Getting closer ...

[Vivien]

Hi Chris,

It is a speculation, or fear, that the direction we are going in there will be nothing left (no chooser, no controller etc)
In experience there is nothing to suggest there would be absolutely nothing.

OK, let’s look into this fear.

Let’s say that it turns out that in experience there is no chooser, no controller, no thinker, no decider, no feeler, not noticer, etc. That all of these are just imagined.

But the world won’t stop. The body won’t stop existing either.
Sensations, thoughts, colors, sounds, tastes, smells, and even imagination will go on.
In short, experience IS and always will be.

So what is there to fear?

Vivien

[Chris1001]

Hi Vivien

OK, let’s look into this fear.

Thank you, I am needing that.

Let’s say that it turns out that in experience there is no chooser, no controller, no thinker, no decider, no feeler, not noticer, etc. That all of these are just imagined.

But the world won’t stop. The body won’t stop existing either.
Sensations, thoughts, colors, sounds, tastes, smells, and even imagination will go on.
In short, experience IS and always will be.

So what is there to fear?

The fear is that with no chooser, controller, thinker, decider, feeler, noticer....there would be no choice, control, thinking, decisions, feeling, noticing.

Chris

[Vivien]

Hi Chris,

The fear is that with no chooser, controller, thinker, decider, feeler, noticer....there would be no choice, control, thinking, decisions, feeling, noticing.

But this is ALREADY the case!

It’s not that that now there is a chooser, controller, thinker, decider, feeler, noticer…. And as the result of this looking these things could be lost. Not at all.

It’s already the case.
There has NEVER EVER been a chooser, controller, thinker, noticer, etc. NEVER.
It has always been the case.

It is ALREADY how it is in this moment while you are afraid of losing them.
You are afraid of your own fantasies.

These things cannot be lost. It’s impossible.
Since these things has ALWAYS been just imagined.

Before starting this investigation when you lived your normal everyday life, were you afraid of not being a decider, thinker, or feeler?

If you say not, why not? – These things haven’t been there even before this investigation, so should have been afraid of losing them back then too. So why weren’t you?

In this moment as you are afraid of this, and you feel and believe that there is controller, thinker, noticer… and yet… in this moment…. these are just illusion…. regardless whether you see them as illusions as not.

So whether you see them as illusions as not, they are illusions regardless. They have always been, and always will be.
Can you see that nothing can be lost?

Can you see that the only thing that could happen is to see this fact for yourself? And that’s all?

Can you see that all that could happen is just the recognition of this fact? Nothing else?

It’s not that now you have control and you could lose it as the result of looking.
No, this is a pure fantasy.

There is ALREADY NO Chris/me who could have ever had any control whatsoever.
Control has ALWAYS BEEN just an illusion. It's never been any other way.

Feelings are there, but there has NEVER EVER been a feeler.
And just because the fact that there is no feeler is recognized, feelings will show up just as now.

Just as there has never been a thinker, and yet thoughts appeared regardless.

So if the fact of no thinker is realized, it wouldn’t change anything. Thoughts will appear, just as before. Can you see this?

Can you see that your fears are based on a false idea/beliefs?

Can you see that you are afraid of losing control, without recognizing that this has never ever been the case?

Can you see that control cannot be lost, since it’s always been just an illusion?

Can you see that it’s not about losing control (which has never been), but rather it’s about recognizing that ‘I’ who seemingly has control has always been just an imaginary character?

Please reply to ALL my questions one-by-one.


Vivien

[Chris1001]

Hi Vivien

Before starting this investigation when you lived your normal everyday life, were you afraid of not being a decider, thinker, or feeler?

No

If you say not, why not? – These things haven’t been there even before this investigation, so should have been afraid of losing them back then too. So why weren’t you?

Because it didn't even occur to me.

So whether you see them as illusions as not, they are illusions regardless. They have always been, and always will be.
Can you see that nothing can be lost?

Yes, I can see this.

Can you see that the only thing that could happen is to see this fact for yourself? And that’s all?

Yes, I can see this...it's a new seeing for me, so it takes some getting used to.

Can you see that all that could happen is just the recognition of this fact? Nothing else?

Yes

So if the fact of no thinker is realized, it wouldn’t change anything. Thoughts will appear, just as before. Can you see this?

Yes, it doesn't stop thoughts. Thoughts still appear, just as before. But with new thought patterns gradually emerging because of the new understanding....replacing old thought patterns.

Can you see that your fears are based on a false idea/beliefs?

Yes, I can.

Can you see that you are afraid of losing control, without recognizing that this has never ever been the case?

Yes, I see this. But...right now in this moment I don't feel afraid.

Can you see that control cannot be lost, since it’s always been just an illusion?

Yes, I see this.
And then there are thoughts arising which say that it's kinda 'weird'. Not so much fearful right now...just finding it a bit strange.

Can you see that it’s not about losing control (which has never been), but rather it’s about recognizing that ‘I’ who seemingly has control has always been just an imaginary character?

Yes, I see this.

Vivien, there have also been fears around meaning and purpose (you remember I shared about these at the beginning?). The fear is that if I don't buy into the illusion, then I may become less effective in life...lacking motivation etc.
Or less inclined to follow 'my true purpose', as it were. Because if there isn't a 'me' to have a true purpose in the first place, then how can true purpose be followed (there isn't a 'follower' - lol).

Now, as I reflect on this, unfolding can still happen. And unfolding-ness has just as much beauty as meaning/purpose, right? So this is reassuring...

Chris

[Vivien]

Hi Chris,

Vivien, there have also been fears around meaning and purpose (you remember I shared about these at the beginning?). The fear is that if I don't buy into the illusion, then I may become less effective in life...lacking motivation etc.
Or less inclined to follow 'my true purpose', as it were. Because if there isn't a 'me' to have a true purpose in the first place, then how can true purpose be followed (there isn't a 'follower' - lol).

This is based on the same belief I pointed out before.

There has never ever been a self (up until now either) and yet, the seeming meaning and purpose still happened.
So why would this change just because the illusion of the self is recognized?

You are imagining way much bigger things to happen than what actually happens when the self is seen through.
You are imagining as if your whole world could change, as if everything will turn upside down.
But it won’t.

Do you know that seeing through the self is just the beginning? That it’s just a first TINY step?
Do you know that with this inquiry you won’t get to the ‘end’?
That falling away of beliefs can last at the end of the organism?

You’ve created a fearful image about seeing through the self, and now you are afraid of your own imagination. Can you see this?

Yes, it doesn't stop thoughts. Thoughts still appear, just as before. But with new thought patterns gradually emerging because of the new understanding....replacing old thought patterns.

You will be surprised how little your thought patterns will change.
You are imagining a much bigger change than how actually it will be.

Seeing through the self is just a shift in perception. Nothing huge.

Here is a youtube video about a visual illusion of 8 balls moving in a straight line, creating an illusion as if the balls were rotating in a circle. Let’s say that the illusion of the rotating circle is the self. Each ball represents the building blocks of the self (like thought label ‘I’, sensations, visual thoughts, etc). When looking happens, meaning that you follow only one ball, then it can be seen that these balls are not moving in a circle but in a straight line. But when not looking, the illusion of the circle (self) can show up again. However, upon each looking (focusing on once ball) it can be seen that there is no self (moving circle) there at all.

So the only thing that changes is that it can be seen that those balls are actually not rotating in a circle, the circle is just an illusion. But the illusion of the rotating circle still can arise, just as the illusion of the self.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7t7kwy3rN4k

Vivien

[Chris1001]

Hi Vivien

So why would this change just because the illusion of the self is recognized?

Yes, I understand what you're saying.

You are imagining way much bigger things to happen than what actually happens when the self is seen through.
You are imagining as if your whole world could change, as if everything will turn upside down.
But it won’t.

I'm not imagining as if my whole world will turn upside down. There are some insights and then the basic pattern of life continues as before.
I've never expected fireworks from this investigation.
Just sharing the fears that I've had...but they're not overwhelming, and I'm not having huge fears right now.

Do you know that seeing through the self is just the beginning? That it’s just a first TINY step?
Do you know that with this inquiry you won’t get to the ‘end’?

Right....understood.

That falling away of beliefs can last at the end of the organism?

Do you mean until the end of the organism?

You’ve created a fearful image about seeing through the self, and now you are afraid of your own imagination. Can you see this?

I see this. Now that I have a better understanding of the imagination.

Yes, it doesn't stop thoughts. Thoughts still appear, just as before. But with new thought patterns gradually emerging because of the new understanding....replacing old thought patterns.

You will be surprised how little your thought patterns will change.
You are imagining a much bigger change than how actually it will be.

But this is based on what I'm seeing now, rather than expectations.
There have been some subtle changes in the thought processes (not huge changes).

Seeing through the self is just a shift in perception. Nothing huge.

Yes....agreed.

So the only thing that changes is that it can be seen that those balls are actually not rotating in a circle, the circle is just an illusion. But the illusion of the rotating circle still can arise, just as the illusion of the self.

Ok, I'll go check this video out :)

Chris

[Chris1001]

Okay, I had a look at the video.
It's an interesting illustration of how the illusion works.
Good stuff :)

[Vivien]

Hi Chris,

Okay, I had a look at the video.
It's an interesting illustration of how the illusion works.

And seeing that the self is just an illusion is quite similar. When you look, you can see each building blocks of it (like the individual balls). But when you don’t look, the illusion of the self (just as the circle) is still there.

Do you mean until the end of the organism?

Yes, I left a word out :)

But this is based on what I'm seeing now, rather than expectations.
There have been some subtle changes in the thought processes (not huge changes).

I’m not saying that there are no changes in thoughts, but not huge changes. Nothing to be afraid of :)
Please save my last two posts about fears, in case you might need to re-read them later.

Can we go back to looking?

Look around, what are you choosing right now?
Are the colours seen your choice or are they here?
How about sounds and sensations?
Can you choose what taste happens when you eat something?

Really connect this to your experience and don’t rush. Today I won’t be able to reply back as much.
So stay with this for the rest of the day, and come back with a reply tomorrow.

Vivien

[Chris1001]

Hi Vivien,

Please save my last two posts about fears, in case you might need to re-read them later.

Ok

Can we go back to looking?

Sure

Look around, what are you choosing right now?

I am not aware of choosing anything right now.

Are the colours seen your choice or are they here?

No, they are just here. They aren't being chosen by me.

How about sounds and sensations?

I am not choosing them, they just 'happen'.

Can you choose what taste happens when you eat something?

No I cannot.

Chris

[Vivien]

Hi Chris,

Please put some chocolate (or something you think you shouldn’t eat or drink) in front of you. Look at it. Inspect it closely. Smell its delicious fragrance. And pay attention to emerging desire to eat it.

When the desire is there, pay close attention to the thought process.
See how thoughts list pros and cons why you should or shouldn’t eat the chocolate.
These opposing thoughts might even try to argue or convince each other what to decide.

What is it that is considering these options?

Is there anything that is listing the pros and cons, or only just thoughts appear about pros and cons? – look very carefully

Now, make a decision, but whatever you decide, don’t eat the chocolate (yet). Rather just pay very close attention when the decision is made. Particularly pay attention to thoughts, as the decision is made.
Let’s say a thought appear: “I decided not to eat the chocolate”

So the thought about the decision just appeared. What made that thought to appear?
Can you find the thing that made that decision, apart from the presence of the thought about the decision?
How exactly the decision is made?

Now, act according to the decision. (Either eat or don’t eat the chocolate.)

What is it that performed the chosen action?

Vivien

[Chris1001]

Hi Vivien

I will do this exercise. But I have a question that keeps coming up. Will you answer it if I run it by you...?

Chris

[Vivien]

It depends what the questions is about. I might not give you the answer you expect.

[Chris1001]

Ok, let's give it a try :)

So, my question is: Is there an intelligent awareness then?

[Vivien]

Hi Chris,

This is not something I should answer for you. Because my answer would be something what you accept and believe in or not. And I certainly won’t give you more beliefs. What we do here to investigate the beliefs you already have.

But we will look into the questions of awareness later, to SEE the answer for yourself. But first, there are other beliefs we have to investigate.

Vivien

[Chris1001]

Hi Vivien

But we will look into the questions of awareness later, to SEE the answer for yourself. But first, there are other beliefs we have to investigate.

Ok, no problem

What is it that is considering these options?

Is there anything that is listing the pros and cons, or only just thoughts appear about pros and cons? – look very carefully

The thoughts themselves consider the options.
The thoughts just appear, and kinda battle each other, or reason with each other.

So the thought about the decision just appeared. What made that thought to appear?

There was nothing that made the thought appear. It just appeared.

Can you find the thing that made that decision, apart from the presence of the thought about the decision?

No, it was like the thought itself 'made the decision'.

How exactly the decision is made?

The thought said: "No I'm not gonna eat the chocolate....because it just gets ridiculous eating chocolate this early in the day....end up eating chocolate all day long."

So basically it (the thought) compares itself to another thought and kinda 'weighs itself up' against the other thought. As if it were finding what is the balance.

What is it that performed the chosen action?

From observation, it was movement that performed the action of putting the chocolate back in the drawer.

Chris