Requesting assistance

[Vivien]

Hi Brett,

So, noticing is happening simultaneous with what's noticed. There is no separate "noticer".
So, "what am I?" All of this. Experience. Still sitting with this.

Why jumping to the intellectual conclusion that ‘I am experience’ or ‘I am all of this’?

All of this – IS.
Experience IS.

But where is the ‘I’ that could say that “I am experience, I am all of this”?

Where is the ‘I’ part of the sentence? Where?
Show me the ‘I’.

Vivien

[Vivien]

Who is saying that 'I am experience'?

[BrandonA]

Hello Vivien,

But where is the ‘I’ that could say that “I am experience, I am all of this”?
Where is the ‘I’ part of the sentence? Where? Show me the ‘I’.

Who is saying that 'I am experience'?

Okay, yes, that language was in response to the investigation triggered by your question “what are you?”. What’s intended there is not that there is an I that is all of this, rather that there isn’t an I, just all of this. There isn’t an I + all of this, an I + experience. But I stated it using the format of “I am X” in congruence with the format of the question of “what are you?”.

So, there isn’t a person or thing saying “I am experience”. There is just experience happening.

Referencing back to my original question from 10/22:
"I can’t find a me. When you ask “what are you?”, I don’t know. I really don’t know. I'd say, well, that means I don't exist. But, then what is all of this? It’s not nothing, otherwise there wouldn’t be any hearing, thinking, feeling, etc. And then comes the question, what’s noticing that there’s hearing, thinking, feeling, seeing? What isn’t finding a me?"

But, then what is all of this?

Just all of this. Experience happening.

What’s noticing that there’s hearing, thinking, feeling, seeing?

Noticing is noticing. It’s part of what’s happening.

What isn’t finding a me?

Experience isn’t finding a me because there isn’t a me to find.

Brett

[Vivien]

Hi Brett,

"I can’t find a me. When you ask “what are you?”, I don’t know. I really don’t know. I'd say, well, that means I don't exist. But, then what is all of this? It’s not nothing, otherwise there wouldn’t be any hearing, thinking, feeling, etc. And then comes the question, what’s noticing that there’s hearing, thinking, feeling, seeing? What isn’t finding a me?"

What feels more true:

I don’t exist
OR
the I doesn’t exist?

Noticing is noticing. It’s part of what’s happening.

And is noticing is separate from what is being noticed?

Is there a noticer outside of words that speak of one?

Vivien

[BrandonA]

Hello Vivien,

What feels more true:

I don’t exist
OR
the I doesn’t exist?

"The I doesn't exist" feels more true.

And is noticing is separate from what is being noticed?

No, noticing is not separate from what is being noticed.

Is there a noticer outside of words that speak of one?

There is no noticer, just noticing.

Brett

[Vivien]

Hi Brett,

There is no noticer, just noticing.

And is noticing is separate from what is noticed?
Are there two things there: noticing + noticed?

Vivien

[BrandonA]

Hello Vivien,

Thanks again for staying with this process. I'm attempting to stay with experience and just report the "facts" as experienced. Let me know if you want more or different than that.

And is noticing is separate from what is noticed?

Noticing is not separate from what is noticed. It happens simultaneously.

Are there two things there: noticing + noticed?

One thing.

Where there may be confusion here: Occurrences can occur without being noticed. And, noticing can switch from one occurrence to another. From, for example, the music in the café to the sound of a conversation happening, to some sensations in the body, back to the music, etc. So there is a way in which it seems noticing is separate from what’s noticed because it’s not always noticing everything, not occurring simultaneously with each occurrence.

Brett

[Vivien]

Hi Brett,

Noticing is not separate from what is noticed. It happens simultaneously.

Can you observe BOTH of them (noticing + noticed) to arise at the same time?
Let’s say a thought arise. But can you observe noticing to arise too?

Noticing and the noticed are really happen simultaneously?

Or is the noticing the noticed itself?

Where there may be confusion here: Occurrences can occur without being noticed. And, noticing can switch from one occurrence to another. From, for example, the music in the café to the sound of a conversation happening, to some sensations in the body, back to the music, etc. So there is a way in which it seems noticing is separate from what’s noticed because it’s not always noticing everything, not occurring simultaneously with each occurrence.

Can you see that this is an intellectual reasoning?

If noticing is separate from what is being noticed, then this noticing has to be there WITHOUT any objects being noticed, no experience whatsoever, just pure noticing all alone.

So find this separate pure noticing. What is it like?

Vivien

[BrandonA]

Hi Vivien,

Can you observe BOTH of them (noticing + noticed) to arise at the same time?

No, I don’t notice 2 things when there is an arising.

Let’s say a thought arises. But can you observe noticing to arise too?

No. Noticing is not separate from the thought.

Noticing and the noticed are really happen simultaneously? Or is the noticing the noticed itself?

It’s the latter, noticing and noticed are the same.

Where there may be confusion here: Occurrences can occur without being noticed. And, noticing can switch from one occurrence to another. From, for example, the music in the café to the sound of a conversation happening, to some sensations in the body, back to the music, etc. So there is a way in which it seems noticing is separate from what’s noticed because it’s not always noticing everything, not occurring simultaneously with each occurrence.
V: Can you see that this is an intellectual reasoning?

B: Not until you pointed it out. Dropping it.

If noticing is separate from what is being noticed, then this noticing has to be there WITHOUT any objects being noticed, no experience whatsoever, just pure noticing all alone.
So find this separate pure noticing. What is it like?

I can’t find it. There’s always something arising, so there isn’t noticing without an arising, in my experience. Even when there is very little arising in the way of sounds, thoughts, etc., there’s a slight ringing happening. It’s never no experience whatsoever.

Brett

[Vivien]

Hi Brett,

Previously, you had concerns about responsibility and accountability.
How do you see them know?

Is there such thing as choice or free will?

Is there control over anything? Anything at all?

Vivien

[BrandonA]

Hi Vivien,

Previously, you had concerns about responsibility and accountability.
How do you see them now?

Those concerns haven’t been present for a while. Now they are seen as concepts based on the existence of a me that doesn’t exist. All part of the illusion.

Is there such thing as choice or free will?

No.

Is there control over anything? Anything at all?

No, everything is happening automatically.

Brett

[Vivien]

Hi Brett,

Has there been a shift from intellectual understanding to experiential?
Could you tell me when this shift happened exactly?
And how the shift itself was felt?

Vivien

[BrandonA]

Hi Vivien,

Has there been a shift from intellectual understanding to experiential?

Based on our prior discussions, it seems to still be intellectual. When looking and examining, it's clear. But there was no shift event that I could describe. :(

Brett

[Vivien]

Hi Brett,

Based on our prior discussions, it seems to still be intellectual. When looking and examining, it's clear. But there was no shift event that I could describe. :(

Don’t worry, we will look into this.

In order to proceed with our inquiry, I would like to ask you to write about your everyday life, which could provide me some clues what direction we should go.

So please write me about your daily life as detailed as you can. Write about how and when the self shows up, how does it feel when it’s there, etc. Also write about when there is a sense of control, decider, chooser, or when it feels that you are the thinker of thoughts. Write about anything that could be related to the self/I.

Vivien

[BrandonA]

Hi Vivien,

First, thank you again for guiding this process.

So please write me about your daily life as detailed as you can. Write about how and when the self shows up, how does it feel when it’s there, etc. Also write about when there is a sense of control, decider, chooser, or when it feels that you are the thinker of thoughts. Write about anything that could be related to the self/I.

Okay, here’s writing about daily life here and the self/I:

I have two young kids, and the I seems to show up a lot around their safety. The youngest often puts things in her mouth, so there’s fear of choking. There’s tension around this and a bit of constant vigilance – I have to watch out for the dangers - that’s experienced as stressful, tense. That can lead to frustration with my older when she leaves something around that could be a choking hazard. So

The self seems to show when I take offense to something my wife says, does or doesn’t say or do. Plenty of selfing there! The feelings can include anger, frustration, sometimes pain.

There’s a theme of searching, questions about meaning, lack of meaning in work, etc. This seems self-ing-ish since it tends to degrade into cognitive circles, and sense that “I have to figure it out”.

Sensing more subtly, there seems to be a background sense that in general things aren’t okay the way they are, that “I” have to do something more, different, better, in order to change that. It’s not overt thinking, rather a subtle sense of lack that seems to lead to thinking, planning, doing, fixing, busyiness, achieving by an I/me/self.

Also write about when there is a sense of control, decider, chooser, or when it feels that you are the thinker of thoughts.

This brings up something I’ve been meaning to ask. This may be intellectual, but it’s what I have at the moment in describing it. In daily life, often the I isn’t overt in the sense that it is in the foreground. It’s more like this: when awareness to question or look for the self is happening, it’s clear, but when that awareness or questioning or looking isn’t happening for some time, it’s as though it’s non-existence is forgotten and the self is subtly presumed to be there, and then at some point full-on selfing happens. It causes me to wonder, in order to complete the shift is it best to just make looking happening all the time?

Further reflecting on your questions as the day is unfolding: The selfing seems to engage when two things are present: a) the forgetting described above, i.e. not actively looking and not finding, and b) some kind of uncomfortable emotional feeling is evoked (whether by thinking, or some external event, etc.). The I engages to "deal with" that. Hopefully this is making some sense.

Please let me know if the above is what you were asking for. I’m happy to write more.

Thank you,
Brett