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Re: Letting go

Posted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 8:40 am
by Vivien
Hi Dion,

Please answer the following questions with some detail please, and answer what's true for you rather than any sort of 'ideal' answer. Also please provide examples where asked.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience.
Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work?
Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.

b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

6) Anything to add?


Vivien

Re: Letting go

Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:40 am
by Dion
Hello Vivien :)
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?
The is no entity of 'self', 'me', or 'I' at all in any way, shape or form.
Upon looking and seeing the nature of the self, it can be seen that it was always only a selection of the smattering of the vast array of ideas, images, feelings and emotions and named 'me'. As it's very foundation is illusory, (and always has been), it's plain to see that this illusory division and selection never had any veracity. The self is, and always was, illusory.
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience.
Describe it fully as you see it now.
There are the 5 senses which permit access to 'the world'. All direct experience is via these 5 senses. Then there is thought. It is intangible castings, projections, ideas, images, interpretations, judgements, structures and repeat viewings of experiences. Seeing moves it's focus or attention from direct experience to thought and back somehow. Apparently randomly. Or perhaps direct experience and thought move across, or on, or through seeing.
The illusion of separate self is when it is believed that thoughts that pass through seeing are real, and important, and are claimed as belonging to, or being integral to, 'me'. 'Mine'. 'My' thoughts that are private to 'me'. And it is felt that these thoughts have a locality, namely, centred around the body. The body is a relatively constant source of experience, and thinking seems to happen within or near it's boundaries. 'Here 'I' am, sitting at this desk, writing an email'. 'This and that always happen to me'. 'I am successful/unsuccessful/rich/poor/lucky/unlucky', and so on.
So when familiar ideas or experiences or feelings come, there is a kind of grasping or holding or a rejecting, resulting in a 'slowing' , and a seeming intensification of the experience. Because of the grasping or rejecting, the experience or thought seems to linger, to flavour all following experience for some period of time.
3) How does it feel to see this?
It feels liberating :) And interesting. And amazing. And exciting, and beautiful and sad. And funny.
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
Everything operates as it always has. Thoughts appear and disappear. Experience is sometimes pleasant, sometimes not.
The difference is that now there's nothing here to claim any thought or experience as 'mine'. Although the ideas of 'mine', and 'me' still occur, they come and go freely. Nothing leaves a lasting impression.
The experience is lighter, crisper and smoother.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?
Actually I'd been looking superficially on and off for years. The thing that made me look hard and prolonged and with intensity was your suggestion that I do so, Vivien :)
The willingness to take your suggestion was perhaps a 'nothing to lose' attitude. A measure of frustration. And the prospect of swimming around in an apparently meaningless world that 'I' found dissatisfying, was a prospect 'I' didn't want to endure any longer. Something like that.
Does that answer the question?
5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work?
Decision and intention are automatic. I'd noticed years ago that a movement or a decision is 'made' automatically, and then, quick as, thought jumps in and claims it. And justifies it. And explains it. Pretty tricky. As for intention. As far as I can see, it seems that the action begins, followed very quickly by a sense of intention and then the justifying and explaining. All in the blink of an eye. Sometimes there's no sense of intention, or maybe the decision and the intention are the same thing. Expressed as an idea and a feeling/sensation of direction/intent.
Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.
Just now, there was an itch on my nose (must be telling a lie!), and my arm moved up to scratch it. An instant after the beginning of the action, the explanation/intention came out 'I want/have to scratch my nose'.
b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.
There is no 'me' to be responsible for anything. And seeing as everything is automatic, everything will be done when it's time to do it. That's out there! There is literally nothing to do or to be responsible for. Yay!
I was sitting with a student the other day. And he was boring! There was an urge to say, 'can we talk about something else?' 'This is boring as!". But the words didn't come out. There was a relaxation, an acceptance and stillness. But the idea of 'this is dull', and the felling of physical discomfort didn't disappear.
There was no decision to think that, or to feel that. The decision that was made to hold my tongue was automatic. As was the perseverance. Nothing that happened required a 'me'. It all just went, 'tick tock tick tock' of it's own accord.
6) Anything to add?
Not only is there no entity, 'me', but there are no entities. Operationally, 'in this world' it seems useful to discern/divide the one into pieces. But it's nature is undivided, and indivisible, except in an abstract way.
Except in thought.

Re: Letting go

Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 4:42 am
by Vivien
Hi Dion,

Thank you for answering the questions.
Seeing moves it's focus or attention from direct experience to thought and back somehow. Apparently randomly. Or perhaps direct experience and thought move across, or on, or through seeing.
"seeing moves its focus or attention" - So this seeing owns and directs focus or attention?
The illusion of separate self is when it is believed that thoughts that pass through seeing are real, and important, and are claimed as belonging to, or being integral to, 'me'.
“…thoughts pass through seeing…” – so there is a seeing + the thoughts that pass through it?

Is there seeing + the seen (thoughts)?

Where is this seeing?


Vivien

Re: Letting go

Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:13 am
by Dion
Hello :)

"seeing moves its focus or attention" - So this seeing owns and directs focus or attention?
“…thoughts pass through seeing…” – so there is a seeing + the thoughts that pass through it?
Is there seeing + the seen (thoughts)?
Where is this seeing?

I see :) Thank you :)
The seeing isn’t a separate entity. It doesn’t own or move anything. The seeing and the seen and the movement are one. Sometimes the 5 senses are, and sometimes thoughts are.

Thank you, Vivien :)

Re: Letting go

Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:58 am
by Vivien
Hi Dion,

Thank you for your responses. I am going to get other guides to have a look at the thread to ensure that I have covered everything and that my pointing has been clear. This may take a day or so. Sometimes, not always, the other guides may have further questions which I will bring to you.

If there are no further questions, I will let you know and you will then be invited to the LU FB groups.

Vivien

Re: Letting go

Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 6:16 am
by Dion
Thank you :)

Re: Letting go

Posted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 11:23 am
by Vivien
Hi Dion,

One of the guides has a question for you.

Could you please tell when exactly you felt the shift from intellectual understanding to experiential?

And how the shift itself was felt?


Vivien

Re: Letting go

Posted: Fri Sep 13, 2019 12:55 am
by Dion
Hello Vivien :)
Could you please tell when exactly you felt the shift from intellectual understanding to experiential?
The true and clear shift was on September 5th.
Before that, there seemed to be energetic shifting. But the seeing on the 5th sealed the deal. It was clear and deep and conclusive.
And how the shift itself was felt?
It was seen. It was. Seen by nothing :)
There was a feeling of nothing. A calm, clear, emptiness. A feeling of elation. A feeling of openness and freedom. A smoothness. Happiness.

Thank you so much, Vivien :)

Re: Letting go

Posted: Sat Sep 14, 2019 12:17 am
by Vivien
Hi Dion,

There are no further questions for you. Congratulations for seeing through the self and for your persistent looking. It has been a pleasure to explore the concept of the separate self with you. Thank you for being open and willing to look.

The admins were faster than me :) Your username has been turned from green to blue which indicates that you have had the realisation of there being no separate self. Also this thread has been moved the Archie section of the forum.

You can contact me at any time if you have any questions via private message here on the forum, or via Facebook if you decide to join our groups there.

Vivien

Re: Letting go

Posted: Sat Sep 14, 2019 12:41 am
by Dion
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
I'll say hi on Facebook, for sure :)
You were so generous with me, Vivien :)
Thank you :)
I'll be in touch on Facebook, for sure.
Have a great day :)

Re: Letting go

Posted: Sat Sep 14, 2019 1:05 am
by Vivien
You are very welcome :)