How does one still live without self?

[iknownothing]

Okay Stacy, please bear with me with all the writing.

Even if you did not participate in the exercise (I had someone try that once.) Where is there anyone making some choice about that? How does that happen? 

Point, there isn't anyone making a choice whether to participate. It just happened.

Is it hard? Or just unfamiliar? Something to get used to? Not believing content of thought.

Unfamiliar is a much better word, you're right again, it is unfamiliar to me. I guess the hard part comes in with no falling back into old habits.

Stream Exercise 
Does it choose any of its directions? Is it even really a separate entity different from the water deposited in it, the rocks, the depressions in the ground etc? 

I mean science says that gravity and the path of least resistance govern how streams flow so yes, I guess it really doesn't choose any of its directions. Is a stream separate? No, it's just a word to describe all that's going on - running water, rocks, trees, etc.

Is it even the same entity moment by moment, or more the product of weather conditions and water, like an ever-changing pattern? 

It's an ever-changing pattern. Just like our human bodies - skin and hair shed, our bodies constantly change.

1. Can you find anywhere where 'insert name' autonomously intervenes into life, choosing something that is not the product of all the elements; that is not a part of the overall flow?

I'm not sure I understand the question but I'll try to answer it. So do you mean in the stream example if like an alien came from some unknown planet and zapped all the water?

Or like God? Which is challenging because God now isn't separate either. Autonomously intervening with all the elements being all the parts of my life in their current flow?

Doesn't this question hinge on their being something separate? In the questions above, the word stream is not separate from everything that it summarizes. It is all those things. So if I extend that idea to myself, God, any other entity, then it stands that any of those labels are not separate but rather words to describe the sum of the parts?

Maybe I'm completely missing this.

2. Now please consider a regular decision made eg; what to wear in the morning, or what to eat for lunch, and describe to me what happens. There are environmental factors, there are colour preferences (but where did those come from - any autonomous intervention there perhaps?), practical issues (such as what is available), available time for preparation, purpose (eg; need to fill up for the day, or to look hip and cool for that person!) etc.

What to wear in the morning - practical matters: weather, body sensations, general style preferences, clothing availability, cost, whether I've done the laundry, etc. 

I guess you could say - how did you get the money? how did you find the job? how did the clothes that you love end up in the store? Like a sense of "fate"..or being at the right place at the right time. Or that's all story and things just happened without any of the extra fan fare.

Take my dog for instance. I was browsing all the online pet rescue pages, went and personally saw a bunch of dogs, and none of them felt right. Then I came across this picture of a dog and said "God has answered my prayers, that's MY dog" and he was and I adopted him. This decision was made pretty much solely on my physical sensations (deep felt sense of knowing) that I got when I looked at his picture.

So yes, could all of that happened without the story? Absolutely. I guess I see that now. And how did "I" know that he was my dog? Honestly, I'm asking myself that now and it's like a weird knowing/I just made a decision. LIke the palm exercise.
 
Or he came to me? I like to think he was divine intervention (this dog has really been a lifesaver in many ways). Gah, I know that's more stories but how do I explain the feeling? Or I don't right? I had this sense and I acted on it and now this dog is in my life and interacting with him gives rise to all these other beautiful sensations.

God is just a story layer? I don't need to use some external, autonomous "insert name" thing intervening in my life to explain things that I cannot explain. My dog is with me, I found him... God or other thing not required?

Where in there is an autonomous entity intervening in the flow of life? Can you find someone somewhere?

God? God brings me comfort. Angels bring me comfort. Crystal rocks bring me comfort. Being in nature brings me deep relaxation. Perhaps it's not them being separate beings interacting in my life that actually bring me comfort but rather when I think of them and hold the sensations of that thought, the thoughts of them represent the things I already possess and stand as reminders that I already have these traits? Nope, that doesn't stick the way it's written.

Like when I pray to God for strength, I have believed that I am asking God for help in becoming strong - guides, mentors, opportunities to become stronger. So when they show up, it's explained as God intervening. But I guess now it's just who is saying that's how God intervened? Could XYZ thing have happened even if I didn't pray? Yep. It's a story. It's a way to explain something that doesn't require an explanation.

3. Can anything be found for which 'insert name' is responsible – if so responsible to what and for what?

These questions... they are requiring me to really delve deep here. I appreciate the challenge as I really want to make sure this is clear to me.

No. And you have me crying again. Happy tears? Tears of complete and total confusion? No one is responsible because there is no self that can be responsible. God cannot intervene in my life because there is no me. This bothers me though. Like I don't want it to be true.

In this situation, isn't everything futile? I guess it's not if you accept your role in life to be merely one of observing and experiencing. There's no God to pray to, there are no angels to provide comfort? There's no life line, no way to be "saved" because I guess who needs to be saved, right?. 

That seems rather nihilistic. I guess unless you take those things like I mentioned before as reminders of this existence's capability. I am capable of receiving Jesus's sacrifice not as something that he did to save me from sin but rather to remind me that I am sinless? Shit. Now I'm bawling.

I think you'll like that one. What is found?

Tears, laughter, and lots of expletives :-)

[Anastacia42]

Hi Catherine,

Yes, seeing that there is no self, no choice, no free will, nothing to decide is a bit up-ending. Emotions can run the gamut .

You are doing GREAT!

Yes, unfamiliar. When truth is seen untruth falls away. My way of saying it is that we become teflon to lies and untrue thinking. Teflon to the stress that comes from trying to be other than we are.

Stream Exercise
Does it choose any of its directions? Is it even really a separate entity different from the water deposited in it, the rocks, the depressions in the ground etc?
I mean science says that gravity and the path of least resistance govern how streams flow so yes, I guess it really doesn't choose any of its directions. Is a stream separate? No, it's just a word to describe all that's going on - running water, rocks, trees, etc.

Is not "science" just more content of thought? Thoughts saying thoughts prove or do something?

1. Can you find anywhere where 'Catherine' autonomously intervenes into life, choosing something that is not the product of all the elements; that is not a part of the overall flow?
I'm not sure I understand the question but I'll try to answer it. So do you mean in the stream example if like an alien came from some unknown planet and zapped all the water?

Or like God? Which is challenging because God now isn't separate either. Autonomously intervening with all the elements being all the parts of my life in their current flow?

Doesn't this question hinge on their being something separate? In the questions above, the word stream is not separate from everything that it summarizes. It is all those things. So if I extend that idea to myself, God, any other entity, then it stands that any of those labels are not separate but rather words to describe the sum of the parts?

First, I was meant to insert your name in there and I forgot. But keep this simple - do you ever on your own intervene into life choosing anything that is not part of the overall flow? Or is everything part of the flow?

You've got it. Nothing is separate. Everything is part of the flow, is it not?

I guess you could say - how did you get the money? how did you find the job? how did the clothes that you love end up in the store? Like a sense of "fate"..or being at the right place at the right time. Or that's all story and things just happened without any of the extra fan fare.

Right. Ignore content of thought/story. It isn't real, is it? It all just happened. There is no need to complicate it or make some "meaning" like "right place at right time." Can you see how stressful it is to try to do that?

his decision was made pretty much solely on my physical sensations (deep felt sense of knowing) that I got when I looked at his picture.

Yes, just as the heavy, tight, contraction in the gut indicates a lie. "If it hurts you are lying." Byron Katie

A light, relaxed, open feeling in the gut tends to indicate truth or rightness.

Yes, it all happened without the story of Catherine, the story of dog, the story of God. It. Just. Happened. Can you see how much truer and easier and lighter this is? Can you feel that?

So when they show up, it's explained as God intervening. But I guess now it's just who is saying that's how God intervened? Could XYZ thing have happened even if I didn't pray? Yep. It's a story. It's a way to explain something that doesn't require an explanation.

Yes, you've got it. None of those stories are needed in the slightest. In fact, feel how it feels to need, want and believe them. How does it feel in your gut? I found it stressful and dropped the whole lot of it. What do you find?

These questions... they are requiring me to really delve deep here. I appreciate the challenge as I really want to make sure this is clear to me.

No. And you have me crying again. Happy tears? Tears of complete and total confusion? No one is responsible because there is no self that can be responsible. God cannot intervene in my life because there is no me. This bothers me though. Like I don't want it to be true.

Tears of relief? What would you lose if this is all true? What are you afraid of?

In this situation, isn't everything futile? I guess it's not if you accept your role in life to be merely one of observing and experiencing. There's no God to pray to, there are no angels to provide comfort? There's no life line, no way to be "saved" because I guess who needs to be saved, right?.

That seems rather nihilistic. I guess unless you take those things like I mentioned before as reminders of this existence's capability. I am capable of receiving Jesus's sacrifice not as something that he did to save me from sin but rather to remind me that I am sinless? Shit. Now I'm bawling.

Lots of us go through a time of feeling apathetic and futile and unmotivated as we let go of the untrue and stressful thoughts. The more you can allow the beauty and the truth you see in, the easier this may be. Remember that part? Re-read what you wrote about that.

Go ahead - laugh, cry, curse.

Welcome to reality, Catherine.

There are a few more exercises we can do to help ground you in this. Some on the body, on time, on memory. But let's get through this part.

Loving!

[iknownothing]

Is not "science" just more content of thought? Thoughts saying thoughts prove or do something? 

Yes, I guess you're right. Science is just a way to explain things. And often times in history, science got it wrong.

First, I was meant to insert your name in there and I forgot. But keep this simple - do you ever on your own intervene into life choosing anything that is not part of the overall flow? Or is everything part of the flow?

Everything is apart of the flow - they are just pieces in the stream in a way. It's all part of life.

Right. Ignore content of thought/story. It isn't real, is it? It all just happened. There is no need to complicate it or make some "meaning" like "right place at right time." Can you see how stressful it is to try to do that?

Yes, it's very stressful and not necessary.

Yes, it all happened without the story of Catherine, the story of dog, the story of God. It. Just. Happened. Can you see how much truer and easier and lighter this is? Can you feel that?

It definitely feels lighter. There's definitely an edge though - like a razor, slicing and a contraction. It stings, but before the sting there is lightness.

Yes, you've got it. None of those stories are needed in the slightest. In fact, feel how it feels to need, want and believe them. How does it feel in your gut? I found it stressful and dropped the whole lot of it. What do you find? 

It feels heavy and exhausting, distracting, it feels gummy, sticky. It definitely does not feel free. It feels binding. And I see now that none of it is really necessary (the meaning/story) but there's still lingering skepticism. I feel the contraction/pain.

Tears of relief? What would you lose if this is all true? What are you afraid of? 

The "what are you afraid of" is something I've consistently struggled to answer. I honestly don't know.
I would lose control, I would lose my ability to impact the direction of my life, and it's so weird to write that because I know now that I never had it to begin with! 

I guess it's the loss of the belief that all the pain/suffering/turmoil I've been through in my life has no higher purpose. That there's no one to call on to help me change course or that the tragedies I've experienced didn't call me to some higher place. Like there's no purpose, no meaning, no intention to all of it. People slaughter other people, are cruel to animals, incite horrible violence AND THERE IS NO REASON. Which means that it can't change. It likely will continue to happen, there's nothing that I can do personally to make a difference. There's no amount of praying to God, no amount of self-growth, no amount of sharing love and kindness that will create anything different.

If life just happens and there is no meaning (nihilism), that's kinda unacceptable to me. And even writing that though, it's not true. Saying that doesn't feel liberating (it feels like shards of glass cutting) so I guess even that is wrong.
The tears of joy, the feeling of openness comes in acknowledging that this existence has everything and everything that's ever needed or wanted. It extends beyond the stories - I don't need explanations to the various things then because whatever happened was something, nope even this is falling apart.

My partner even asked me last night if I believe in other sentient beings aside from myself and I said no. Because how can I know that he thinks? Like now it seems that only my direct experiences are real. So even the pain and suffering of others then isn't real? But my sensations when hearing the tales of suffering are? And it's then the actions that I do, they don't necessarily have a cause or an effect, but they still exist?

And I know that that's B.S. too because how do I know that my actions are actually helpful?

So then I'm sort of left with: nothing I do matters, I can do whatever I want, there is no good or bad in the world, no way of making a difference, no improving the lives of others, but I should still just carry on doing whatever because that's exactly what I'm doing anyways and any idea other than "things just happen, you just do" is a story.

I'm really struggling with this Stacy, please help.

[iknownothing]

Or is it more like this:

I adopted my dog because I did. Not because I wanted to rescue a dog, or because God answered my prayers or because an Angel told me to do it. I just found him, had a sensation, and signed the paperwork.

And for "making the world a better place" - instead of a story about how I'm "doing all these good deeds", I just do them. I hold the door for an elderly person because I just do. I volunteer my time to help others in need not so I can go to heaven, or help them, or "make the world a better place", because I just do. I flip my palm. I do things. Sometimes they may not be as well intentioned as I thought they would be. That doesn't make them wrong or right - I don't need to deep dive into why it didn't go over well (I've had seniors get mad at me for holding the door because they said "I don't need your help, I'm perfectly capable").

[Anastacia42]

Hi Catherine

Yes, you've got it.

It definitely feels lighter. There's definitely an edge though - like a razor, slicing and a contraction. It stings, but before the sting there is lightness.

Obviously, I can not be in your head or know what you're thinking, but is it possible that you see what's true, get the "lightness," and then some untrue thought shows up & you feel "the sting " or "razor? "


If I'm reading this right, yes, skepticism is painful.

there's still lingering skepticism. I feel the contraction/pain.

There's a reason we tell you that crossing the Gateless Gate is only a beginning. After this there's a whole lifetime of beliefs & untrue thinking to question. This can take years.

That's also why there are Aftercare groups & people to chat with & ask questions.

The "what are you afraid of" is something I've consistently struggled to answer. I honestly don't know.
IYes, would lose control, I would lose my ability to impact the direction of my life, and it's so weird to write that because I know now that I never had it to begin with!

I guess it's the loss of the belief that all the pain/suffering/turmoil I've been through in my life has no higher purpose.

Yes, fear of loss of control that you never had to begin with!

So, where is the loss? Is it real or only content of thought, made up?

My partner even asked me last night if I believe in other sentient beings aside from myself and I said no. Because how can I know that he thinks? Like now it seems that only my direct experiences are real.

Correct.

"No two people have ever met. " Byron Katie

You nailed it in your second post. Yes, we just do things, because that's what love does..

Again, relax. Let all if this sort itself out over time.

Speaking of time, are you ready for exercises about the body, time & memory.

Loving,

[Anastacia42]

This might be helpful.

https://www.liberationunleashed.com/res ... n-meaning/

Loving,

[iknownothing]

Obviously, I can not be in your head or know what you're thinking, but is it possible that you see what's true, get the "lightness," and then some untrue thought shows up & you feel "the sting " or "razor? " 

Yes, I think that's an accurate idea. There's a challenge to the lighter feeling. The challenge lacks real feeling though, there isn't the same kind of depth in the experience.

So, where is the loss? Is it real or only content of thought, made up?

Content of thought, it's not real.

Speaking of time, are you ready for exercises about the body, time & memory.

Yes, please. 

[iknownothing]

Thank you for the link Stacy - I could feel my heart jumping out of my chest and just opening and extending itself in this totally new way. What he said feels expansive and opening.

[Anastacia42]

You're more than welcome, Catherine.

Yes, I think that's an accurate idea. There's a challenge to the lighter feeling. The challenge lacks real feeling though, there isn't the same kind of depth in the experience.

Yes, lies lose their grip, don't they?

So, next:

Introductory Body Exercise

Sit with eyes closed for about 15 minutes.

Paying attention only to the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images:

Can it be known how tall the body is?

Does the body have a weight or volume?

In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?

Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

Is there an inside or an outside?

If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly?

If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?

What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

Look very carefully, especially with the last question.

Take your time, don’t rush. You can look several times during the day while doing other things (like washing hands, showering, having a short break from work, walking, etc) before replying.


Loving,

[iknownothing]

Introductory Body Exercise

Sit with eyes closed for about 15 minutes.

Paying attention only to the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images:

Can it be known how tall the body is?

No

Does the body have a weight or volume?

No

In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

No, ha this starts to get a little freaky - like I never really thought of my body this way

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?

No

Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

No

Is there an inside or an outside?

No

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?

A whole lot - a way of accessing sensations, processing sensations 

What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

The body isn't separate - it's the sensations, the real experience. Like body is a label to summarize the container for sensations. Just like fear is a label for the summary of certain experiences.

[Anastacia42]

Good morning!

Freaky can be fun, right?

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?
A whole lot - a way of accessing sensations, processing sensations
What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?
The body isn't separate - it's the sensations, the real experience. Like body is a label to summarize the container for sensations. Just like fear is a label for the summary of certain experiences.

Yes, kind of. Just watch out for that word alone, "experiences." It can mean too many things.

Same with "fear." Is fear real? Does it exist? Or only sensations? And thought arising?

Be precise.

Use Actual/Direct Experience: Seeing, Hearing, Feeling, Tasting, Smelling & Thought Arising.

Can body be found? Or only sensations are found? How is it that you could say

A whole lot - a way of accessing sensations, processing sensations

IS there a "body" anywhere in Actual Experience?

Loving,

[iknownothing]

Same with "fear." Is fear real? Does it exist? Or only sensations? And thought arising? 

No, fear doesn't exist either. It's not real.

IS there a "body" anywhere in Actual Experience?

No 

[Anastacia42]

Lovely! Fun, isn't it?

Time Exercise

There is a general assumption that there is linear time that started (if started at all) somewhere very far in the past and advances to the distant future. The present moment (now) is considered to be a very small fragment of time, or an event that is moving forward on a linear line, coming from the past and advancing to the future.

But is there an experience of the ’now’ moving along the line of time?

Any experience of one ‘moment’ giving way to the next?

Is there any actual or direct experience of one event following another?

How fast is the ‘present moment’ actually moving?

Just look at 'this moment', can you find a point where it began?

How long does the ‘now’ last?

Where does the ‘now’ start, and where does it end?

When does the ‘now’ exactly become the 'past'?

What is the ‘past’ in actual experience?

So is there actual experience of ‘time’ or thoughts about ‘time’?


Not much to say - just enjoy the exercise!

Loving,

[iknownothing]

But is there an experience of the ’now’ moving along the line of time?

No

Any experience of one ‘moment’ giving way to the next?

No - just like there's no boundary between me and the chair I sit on, there's no boundary between moments.

Code: Select all

Is there any actual or direct experience of one event following another?

No, things tend to just flow. Like the end of one thing isn't concrete.

How fast is the ‘present moment’ actually moving?

No idea

Just look at 'this moment', can you find a point where it began?

No. 

How long does the ‘now’ last?

When you're having fun, not nearly long enough ;-)

Where does the ‘now’ start, and where does it end?

It doesn't start and stop, it's definition isn't real. There is no boundary where it crosses over from now to past.

When does the ‘now’ exactly become the 'past'?

This one is tricky, moments come and go but the past is a label just like fear. But I guess the moment (now) has no boundary? Just like there's no self.

What is the ‘past’ in actual experience?

It doesn't have actual experience.

So is there actual experience of ‘time’ or thoughts about ‘time’?

No. Now is fluid, time is fluid. So there's just thought content about time.

[Anastacia42]

Hi Catherine,

Having fun? Isn't it obvious now that you SEE?

When does the ‘now’ exactly become the 'past'?
This one is tricky, moments come and go but the past is a label just like fear. But I guess the moment (now) has no boundary? Just like there's no self.

Are you asking me or telling me? :)

Yes, the past is a label.

Can you find any boundary to this moment?

Okay, this may be the last one. I'd be happy to share some others & point you to a couple of books with pointers. but you've got this.

Memory Exercise

Almost everybody believes that a memory thought is referring to something that has happened. That a memory thought is a different thought than a non-memory thought.

Please don’t go to thought explanations, but just let a memory be there, and look at it.

Look at what is actually going on and not what thoughts say - but what actually is.

What is memory exactly?

What is the memory ‘made of’?

WHEN does the memory appear?

What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘memory’ thought?

How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘memory’ thought refers to something that has happened?

Then, look at a thought about the future.

What is the future thought ‘made of’?

WHEN does the future thought appear?

What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘future’ thought?

How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘future’ thought refers to something that will happen?

Then let’s compare a thought about past and a thought about the future.

What is the EXACT difference between the thoughts about past and future?

If there is difference and how is that difference is known exactly?



How's the emotional roller coaster going?

Loving,