Requesting Vivien as guide

[Vivien]

Hi Claudia,

Believing the thought happens and the story of me carries on..
I point at my head. Even tho that if I analyse the head I can only find sensations.

All right. You can find only sensations in the head.

But does it FEEL like that YOU are believing in thoughts?

Vivien

[Selfing]

Hi Vivien,

color=#0040FF]But does it FEEL like that YOU are believing in thoughts?[/color]

I am not sure what I AM.
It does not feel like I am believing in thoughts but it’s more like I know it’s happening on it’s own and I am reporting this to you. I cannot point specifically to an I that IS believing thoughts.

I noticed today also - when attention is in the I thought, nothing else seems to be present but for a short moment it was like the attention went from the thought to the present experience and there was some sort of disorientation. I then inquired - wait, I thought I was in the thought but how about these sights, and sounds? I am equally aware of the I thought as I am of the present experience. So I cannot be found in thought alone.

One of the main blocks for me is trying to find out what I am. Am I ever going to find out? Or is more finding out what I am not??? I am not thoughts because today I snapped out of the thought and without doing anything At all I was aware of the present experience without any effort.

There is a lot of resistance in me to accept that there is no standpoint where experience happens..

I usually think:
I am earing sounds - would it be more accurate to say - sounds are happening
I am seeing sights - would it be more accurate to say - sights are happening

To think there is a me who is hearing or seeing IS the illusion? Is this correct? Is this “i” MISTAKENLY added to experience? Am I going in the right way?

I cannot deny that sounds are happening, and sights, and feelings.. all happening, but the only thing I am not sure is if they are happening to a ME. That I am not sure about. I am not sure because all my life it was assumed it was happening to a someone but when you ask where is this someone I don’t know. If I can’t see it or ear it or feel it then where is it? Maybe it’s only an idea that needs to be let go! Only that feeling, sounds, sights, smells are happening I am sure about.

Love
Claudia

[Vivien]

Hi Claudia,

I cannot deny that sounds are happening, and sights, and feelings.. all happening, but the only thing I am not sure is if they are happening to a ME. That I am not sure about. I am not sure because all my life it was assumed it was happening to a someone but when you ask where is this someone I don’t know. If I can’t see it or ear it or feel it then where is it? Maybe it’s only an idea that needs to be let go! Only that feeling, sounds, sights, smells are happening I am sure about.

Good if you are not that sure any more :)

At all I was aware of the present experience without any effort.

What is it that is aware of the present experience?
Find the one that is aware. Where is it?

Vivien

[Selfing]

Hi Vivien,

[

color=#0040FF]What is it that is aware of the present experience?
Find the one that is aware. Where is it?[/color]

Above I have described my experience.. now you ask me who was aware of that present experience. And how am I do to that? Find out the one who is aware?
I said that I can’t see it, smell it, taste it, hear it.. how am I to search for it?
I can only describe the experience. How do I search for the one that knows the experience?

Claudia

[Vivien]

Hi Claudia,

Find out the one who is aware?
I said that I can’t see it, smell it, taste it, hear it.. how am I to search for it?
I can only describe the experience. How do I search for the one that knows the experience?

Unfortunately, I cannot tell you the how. Not because I don't want to, but because you have to find your way.

Don’t you believe that YOU are the expereincer?
Don't you believe that 'I am aware'?

I am aware
I hear
I see
I smell
I taste
I think
I feel
I touch
I am looking at the lamp over there
I am here and the lamp is over there
I experience the lamp over there

Are these statements feels true?

Please investigate each statement one-by-one for several minutes each. Make sure that you are 100% certain with your replies.

Vivien

[Selfing]

Hi Vivien,

I can only describe the experience. How do I search for the one that knows the experience?

Unfortunately, I cannot tell you the how. Not because I don't want to, but because you have to find your way.

I appreciate that. I am just trying and trying as if I am going to find something, not knowing exactly what I am going to find..

Don’t you believe that YOU are the expereincer?
Don't you believe that 'I am aware'?

well yes but I can describe experience to you if you ask, but I cannot say who is it that has the experience. To that point I am now ok with. If you ask me to describe my experience now I can tell you all about it, because It is so obvious.. but if you ask, ' who is it that is having the experience' then I don't know who or what it is.. I can only describe colours, smells, sounds, feelings and thoughts.

I am aware
I hear
I see
I smell
I taste
I think
I feel
I touch
I am looking at the lamp over there
I am here and the lamp is over there
I experience the lamp over there
Are these statements feels true?

I find these questions so important!!!!
yes they feel true. This is all I can say for now. I don't know how to see it differently;

I am here and the lamp is over there
If I am the body, then yes the body is here and the lamp is over there. But this is not true because I am not the body. I Know the body, the same way that I know the lamp. I am neither the body nor the Lamp. At this point I seem to be the thing that is aware of both the body and the lamp. What is this awareness? Mabe awareness does not need to be found because it is everything.
Is this the wrong line of enquiry? I don't know how else to approach it.

Love
Claudia

[Vivien]

Hi Claudia,

I am here and the lamp is over there
If I am the body, then yes the body is here and the lamp is over there. But this is not true because I am not the body. I Know the body, the same way that I know the lamp. I am neither the body nor the Lamp. At this point I seem to be the thing that is aware of both the body and the lamp.

Don’t you find it very strange that you can easily find the lamp or the body, but not yourself? The one you believed to be in your whole life?

It FEELS LIKE that the ‘me’, ‘I am’ is constantly here. It’s been here all the time. It SEEMS LIKE that. So supposedly, I am my most intimate experience. Everything comes and goes, but it SEEMS that I am constantly here.

But WHERE is this me that is constantly here?

What is this awareness? Mabe awareness does not need to be found because it is everything.

This is a thought speculation. We are not going there.

If there is an independent awareness, then it MUST BE found, otherwise how would you know that it’s not just an imagination?

Vivien

[Selfing]

Hi Vivien,

I am taking my time with my answers to make sure I have enough time to contemplate what you are trying to show me rather then respond too quickly and not absorb everything.

Don’t you find it very strange that you can easily find the lamp or the body, but not yourself? The one you believed to be in your whole life?

yes it is very strange.

It FEELS LIKE that the ‘me’, ‘I am’ is constantly here. It’s been here all the time. It SEEMS LIKE that. So supposedly, I am my most intimate experience. Everything comes and goes, but it SEEMS that I am constantly here.

But WHERE is this me that is constantly here?

this is me is not constantly here. There are times during the day when I am completely one with experience and this idea of the 'i' and 'me' does not manifest. Experience is happening.

What is this awareness? Mabe awareness does not need to be found because it is everything.

This is a thought speculation. We are not going there.

yes ok.

If there is an independent awareness, then it MUST BE found, otherwise how would you know that it’s not just an imagination?

I don't think there is an independant awareness as in, something out of experience. I don't even like the word awareness as it seems to be something. When I used awareness was in the sense of the continuation of experience.. for instance, the me is not always noticed, there are times when experience is so direct that I don't even have time to conceptualise the me, but there are other times when the me is added on top of experience as in, as i hear a sound - I assume - i heard a sound when in reality only sound is present.. So as I said before the me is not always present, but there is something always present for experience to happen and be known.. experience is constant.. the me isn't. I see, the me is part of experience then?!

Viv have we explored everyting we had to explore? I feel like many times I stopped our inquiry because I had too many questions and the conversations just went totally my way. I think the inquiry was broke at times because of me. Let me know how are we to continue the exploration..


Love
Claudia

[Vivien]

Hi Claudia,

I am taking my time with my answers to make sure I have enough time to contemplate what you are trying to show me rather then respond too quickly and not absorb everything.

Good, please do so.
You did a very nice looking, btw. :)

Viv have we explored everyting we had to explore? I feel like many times I stopped our inquiry because I had too many questions and the conversations just went totally my way. I think the inquiry was broke at times because of me. Let me know how are we to continue the exploration..

You don’t have to worry about this. Gradually, we will cover everything.

So as I said before the me is not always present, but there is something always present for experience to happen and be known.. experience is constant.. the me isn't. I see, the me is part of experience then?!

And when the me is present, how does it show up?
As a sensation? Sound? As an imagination? Or how?

Are the ‘me’ is something that can be turned on and off?
If yes, what is it that is turning it on and off?

Vivien

[Selfing]

Hi Vivien,

You don’t have to worry about this. Gradually, we will cover everything.

oh my God, thank you thank you thank you!!!!!!

So as I said before the me is not always present, but there is something always present for experience to happen and be known.. experience is constant.. the me isn't. I see, the me is part of experience then?!

And when the me is present, how does it show up?
As a sensation? Sound? As an imagination? Or how?

it is more like imagination. Like superimposing the me onto experience. Like there is a me behind all experience i.e - sound appears ( the description is: I heard a sound), feeling in the body manifests ( the description is : My body is having this feeling or I am feeling this).. and the list goes on.. do you know what I mean here?
Also, I have this image in my head of this 'person', that exists in the world, that is sat in a chair at this very moment, who is using her fingers to type an email.. This is how the 'me' shows up for me..I guess you can say imagination then.

Are the ‘me’ is something that can be turned on and off?
If yes, what is it that is turning it on and off?

no it cannot be turned on and off. It manifests as a thought and I cannot control thoughts. Also, and this is very strange - the me thought does not always show up, but it's like its there in everything I do. For instance I am not thinking about my name, like I don't always have to remind myself ( My name is Claudia), i KNOW what my name is without having to be reminded everytime or having to have to have a thought come up saying ( your name is Claudia). So in the same way, the me does not always manifest but it's always 'behind' experience maybe as a belief you could say. I hope this makes sense.


All my love,
Claudia

[Vivien]

Hi Claudia,

it is more like imagination. Like superimposing the me onto experience. Like there is a me behind all experience i.e - sound appears ( the description is: I heard a sound), feeling in the body manifests ( the description is : My body is having this feeling or I am feeling this).. and the list goes on.. do you know what I mean here?
Also, I have this image in my head of this 'person', that exists in the world, that is sat in a chair at this very moment, who is using her fingers to type an email.. This is how the 'me' shows up for me..I guess you can say imagination then.

Can you find a REAL me outside of imagination?

V: Are the ‘me’ is something that can be turned on and off?
If yes, what is it that is turning it on and off?

C: no it cannot be turned on and off. It manifests as a thought and I cannot control thoughts.

So the ‘I’ manifests as a thought, and I cannot control thoughts.

How many ‘I’-s are there? Is there one that manifests in thoughts, and there is another ‘I’ which has no control over this manifestation of I-thought?

Is there ‘I” outside of words that speak of one?

Is there a self independent of thoughts which cannot control the appearance of the I-thought?

Vivien

[Selfing]

Hi Vivien,

Can you find a REAL me outside of imagination?[/color]

what do you mean by 'real' ?

How many ‘I’-s are there? Is there one that manifests in thoughts, and there is another ‘I’ which has no control over this manifestation of I-thought?

there is no more than an 'I'.

Is there ‘I” outside of words that speak of one?

I don't quite understand this questions but I think no.

Is there a self independent of thoughts which cannot control the appearance of the I-thought?[/color]

no. 100% no. There is no self independant of thoughts. Self is thought. If the 'I' thought does not come up there is no 'I'.
But the 'I' thoughts always comes up in interaction with others, or when performing an action.. then the 'I' in infered. Infered = thought.
I don't know how not to see the 'I' thought as not being real.. as not believing in it.. I don't know how to..

with gratitude,
Claudia

[Vivien]

Hi Claudia,

V: Can you find a REAL me outside of imagination?

C: what do you mean by 'real' ?

Are you saying that you don’t know the meaning of ‘real’?

So what is the difference between ‘real’ and ‘not real’?

I mean exactly what you meant in this comment:

I don't know how not to see the 'I' thought as not being real.. as not believing in it.. I don't know how to..

So according to this comment you know what ‘real’ means.

So let me ask the question again:
Can you find a REAL me outside of imagination?

If it's still not clear what the question is about, please let me know which part of it isn't clear.

V: Is there ‘I” outside of words that speak of one?

C: I don't quite understand this questions but I think no.

What is it that you don’t understand exactly?

Isn’t it clear that thoughts are just words?

Is there anything else to a thought than being a word?

Here is the question again:
Is there an ‘I’ outside of words (thoughts) that speak of one?
I don't know how not to see the 'I' thought as not being real.. as not believing in it.. I don't know how to..
Who/what is it that could or could not see that I-thought as real or not?

What/who is seeing the I-thought?

Vivien

[Selfing]

Hi Vivien,

Are you saying that you don’t know the meaning of ‘real’?

So what is the difference between ‘real’ and ‘not real’?

I think that by real you mean what I can see, smell,taste,feel and hear. But what about imagination? What about thought? that is real too. It happens just like a sound happens.

Can you find a REAL me outside of imagination?

if you are asking about a real me, as in, something I can see, taste, smell, feel then no.

V: Is there ‘I” outside of words that speak of one?

no

Isn’t it clear that thoughts are just words?

Is there anything else to a thought than being a word?[/color]
yes and no. Thoughts point to things. Thoughts point to trees, pens, cups.. is that not true? for me to conceive of a tree, there must be a tree in front of me (sight), and a thought that says - tree. In this context thoughts are not just words.

Here is the question again:
Is there an ‘I’ outside of words (thoughts) that speak of one?
no. Outside of thoughts there is no I.

Who/what is it that could or could not see that I-thought as real or not?

I think that the I thought just happens on its own, so I can never point to a who or what.. it is not possible.

What/who is seeing the I-thought?

this question hunts me!!!! I don't know. It is the same as asking me - who /what is looking at the screen now? I can't point to this body because this body doesnt know anything. I can't point to thoughts because thoughts don't know anything - they themselves are also known. YOU SEE.. now I have run out of options to answer this question... there is no what or who is seeing, or being aware of the I thought or of this screen.. whatever I point to will be another thought!!!! this whatever thought will aslo be known.. so again and again.. repeat.. repeat..
There is no way of saying who or what..

can you help me here please? Who or what is looking at the PC screen now?
my answer would be - there is screen and a thought - I am looking at the screen. Who is looking?!


Love
Claudia

[Vivien]

Hi Claudia,

I think that by real you mean what I can see, smell,taste,feel and hear. But what about imagination? What about thought? that is real too. It happens just like a sound happens.

You are talking as if we haven’t covered this topic several times.

So please, go back to the start, but ONLY read MY COMMENTS, and ignore yours.
Just read my comments, and LOOK with EVERY SINGLE QUESTIONS.

This would take some time, several days, or a week, but that’s OK.
Please post me when you finished.

Vivien