answer them only from your direct experience. As clearly and precise as possible. Speculation and interpretation are confusers here.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? 
Was there ever? 

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. 
Describe it fully as you see it now. 

3) How does it feel to see this? 
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days. 

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look? 

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.

b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

6) Anything to add?

Bella

Hi Bella,
Thank you! I will work on answering these well.
Right now, I am way too tired.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

No.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience.
Describe it fully as you see it now.

The illusion of self is thoughts about "me" and the story of "me". It is thoughts that refer to a continuous identity that survives moment to moment. It begins when thoughts about 'ownership' of sensations occur. Sensations and thoughts occur, then the illusion of self arises when a connection between thoughts of the story about 'me' is drawn to the sensations and thoughts as if I caused them or own them in some way. "I thought about that, I moved my hand, I am a man", rather than experiencing these sensations 'in themselves'. It is the separation of self and object. It starts with ignorance or a lack of 'seeing', which is shown when this illusion dissipates upon investigation.
The way it works is very simple. It is simply thoughts and sensations which appear, without investigation, to be 'me'. Upon investigation, they appear to be 'sensations'.

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

It feels good to see it. There is really no difference, except that when thoughts that are called 'me' are happening, noticing will often occur, and these thoughts will stop. Often, sensations and thoughts just occur without "Albert" showing up at all. It's nice! Quite cool. There is no end to the questioning. Actually, Meditation is totally different than before the dialogue. It is now very active and relaxed. Watching thoughts and sensations settle, watching 'albert' show up and dissolve. It's awesome, also pretty low-key.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

I had a lasting aha moment when I read the sutra you sent. I remember that as the moment that I went from 'self' to 'no self', for an instant.

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.

Decisions, intention, free will, choice, control- thoughts that arise. These all exist as thoughts, therefore a type of sensation like hot or cold.
I don't know what makes things happen or what makes that work. I will be honest and say I really don't know how to answer this question. Things just happen and it's absolutely incredible that they work at all.

b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

"me" as in "Albert"? Nothing. It all happens on its own. My previous answer referred to 'responsibilities' like work, parenting, etc. These things will all get done without me. I am not worried about it at all. This organism has the nature to do things like that. Albert doesn't need to have anything to do with it (and actually never has).

For instance, when gardening the other day, there was a period without rumination. No thoughts about my mom, dad, job, or anything. Just gardening. It happened anyway.

6) Anything to add?

No, not really, except that if it is found that seeing has not happened here, I will respectfully withdraw from this inquiry for the time being. I feel that there's plenty for me to work with and I don't want to take up any more of your time.

You have been absolutely AMAZING and I've been happy to send a few other folks to this forum. I hope it can help them as well. I appreciate your help so much.

Hi Albert,

Thanks for your answers. I’ve put them to the other guides for checking. Will come back to you one more time.
Glad to hear it was helpful to you. Was my pleasure to guide you.

Bella

Hi Albert,

There is one more question for you.

I remember that as the moment that I went from 'self' to 'no self', for an instant. 

Can you elaborate on what you mean with this?

Bella

Can you elaborate on what you mean with this?

Yes, I can see how that was unclear.

I read that passage, then sat and looked at thoughts and feelings. There was no observer/observed dichotomy- simply experience experiencing. No 'me looking at this'. Am I explaining this well?

So it's inaccurate to say that 'I went" anywhere, and more accurate to say "I wasn't" there.

Hi Albert,

A bit more fine tuning:

simply experience experiencing

Can you describe what "experience experiencing" is, how it looks like, in your everyday life?

Bella

Can you describe what "experience experiencing" is, how it looks like, in your everyday life?

Just unelaborated experience. Bird songs that aren't "Albert listening to the birds sing" but are just "birds singing". Phenomena as phenomena. I don't know how else to explain it, honestly.

Can you describe what "experience experiencing" is, how it looks like, in your everyday life?

Just unelaborated experience. Bird songs that aren't "Albert listening to the birds sing" but are just "birds singing". Phenomena as phenomena. I don't know how else to explain it, honestly.

Hi Albert,

There are no further questions for you. It has been a pleasure to explore the concept of the separate self with you and point the way. 

Keep an eye out for an email notification notifying you of a PM (private message) from the forum inviting you to join our aftercare groups on Facebook. If you don't receive an email notification, you can access your PM's from the forum once you have logged in. The PM also details other resources available to you. Your username will be changed from green to blue which indicates that you have had the realisation of there being no separate self. Also, this thread will be moved to the Archive section of the forum.

You can find your box for personal messages on the forum in the right top.

You can contact me at any time if you have any questions etc, via the forums PM system, or via Facebook if you decide to join our groups there.

Bella