Not sure if I have crossed the gate

[Samadhi01]

Good day Kay ;)

And does it matter to thought? Does thought know anything? It is only an appearing thought that suggest “it matters to a someone”. What can a thought do? Does a thought have volition? Can it manipulate other thoughts or think new thoughts? Can a thought feel, know, taste, smell, see anything?

And does it matter to thought

?
No, lol

Does thought know anything?

No

What can a thought do? Does a thought have volition? Can it manipulate other thoughts or think new thoughts? Can a thought feel, know, taste, smell, see anything?

No to all lol. Funny to think a thought can manipulate a new thought to go one way or the other....and thought doesnt perceive like you mention.... its just a narrator. its just part of the same story or chain of thoughts...

So to what exactly does it matter if thought appears saying “still doesn’t feel or seem like 2D”?

It matters to no one. Its just a thought that says that it should be this way or that way, and that it matters, etc. Just part of the narrative of thoughts.

What is it exactly that is identifying with a body? When you LOOK can you find a body as actual experience?

I can only find color. So the one that identifies with the body is thought.

The world as it is seen from the idea of being a person is quite miraculous. How it comes together and why….no body knows and when looking…to whom or what does it matter?

Matters to no one. Yes, quite miracolus, I often see it as a paradox sometimes.

But when you look at it all and see the depth and intelligence in it all…it is beautiful and definitely miraculous.

Very beautiful put! When I see pets, or nature... I get this sense of wonder too.

So, we can say, that in actual experience, the arising of a thought (the container) is real, but what it’s ABOUT, the content, is not. The thought (as container) is there in reality, but the content of a thought is fiction. Do you see the difference?

I do see what you mean. We explored this before in that cup exercise, and it has been a big help in ignoring the contents sometimes of thoughts. But when you say the content is not real, it might no be real 'sometimes', but these contents is what makes the 'character' do his stuff in life, work, etc. I cant imagine going around ignoring all contents, like ie 'Tomorrow I have to finish this job'. I just cant say this content is not real and ignore it. I might loose clients if I dont follow that content of the thought.

Hahahaha! There are many names for THIS/experience/knowing/awareness/God/Spirit/Universe/Consciousness/colourtastesmellthoughtsoundsensation. It doesn't matter what it is called, because it all simply THIS appearing exactly as it is...Itself! :)

I cant disagree with that! Love how these recognition's little by little become easier and relaxed.

Blessings to you Kay :)

[forgetmenot]

Hello Zazen,

What is it exactly that is identifying with a body? When you LOOK can you find a body as actual experience?

I can only find color. So the one that identifies with the body is thought.

No…thought knows nothing. Thought cannot identify with anything and doesn’t have a clue if there is or isn’t anyone who is identifying with something. Have we not looked at what thought is comprehensively, and yet you insist that thought knows something.

When you LOOK, can you find anyone or anything that is identifying with a body…or is there simply thoughts appearing ABOUT a someone/something that is identifying with a body?

So, we can say, that in actual experience, the arising of a thought (the container) is real, but what it’s ABOUT, the content, is not. The thought (as container) is there in reality, but the content of a thought is fiction. Do you see the difference?

I do see what you mean. We explored this before in that cup exercise, and it has been a big help in ignoring the contents sometimes of thoughts. But when you say the content is not real, it might no be real 'sometimes', but these contents is what makes the 'character' do his stuff in life, work, etc. I cant imagine going around ignoring all contents, like ie 'Tomorrow I have to finish this job'. I just cant say this content is not real and ignore it. I might loose clients if I dont follow that content of the thought.

Really? I think perhaps it is time that you went back to the beginning of your thread and read it very carefully and thoroughly. After all this pointing and you looking, you are still saying there is a ‘you’ who is in control, makes choices and decisions and that thought is the catalyst for action. I must be a very poor guide indeed.

So please do that. It may take you a week or more, but reread your thread thoroughly, redo the exercises and when you have done that, report back what you got from doing this.

Love, Kay

[Samadhi01]

Hi Kay,

I took some time to go over the posts and redid exercises.

No…thought knows nothing. Thought cannot identify with anything and doesn’t have a clue if there is or isn’t anyone who is identifying with something. Have we not looked at what thought is comprehensively, and yet you insist that thought knows something.

When you LOOK, can you find anyone or anything that is identifying with a body…or is there simply thoughts appearing ABOUT a someone/something that is identifying with a body?

I got this when I first read your reply. Yes, its a thought appearing that says something is identifying. Its the story, thoughts. I get this. But its a sneaky situation, because conditioning keeps coming back even tough I have gone trough this exploration.

Really? I think perhaps it is time that you went back to the beginning of your thread and read it very carefully and thoroughly. After all this pointing and you looking, you are still saying there is a ‘you’ who is in control, makes choices and decisions and that thought is the catalyst for action. I must be a very poor guide indeed.

So please do that. It may take you a week or more, but reread your thread thoroughly, redo the exercises and when you have done that, report back what you got from doing this.

Again, I saw what you meant right away after reading your reply, but took the time off to go over these explorations. And yes, totally see that choosing, choice, is a reflex of thought... its thought that said: I cant imagine going around ignoring all contents, like ie 'Tomorrow I have to finish this job'. I just cant say this content is not real and ignore it. I might loose clients if I dont follow that content of the thought.
but could I control that response to you?

The difficult part is disengaging from that conditioning, I guess it takes continuous practice observing thoughts, because a lot of these reply's I do to you, is just thought 'happening'... then I look and I see that yes, theres no chooser or controller of decisions... so that response is wrong. But was is my fault? lol!

So, in conclusion, if theres no chooser of thoughts, my replys to you, even that one that got me sent for a week vacation lol, was just thought happening without anything I could do about it. In other words, it was just the story playing our to you, so If I can control my thoughts or replys, then what gives?.... i have no control over what I have to reply to you. If I give you a reply that seems very stupid or that I seem to not understand this exploration, is it my fault? Did I control that response to you?.... of course, after your comment, then I reflect back and I see what you mean.

Thanks, Z.

[forgetmenot]

Hey Zazen,

Welcome back :)

When you LOOK, can you find anyone or anything that is identifying with a body…or is there simply thoughts appearing ABOUT a someone/something that is identifying with a body?

I got this when I first read your reply. Yes, its a thought appearing that says something is identifying. Its the story, thoughts. I get this. But its a sneaky situation, because conditioning keeps coming back even tough I have gone trough this exploration.

???? What exactly is it that “conditioning keeps coming back” to? Is that not just a thought?

Everything is running on automatic. If you watch a great movie and get sucked up in a good part, then zoom out, you see it’s just a movie, though for a few minutes the focus was completely on what was going on. This is also happening in what is termed 'real life' There is zooming in and out of character. Identification with the story is also part of story. Attachment to pleasure and fear of pain are also stories. There is nothing that attaches, only the story about attachment and only stories about conditioning.

If you don't notice the difference between what thought says about reality, and how you find reality to actually be (ie AE), you won't notice your innate peace and freedom. In order to notice that difference, the very first thing you have to notice is whether, or not, you are the author of thoughts. Or whether ANYTHING is authoring thoughts. The second thing you need to notice is whether thought is aware of what it says, or not. Once you are sure of the answers to those questions, the differences between what thought says about reality, and how you find reality to ACTUALLY be, will reveal themselves. And you are not seeing the difference even when I keep pointing to the same thing over and over and over.

Really? I think perhaps it is time that you went back to the beginning of your thread and read it very carefully and thoroughly. After all this pointing and you looking, you are still saying there is a ‘you’ who is in control, makes choices and decisions and that thought is the catalyst for action. I must be a very poor guide indeed.

So please do that. It may take you a week or more, but reread your thread thoroughly, redo the exercises and when you have done that, report back what you got from doing this.

Again, I saw what you meant right away after reading your reply, but took the time off to go over these explorations. And yes, totally see that choosing, choice, is a reflex of thought... its thought that said: I cant imagine going around ignoring all contents, like ie 'Tomorrow I have to finish this job'. I just cant say this content is not real and ignore it. I might loose clients if I dont follow that content of the thought.
but could I control that response to you?

Don’t throw non dual back at me in this exploration, Zazen. That won’t benefit you in any way. I am not the enemy…it is up to you to LOOK and to make sure that what is being pointed at is being understood, seen and implemented. I volunteer my time to help others to liberation, and I certainly don't appreciate my time being under appreciated.

The difficult part is disengaging from that conditioning, I guess it takes continuous practice observing thoughts, because a lot of these reply's I do to you, is just thought 'happening'... then I look and I see that yes, theres no chooser or controller of decisions... so that response is wrong. But was is my fault? lol!

Change the language. And I am not asking you to do that for me…but for you. The language you use is what will keep you clear or will muddy the waters. You do need to help yourself…I won’t be around forever to keep pointing to make sure you are clear.

So, in conclusion, if theres no chooser of thoughts, my replys to you, even that one that got me sent for a week vacation lol, was just thought happening without anything I could do about it. In other words, it was just the story playing our to you, so If I can control my thoughts or replys, then what gives?.... i have no control over what I have to reply to you. If I give you a reply that seems very stupid or that I seem to not understand this exploration, is it my fault? Did I control that response to you?.... of course, after your comment, then I reflect back and I see what you mean.

Good…because nobody likes a smart arse and I have better things to do with my time than to play games.

Okay…so moving along.

There is a general assumption that there is linear time that started (if started at all) somewhere very far in the past and advances to the distant future. The present moment (now) is considered to be a very small fragment of time, or an event that is moving forward on this linear time, coming from the past and advancing to the future.

But is there an experience that the ’now’ is moving along the line of time?
Any experience of one ‘moment’ giving way to the next?
Any actual experience of one event following another?

How fast is the ‘present moment’ actually moving?

Just look at 'this moment', can you find a point where it began?

How long does the ‘now’ last?

Where does the ‘now’ start, and where does it end?

When does the ‘now’ exactly become the 'past'?

What is the ‘past’ in actual experience?

So is there actual experience of ‘time’ or thoughts about ‘time’?

Love, Kay

[Samadhi01]

Hello Kay, its good to be 'back' (back where?)

I got this when I first read your reply. Yes, its a thought appearing that says something is identifying. Its the story, thoughts. I get this. But its a sneaky situation, because conditioning keeps coming back even tough I have gone trough this exploration.
???? What exactly is it that “conditioning keeps coming back” to? Is that not just a thought?

Yes! I know.... and I knew when I was writing the answer... but how else can this exploration continue, since my responses will be out of my control (if theres no chooser of thoughts), and will be thought after thought responding your answers? .... I know this is thought too, lol.

Everything is running on automatic. If you watch a great movie and get sucked up in a good part, then zoom out, you see it’s just a movie, though for a few minutes the focus was completely on what was going on. This is also happening in what is termed 'real life' There is zooming in and out of character. Identification with the story is also part of story. Attachment to pleasure and fear of pain are also stories. There is nothing that attaches, only the story about attachment and only stories about conditioning.

Yes, I see this... thank you.

Don’t throw non dual back at me in this exploration, Zazen. That won’t benefit you in any way.

It was a legitimate question I had.

Good…because nobody likes a smart arse and I have better things to do with my time than to play games.

I never meant to be that what you are calling me. Im never meaning to offend you, and I appreciate your time in doing this guiding. I too have other things to do, so my time spent here is not offend anyone or play games. Im not that type of person. Maybe the language barrier doesn't permit me express myself in a full range of words, so sometimes my responses may come out wrong.... and yes, I know all this is thought.

There is a general assumption that there is linear time that started (if started at all) somewhere very far in the past and advances to the distant future. The present moment (now) is considered to be a very small fragment of time, or an event that is moving forward on this linear time, coming from the past and advancing to the future.

But is there an experience that the ’now’ is moving along the line of time?

No, theres just this.

Any experience of one ‘moment’ giving way to the next?

Sometimes, when identification occurs.

Any actual experience of one event following another?

Same response as previous.

How fast is the ‘present moment’ actually moving?

This is something (when identification occurs) that comes up when i talk with someone, that 'time flies'. But I also know that theres just the present moment.

Just look at 'this moment', can you find a point where it began?

No, no beginning or end, just this now.

How long does the ‘now’ last?

It doesnt last, it is just this now.

Where does the ‘now’ start, and where does it end?

No start, no end.... just this now.

When does the ‘now’ exactly become the 'past'?

It never does.... in the movie it does though.

What is the ‘past’ in actual experience?

Thought.

So is there actual experience of ‘time’ or thoughts about ‘time’?

Thoughts about time....

Thanks Kay for your continued guidance, love and blessings.

[forgetmenot]

Hello Zazen,

I got this when I first read your reply. Yes, its a thought appearing that says something is identifying. Its the story, thoughts. I get this. But its a sneaky situation, because conditioning keeps coming back even tough I have gone trough this exploration.

???? What exactly is it that “conditioning keeps coming back” to? Is that not just a thought?

Yes! I know.... and I knew when I was writing the answer... but how else can this exploration continue, since my responses will be out of my control (if theres no chooser of thoughts), and will be thought after thought responding your answers? .... I know this is thought too, lol.

So either preface your writing with…”I know this is just thought, however…….”, for the time being, so that I know that what you are writing is to answer the questions legitimately. This form of communication is limiting, as you know, and if each answer comes across as a contradiction to what is being pointed at…then I will keep questioning the responses. That is my role. My desire is to point clearly so that you can see what I am pointing to very clearly…so that you get the penny dropping moment that there is no separate self.

Don’t throw non dual back at me in this exploration, Zazen. That won’t benefit you in any way.

It was a legitimate question I had.

Okay, our wires were crossed and hopefully now they are uncrossed! :)

Again, I saw what you meant right away after reading your reply, but took the time off to go over these explorations. And yes, totally see that choosing, choice, is a reflex of thought... its thought that said: I cant imagine going around ignoring all contents, like ie 'Tomorrow I have to finish this job'. I just cant say this content is not real and ignore it. I might loose clients if I dont follow that content of the thought.
but could I control that response to you?

No, there is no ‘you’ or anyone/anything that is controlling thought, or controlling what it is apparently saying or pointing or when it appears saying what it is saying. When you did the thought exercises, I am hoping that this was clear?

Okay.Good…because nobody likes a smart arse and I have better things to do with my time than to play games.

I never meant to be that what you are calling me. Im never meaning to offend you, and I appreciate your time in doing this guiding. I too have other things to do, so my time spent here is not offend anyone or play games. Im not that type of person. Maybe the language barrier doesn't permit me express myself in a full range of words, so sometimes my responses may come out wrong.... and yes, I know all this is thought.

You did not offend me. If I were to be offended I would look to see if I could find the one that was offended and not project it back onto you, by attacking you! I take guiding seriously because I have first hand experience of what liberation looks like and feels like…and it is a beautiful gift I would like to share with others. It is beyond words.

Okay…so now we have sorted that out and understand where each is coming from…and see that we are both on the same page…just a communication glitch…let’s continue on with pointing and LOOKING. :)

But is there an experience that the ’now’ is moving along the line of time?

No, theres just this.

And what is “just THIS” exactly?

Any experience of one ‘moment’ giving way to the next?

Sometimes, when identification occurs.

Yes..but that is just a thought story and when you LOOK to see if that story is pointing to AE or to thought story…what do you find?
If you put that story aside…without thought, is there any experience of one moment giving way to the next?

And for that to be real, would mean that separation is real! Is there colour AND thought AND sound AND taste AND smell AND sensation? Are all these ‘things’ actually separate individual ‘things’? In other words, is there an actual difference between sound and thought, thought and smell, smell and colour etc or is there simply coloursmellsensationthoughttastesound (no “AND”)?

Any actual experience of one event following another?

Same response as previous.

Did you LOOK to see what it is exactly that is identifying with or as something? And did you find anyone/anything?

How fast is the ‘present moment’ actually moving?

This is something (when identification occurs) that comes up when i talk with someone, that 'time flies'. But I also know that theres just the present moment.

Yes…and when talking about “time flying” does that thought point to AE or to thoughts about thoughts?

When does the ‘now’ exactly become the 'past'?

It never does.... in the movie it does though.

The story of time seemingly appears in the dream, and is apparent evidence that separation is real. Without the idea of change and time…the idea of separation wouldn’t exist. But as actual experience….

Where is last week?
Where is yesterday?
Where is this morning?
Where is five minutes ago?
Where is one minute ago?
Where is one *second* ago?
Can you find any of these? Can you find *one second ago*?
Or can you only find *this* - *timeless*, self-aware experience?

What does ‘here and now’ actually point to? Does it point to a location and time or does it point to experience (THIS) that is always here now and is the ‘herenow’?

So is there actual experience of ‘time’ or thoughts about ‘time’?

Thoughts about time....

Yes, thoughts about time.

This is a dream analogy of how all time is contained in an instant.
In the opening instant of a dream you find the 1st person dream character speeding along a highway towards the airport, because he is late for his holiday flight, because his wife couldn't find her passport.
Now you will notice that this is just the opening instant of the dream, yet it contains a whole "history" of being a person who is an adult and is married to a woman who left her passport behind, etc. It contains "memories" of having the drama with the lost passport, and it has a whole imaginary future too, in the flight and the holiday.
Do you see the analogy that is being drawn?

Love, Kay

[Samadhi01]

Hi Kay,

Back again!

So either preface your writing with…”I know this is just thought, however…….”, for the time being, so that I know that what you are writing is to answer the questions legitimately. This form of communication is limiting, as you know, and if each answer comes across as a contradiction to what is being pointed at…then I will keep questioning the responses. That is my role. My desire is to point clearly so that you can see what I am pointing to very clearly…so that you get the penny dropping moment that there is no separate self.

Fair enough, I can do that next time.... thank you! :)

No, there is no ‘you’ or anyone/anything that is controlling thought, or controlling what it is apparently saying or pointing or when it appears saying what it is saying. When you did the thought exercises, I am hoping that this was clear?

When I redid these exercises, it helped quite a bit. Especially the choice one, with the selection of one drink, and the one moving the hand.... among other ones about observing thoughts, which I do daily anyways... so this helped drive the point more that choice is a illusion, and is part of the story. And I have notes, where I will go back and re read to revisit these topic often.

You did not offend me. If I were to be offended I would look to see if I could find the one that was offended and not project it back onto you, by attacking you! I take guiding seriously because I have first hand experience of what liberation looks like and feels like…and it is a beautiful gift I would like to share with others. It is beyond words.

Thank you, and I know this is thought, but personally I dont have expectations! lol.

No, theres just this.
And what is “just THIS” exactly?

Knowing = AE...

Yes..but that is just a thought story and when you LOOK to see if that story is pointing to AE or to thought story…what do you find?

That its pointing to thought.

If you put that story aside…without thought, is there any experience of one moment giving way to the next?

None whatsoever. I see your point...

And for that to be real, would mean that separation is real! Is there colour AND thought AND sound AND taste AND smell AND sensation? Are all these ‘things’ actually separate individual ‘things’?

No, they arent.... if they were, then it would be one moment giving way to another, but its fluid, theres just what is.

In other words, is there an actual difference between sound and thought, thought and smell, smell and colour etc or is there simply coloursmellsensationthoughttastesound (no “AND”)?

No difference, just same coloursmellsensationthoughttastesound... thank you... this is a ongoing exploration I will be checking.

Same response as previous.
Did you LOOK to see what it is exactly that is identifying with or as something? And did you find anyone/anything?

Nothing is identifying, thats just tought, part of the story. Like you said previously, theres zooming in and out of the movie...

Yes…and when talking about “time flying” does that thought point to AE or to thoughts about thoughts?

To thoughts lol.

Where is last week?

Nowhere, doesnt exist. Just thought.

Where is yesterday?

Same answer as above. Just tought.

Where is this morning?

Good one lol. Almost 'caught me'. Its nowhere, just thought.

Where is five minutes ago?

Nowhere, just thought.

Where is one minute ago?

Nada

Where is one *second* ago?

What is a second? lol.... just thought. Nowhere.

Can you find any of these? Can you find *one second ago*?
Or can you only find *this* - *timeless*, self-aware experience?

Timeless-self-aware-experience.... beautifully put. Yes, thats what is.

What does ‘here and now’ actually point to? Does it point to a location and time or does it point to experience (THIS) that is always here now and is the ‘herenow’?

It doesnt point no any location.... just this experience, herenow :)

This is a dream analogy of how all time is contained in an instant.
In the opening instant of a dream you find the 1st person dream character speeding along a highway towards the airport, because he is late for his holiday flight, because his wife couldn't find her passport.
Now you will notice that this is just the opening instant of the dream, yet it contains a whole "history" of being a person who is an adult and is married to a woman who left her passport behind, etc. It contains "memories" of having the drama with the lost passport, and it has a whole imaginary future too, in the flight and the holiday.

Do you see the analogy that is being drawn?

The life of 'Z'

[forgetmenot]

Hello Z,

Lovely post...WELCOME BACK...nice LOOKING! :)

No, there is no ‘you’ or anyone/anything that is controlling thought, or controlling what it is apparently saying or pointing or when it appears saying what it is saying. When you did the thought exercises, I am hoping that this was clear?

When I redid these exercises, it helped quite a bit. Especially the choice one, with the selection of one drink, and the one moving the hand.... among other ones about observing thoughts, which I do daily anyways... so this helped drive the point more that choice is a illusion, and is part of the story. And I have notes, where I will go back and re read to revisit these topic often.

So to answer my question…is it clear that when LOOKING happens, there is no thinker of thought found? Yes, thoughts about a thinker of thought ,and thoughts about a me who is thinking thoughts can be found…but when you LOOK can an actual thinker/author of thought be found?

A thought appears saying, “it feels like I am thinking thoughts”, what does that thought actually point to?

No, theres just this.

And what is “just THIS” exactly?

Knowing = AE...

Yes…lovely. All there is, is THS/experience, appearing exactly as it is and is labelled as actual experience (ie soundthoughtsmelltastesensationcolour) and other names ie awareness, consciousness, God, presence, experience, This, Knowing!

Yes..but that is just a thought story and when you LOOK to see if that story is pointing to AE or to thought story…what do you find?
That its pointing to thought.

If you put that story aside…without thought, is there any experience of one moment giving way to the next?

None whatsoever. I see your point...

Great!

And for that to be real, would mean that separation is real! Is there colour AND thought AND sound AND taste AND smell AND sensation? Are all these ‘things’ actually separate individual ‘things’?

No, they arent.... if they were, then it would be one moment giving way to another, but its fluid, theres just what is.

Lovely!

In other words, is there an actual difference between sound and thought, thought and smell, smell and colour etc or is there simply coloursmellsensationthoughttastesound (no “AND”)?

No difference, just same coloursmellsensationthoughttastesound... thank you... this is a ongoing exploration I will be checking.

Yes, continual LOOKING, day in and day out is a prerequisite to this exploration and it’s so called ‘outcomes’, and LOOKING needs to continue to happen after realisation happens…because a period of clarity and then confusion happens and can be quite discombobulating. There is no time-frame to how long this yo-yoing happens for, but everyone goes through it.

Where is this morning?

Good one lol. Almost 'caught me'. Its nowhere, just thought.

;) :)

This is a dream analogy of how all time is contained in an instant.
In the opening instant of a dream you find the 1st person dream character speeding along a highway towards the airport, because he is late for his holiday flight, because his wife couldn't find her passport.
Now you will notice that this is just the opening instant of the dream, yet it contains a whole "history" of being a person who is an adult and is married to a woman who left her passport behind, etc. It contains "memories" of having the drama with the lost passport, and it has a whole imaginary future too, in the flight and the holiday.
Do you see the analogy that is being drawn?

The life of 'Z'

Yes, exactly the SEEMING life of a character called Z! Does the screen that the movie is showing up on become the movie?

Okay continuing on with looking at time.

Look into the mirror throughout the day. Body image appears... notice that all that's really there are some colours, and a thought-story saying 'these colours are my body'

When you return to the mirror each time, consider whether these 'body colours' have ever appeared before.

Has this body image + story ever appeared before - or is this the only time you have ever been aware of these *exact* colours and this exact story about the body?

Can you find any previous appearances of the body? Where are they? If not how can it be known that the body has appeared before?

Is the appearance just appearing 'now' with only a thought-story claiming you've seen this body before?

Do that for today and report back what you find.

Kay

[Samadhi01]

Hi Kay, reporting back here :)

So to answer my question…is it clear that when LOOKING happens, there is no thinker of thought found? Yes, thoughts about a thinker of thought ,and thoughts about a me who is thinking thoughts can be found…but when you LOOK can an actual thinker/author of thought be found?

No, it cant be found, this is always the case when I look.

A thought appears saying, “it feels like I am thinking thoughts”, what does that thought actually point to?

Thought

Yes, continual LOOKING, day in and day out is a prerequisite to this exploration and it’s so called ‘outcomes’, and LOOKING needs to continue to happen after realisation happens…because a period of clarity and then confusion happens and can be quite discombobulating. There is no time-frame to how long this yo-yoing happens for, but everyone goes through it.

Yes, I can see how this yo-yo goes on (that is a thought) Zooming in and out of the movie, etc.

Yes, exactly the SEEMING life of a character called Z! Does the screen that the movie is showing up on become the movie?

Ah, a trick question, you got me on this one....
No it doesnt..... BUT it seems to become the movie during identification. So zooming in on the movie, identification, zooming out, just the screen.

When you return to the mirror each time, consider whether these 'body colours' have ever appeared before.

Has this body image + story ever appeared before - or is this the only time you have ever been aware of these *exact* colours and this exact story about the body?

This has to be one of the best exercises Ive done here Kay :) .... it really 'hit' me lol. And what I did, is that I applied this exercise to all experiences, not just seeing the body in the mirror... so if I was walking around the park or driving, I would apply these questions to that... and I have to say that the results have been powerful...

Answering this question: each time I look in mirror, its the only time theres those exact colors and story....

Can you find any previous appearances of the body? Where are they? If not how can it be known that the body has appeared before?

Again, very potent inquiry... because I cant find any other versions or appearances of the body (or the world, or of people or situations).... and I find that it cannot be know if the body has appeared before... mind blowinng inquiry, I could feel a release or liberation of the idea of time... applying this inquiry along with past ones, where is this morning, etc.... applying both together, wow... it erases the notion of time....

Is the appearance just appearing 'now' with only a thought-story claiming you've seen this body before?

I say yes, and also to the 'world', or my family... lol. Everything that appears, its like its brand new.... just here, this... it really gives the idea of herenow a complete result.

Thank you Kay, blessings and appreciation.

[forgetmenot]

Hey Z,

Yes, exactly the SEEMING life of a character called Z! Does the screen that the movie is showing up on become the movie?

Ah, a trick question, you got me on this one....
No it doesnt..... BUT it seems to become the movie during identification. So zooming in on the movie, identification, zooming out, just the screen.

Yes…precisely! The “seeming identification” is just part of the movie but the screen is not actually identifying with anything. If the screen identified with, say, a person showing up as the movie…when that person left the movie...then a piece of the screen would go with it! Funny idea lol

Has this body image + story ever appeared before - or is this the only time you have ever been aware of these *exact* colours and this exact story about the body?

This has to be one of the best exercises Ive done here Kay :) .... it really 'hit' me lol. And what I did, is that I applied this exercise to all experiences, not just seeing the body in the mirror... so if I was walking around the park or driving, I would apply these questions to that... and I have to say that the results have been powerful...

Wonderful! So, when you wake up in the morning…do the questions then. How is it known that you have woken up in the same bed, room, house, with the same partner etc, and that 8 hours of sleeping happened and it is now today, which followed from yesterday? Can you find any previous appearances of waking up? Where are they? If not how can it be known that waking up in the morning has appeared before?

Answering this question: each time I look in mirror, its the only time theres those exact colors and story....

Yes! I find how the illusion creates itself is simply mind blowing!

Can you find any previous appearances of the body? Where are they? If not how can it be known that the body has appeared before?

Again, very potent inquiry... because I cant find any other versions or appearances of the body (or the world, or of people or situations).... and I find that it cannot be know if the body has appeared before... mind blowinng inquiry, I could feel a release or liberation of the idea of time... applying this inquiry along with past ones, where is this morning, etc.... applying both together, wow... it erases the notion of time....

Lovely! So you have already done ‘looking at the morning’ with this inquiry. I am really happy to see that you are applying the exercise to anything and everything that suggests time and memory :) Which is everything LOL, as there is no story that doesn’t involve the idea of time and memory.

Is the appearance just appearing 'now' with only a thought-story claiming you've seen this body before?

I say yes, and also to the 'world', or my family... lol. Everything that appears, its like its brand new.... just here, this... it really gives the idea of herenow a complete result.

Nice…really nice Zazen!

I used to be a student of A Course in Miracles, and it had daily exercises to do as pointers to help see through the concept of the separate self. The following was the exercise given to see how ‘we see only the past’. You will appreciate reading this I think as you have seen so clearly that everything refers to a past, and the past is simply not known, but is a thought story appearing now.

I see only the past.
1. This idea is particularly difficult to believe at first. Yet it is the rationale for all of the preceding ones.
It is the reason why nothing that you see means anything.
It is the reason why you have given everything you see all the meaning that it has for you.
It is the reason why you do not understand anything you see.
It is the reason why your thoughts do not mean anything, and why they are like the things you see.
It is the reason why you are never upset for the reason you think.
It is the reason why you are upset because you see something that is not there.

2. Old ideas about time are very difficult to change, because everything you believe is rooted in time, and depends on your not learning these new ideas about it. Yet that is precisely why you need new ideas about time. This first time idea is not really so strange as it may sound at first.

3. Look at a cup, for example. Do you see a cup, or are you merely reviewing your past experiences of picking up a cup, be¬ing thirsty, drinking from a cup, feeling the rim of a cup against your lips, having breakfast and so on? Are not your aesthetic reactions to the cup, too, based on past experiences? How else would you know whether or not this kind of cup will break if you drop it? What do you know about this cup except what you learned in the past? You would have no idea what this cup is, except for your past learning. Do you, then, really see it?

4. Look about you. This is equally true of whatever you look at. Acknowledge this by applying the idea for today indiscrimi¬nately to whatever catches your eye. For example:
I see only the past in this pencil.
I see only the past in this shoe.
I see only the past in this hand.
I see only the past in that body.
I see only the past in that face.

5. Do not linger over any one thing in particular, but remember to omit nothing specifically. Glance briefly at each subject, and then move on to the next. Three or four practice periods, each to last a minute or so, will be enough.

___________________________

You will find the following memory exercise perhaps a little blasé now…but it is still good to do.

Past and memory go hand-in-hand as almost everybody believes that a memory thought is referring to something that has happened; that a memory thought is a different thought than a non-memory thought.

Please don’t go to thought explanation, but just let a memory be there, and look at it.

What is memory exactly?
What is the memory ‘made of’?

What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘memory’ thought?

WHEN does the memory actually appear?
How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘memory’ thought refers to something that has happened?

Then, look at a thought about the future.
What is the future thought ‘made of’?

WHEN does the future thought appear?
What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘future’ thought?
How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘future’ thought refers to something that will happen?

Then let’s compare a thought about the past and a thought about the future.
What is the EXACT difference between the thoughts about past and future?
If there is a difference, how is that difference known exactly?

Love, Kay

[Samadhi01]

Hi Kay, nice to be back

Wonderful! So, when you wake up in the morning…do the questions then. How is it known that you have woken up in the same bed, room, house, with the same partner etc, and that 8 hours of sleeping happened and it is now today, which followed from yesterday?

Its not known, there may be a thought story referring I have woken up, but that points to thought, so theres just that waking up, like its the first and only time lol.

Can you find any previous appearances of waking up?

No! lol

Where are they?

Cant be found.

If not how can it be known that waking up in the morning has appeared before?

This is the 'wow' part of this inquiry lol... And answer is it cant be known that has appeared before, lol.... Like I said before, I try to apply this to every experience..

Lovely! So you have already done ‘looking at the morning’ with this inquiry. I am really happy to see that you are applying the exercise to anything and everything that suggests time and memory :) Which is everything LOL, as there is no story that doesn’t involve the idea of time and memory.

yes, thank you thank you. This has been a 'eye opener' lol... time and memory...

...everything refers to a past, and the past is simply not known, but is a thought story appearing now.

Thank you Kay, this is a great pointer to save on my notebook :)..... I see this more clear every time I do this time exercise.

-------

I see only the past.

Everything you believe is rooted in time

Thank you for sharing these ACIM quotes... Ill revisit these, they really help.
--------

What is memory exactly? What is the memory ‘made of’?

Its thought, and it seems to be made of time.

What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘memory’ thought?

No difference, both are thoughts. But memory thought is rooted in time, or it 'seems' that way.

WHEN does the memory actually appear?

Now, in the HereNow.

How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘memory’ thought refers to something that has happened?

Its not known. It gives the impression that something happened, during that brief identification, but when you look at it, its just thought.

Then, look at a thought about the future.
What is the future thought ‘made of’?

Its made out of a idea of time.

WHEN does the future thought appear?

In the HereNow

What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘future’ thought?

None, they are both thought.

How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘future’ thought refers to something that will happen?

Its not known, that would be a thought-story, or AE of thought.

Then let’s compare a thought about the past and a thought about the future.
What is the EXACT difference between the thoughts about past and future?

Lol, no difference, both just thoughts, that seem to give a idea of time.

If there is a difference, how is that difference known exactly?

No difference, so its not known.

Thank you Kay, god bless :)

[forgetmenot]

Hello Zazen,

Wonderful! So, when you wake up in the morning…do the questions then. How is it known that you have woken up in the same bed, room, house, with the same partner etc, and that 8 hours of sleeping happened and it is now today, which followed from yesterday?

Its not known, there may be a thought story referring I have woken up, but that points to thought, so theres just that waking up, like its the first and only time lol.

Yes…when that hits home, it’s quite astounding. It seems that life is one big groundhog day, but that is only a thought story. Without thought, how can it possibly be known that everything has happened before? It can’t!

Can you find any previous appearances of waking up?

No! lol

So you can also now see the underpinning ideas (ie thoughts) of/about death!

If not how can it be known that waking up in the morning has appeared before?

This is the 'wow' part of this inquiry lol... And answer is it cant be known that has appeared before, lol.... Like I said before, I try to apply this to every experience..

This is such fun to play with, isn’t it. In a night time dream, what came first the mountain or the baby?

What is memory exactly? What is the memory ‘made of’?

Its thought, and it seems to be made of time.

It is a thought ABOUT time...it can’t be made OF time – there is no such thing as time. :)

What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘memory’ thought?

No difference, both are thoughts. But memory thought is rooted in time, or it 'seems' that way.

I want you to look at your response. Something is not clear. There is no such thing as a ‘memory’ thought. And how can a thought be rooted in time. Does time actually exist?

A thought is a thought whether it is labelled a memory thought, general thought, judgemental thought, happy thought, mean thought, sad thought and so on. No matter how the thought is labelled, it does not change what the thought is. Is anything actually labelling them? Are these types of thoughts any different to any other thought, like thoughts about the weather, say? The actual experience of thought isn't any different just because the content of the thought is different.

And is a thought actually what a thought says it is? Is a thought how it describes itself as? What is a thought?

How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘memory’ thought refers to something that has happened?

Its not known. It gives the impression that something happened, during that brief identification, but when you look at it, its just thought.

Yes :)

Then, look at a thought about the future.
What is the future thought ‘made of’?

Its made out of a idea of time.

It’s simply a thought. How is a thought made out of an idea. An idea is a thought!

Then let’s compare a thought about the past and a thought about the future.
What is the EXACT difference between the thoughts about past and future?

Lol, no difference, both just thoughts, that seem to give a idea of time.

Yes…exactly. They are both thoughts that seem to point to TIME…but time is an idea, a concept! And concepts are not a problems...they only become one if there is a belief that concepts are real.

If there is a difference, how is that difference known exactly?

No difference, so its not known.

And if it SEEMS as if a difference is known, then that is simply an appearing thought suggesting this!

Kay

[Samadhi01]

Hi Kay :) nice to be here again

Yes…when that hits home, it’s quite astounding. It seems that life is one big groundhog day, but that is only a thought story. Without thought, how can it possibly be known that everything has happened before? It can’t!

Lol.... groundhog day! I loved that movie BTW.... yes, you hit in the head with that name lol... I guess this is the big cosmic joke!

This is such fun to play with, isn’t it.

120% :)

In a night time dream, what came first the mountain or the baby?

You got me on this one... but I will see neither came first.

It is a thought ABOUT time...it can’t be made OF time – there is no such thing as time. :)

Yes, thank you.... to be honest, I wasnt sure answering that one.

I want you to look at your response. Something is not clear. There is no such thing as a ‘memory’ thought. And how can a thought be rooted in time. Does time actually exist?

This is another example of the language barrier.... but I see what you mean.... in reality there's no difference between a thought and memory thought.... both are thoughts....My response of 'memory thought is rooted in time, or it 'seems' that way.' was just thought there.

A thought is a thought whether it is labelled a memory thought, general thought, judgemental thought, happy thought, mean thought, sad thought and so on. No matter how the thought is labelled, it does not change what the thought is. Is anything actually labelling them? Are these types of thoughts any different to any other thought, like thoughts about the weather, say? The actual experience of thought isn't any different just because the content of the thought is different.

Thank you very much.... I see this now.

And is a thought actually what a thought says it is? Is a thought how it describes itself as? What is a thought?

No, thought is just a container, so the content is not what it says, or describes itself as. What is a thought? In itself its nothing, its a momentary manifestation of knowing, into something known... a object.

It’s simply a thought. How is a thought made out of an idea. An idea is a thought!

Got it.... thought is thought.

And if it SEEMS as if a difference is known, then that is simply an appearing thought suggesting this!

Beautiful.

Thank you Kay :)

[forgetmenot]

Hey Z,

In a night time dream, what came first the mountain or the baby?

You got me on this one... but I will see neither came first.

Yes, exactly. Is a mountain always an appearance in ‘life’ when there is a baby or vice versa? No. It harks back to something that is supposedly known from a past! That "I drove past that mountain every day before my child was born". Where is this past exactly? It is only ever appearing in this moment, so to speak. It’s like asking which came first…the chicken or the egg.

It is a thought ABOUT time...it can’t be made OF time – there is no such thing as time. :)

Yes, thank you.... to be honest, I wasnt sure answering that one.

Does time have a flavour, smell, feel, colour or taste? Nope. It’s pie in the sky stuff ie thought fluff lol

A thought is a thought whether it is labelled a memory thought, general thought, judgemental thought, happy thought, mean thought, sad thought and so on. No matter how the thought is labelled, it does not change what the thought is. Is anything actually labelling them? Are these types of thoughts any different to any other thought, like thoughts about the weather, say? The actual experience of thought isn't any different just because the content of the thought is different.

Thank you very much.... I see this now.

It is only a thought that suggests that thoughts are different because of their content. But the content of thought is simply more thought!

And if it SEEMS as if a difference is known, then that is simply an appearing thought suggesting this!

Beautiful.

How would what IS/THIS be different to what it IS/THIS? It would like saying a chameleon has become something different because it changes its colour. It still remains a chameleon no matter how many times it changes colour!

Is there anything that you need clarified...anything you are not clear about?

Can you say with 100% certainty that you have realised that there is no separate self as it is thought to be?

If so, how does it feel to realise this?

And has anything changed?

And what hasn’t changed?

What is the main difference, if any, from before this exploration started?

Is seeking still going on?

Love, Kay

[Samadhi01]

Hi Kay :)

Does time have a flavour, smell, feel, colour or taste? Nope. It’s pie in the sky stuff ie thought fluff lol

Lol, yes.... thank you. I see this, its being really helpful when you point me to where does a particular perception points to.

It is only a thought that suggests that thoughts are different because of their content. But the content of thought is simply more thought!

Yes, thank you ;) Thought is thought.

How would what IS/THIS be different to what it IS/THIS? It would like saying a chameleon has become something different because it changes its colour. It still remains a chameleon no matter how many times it changes colour!

Love this example of the chameleon changing color, and it is always the chameleon. So any appearing difference is a thought saying that because its always the chameleon. Rupert Spira has a example also of the screen, that the images change, but the screen is the same, and really the images are the screen, a modulation of the screen.... like the chamelon modulating its color but its always the chameleon! lol

Is there anything that you need clarified...anything you are not clear about?

To be honest, theres still the yo-yo effect, zooming in and out of the movie thats going on, then some identification occurs, like for example the exercise we did about being others, how do I know theres others, etc, this happens during identification, but then I remember what we explored here and I read trough some of the notes I have collected, and the confusion ends. Still it seems very real sometimes, dealing with others, and getting sucked in their narratives, and possible outcomes, etc, but then I read amd remember, even that where was 5 minutes ago? things like that... etc... keeping these notes and reading them have helped a lot.

Can you say with 100% certainty that you have realised that there is no separate self as it is thought to be?

I can, more and more... But then the yo-yoing kicks in, and that makes me think that maybe this realization is not complete, or maybe this is as good as it gets lol and theres a expectation there that this realization has to have a certain look and feel to it....I know this is thought talking, but wanted to say this.

If so, how does it feel to realise this?

When theres no yo-yoing, its quite remarkable, and laughable lol.... its a joke on me, on everything lol. Its wonderful to be honest.

And has anything changed?

Yes, maybe theres more relaxation, letting this 'life' flow by... since theres no doer, no chooser. And ive become more easy going or light hearted, taking things as a constant joke, or groundhog day lol, where Im just playing along lol... playing make-believe lol... along with characters on the stage.

And what hasn’t changed?

Experience... its like life goes on, the same as before, but now you are playing along lol, like you know the inside joke.

What is the main difference, if any, from before this exploration started?

Thought.... that was (and maybe still is) a big hurdle. Not believing in thought. At the start, I had these ideas, all thoughts, these worries, now I see there we all just thoughts, so seeing trough thought is the main difference before I came to LU.

Is seeking still going on?

Less and less. I still like to read quotes here and there, as a way of keeping me on track. I also meditate. But the energy or angst of trying to realize is not the same. Its more relaxed, more in the HereNow...

Much thanks Kay, love back