Jens freedom

[Jenisfree]

Hello Vivien,

If the ‘now’ is an overlay, just a construct, then how can it be always? How can it be last eternally?

Right, it can’t. I should not have used the word eternally, as this is just giving ‘now’ another name, another definition. The now is nothing. But even saying “nothing” is defining it. It is very hard to not use words in trying to describe, but essentially, now is beyond words. It is not definable, graspable, able to be confined, able to be put in a box, or able to trap, see, locate etc. It’s not definable by a human mind.

What is the AE of the now being always?

There is not one

What is the AE of the now being ‘eternally’?

There is not one. Again, bad word that is only another overlay....but on……what?? This is where I feel so frustrated

What is the AE of ‘eternity’?

I do not know.

What is it that is awareing eternally?

I don't know.

How is ‘aware-ing eternally’ experienced?

I don’t know how to provide an answer for this.

V: What is the actual experience of 'now' or 'the present moment'?
J: Awaring
Awaring??
AE is: image/colour, sensation, sound, smell, taste, thought
What is the AE of awarening? - is it an image/colour, sensation, sound, smell, taste or thought?

No, I know that awaring is not the actual experience of the now. This was a mistake to say this.

What is the AE of ‘now’ or ‘the present moment’? – is it an image/colour, sensation, sound, smell, taste or thought?
Time and the now does not exist.
So time and now doesn’t exist, but ‘eternity’ does?

No, eternity doesn’t either- none of it exists. I’m getting caught up in words/semantics. And I have no idea where to go from here with it.

And what about ‘awaring eternally’?

No, not even awaring or eternity exists. I feel at the end of the line.LIke I went in a big loop. I don’t have any idea where to go from here, Vivien. There is nothing more that I can see, Other than what is “here” right before me. Colors, shapes, images, sensations, sounds, tastes, light, overlays upon overlays, thoughtawaring; none of which are true. All of the things we’ve had a conversation about that are just concepts. I know that time is an illusion. I know that there never was a self. It’s as if there are just no more answers. I don’t know the answers, because the answers don’t come from “me”, or, perhaps just (blank) is the answer. It’s like there is nothing to find. At all. I don’t know the answers. My direct experience is that I do not know.
Love,
Jen

[Vivien]

Hi Jen,

I feel at the end of the line.LIke I went in a big loop. I don’t have any idea where to go from here, Vivien. There is nothing more that I can see, Other than what is “here” right before me.

And how do you feel about this?

Here are some questions to see if is there anything that is not completely clear. Please answer what's true for you right now, rather than any sort of 'ideal' answer.

Has it been seen that there has never been an ‘I’ that could control or own life or anything?
Is there any chooser or decider of any kind?
Is there an ‘experiencer’?
Is there a ‘thinker’?

Is there a ‘doer’ of any kind which performs activities and movements?
Is there an 'I' of any kind whatsoever that could be responsible for anything at all?
Do others have responsibilities?

Is there a 'you' that started this investigation?
Has there ever been a 'you' doing anything?

Any confusion at all or anything you would like to address?

Vivien

[Jenisfree]

Dear Vivien,
Here are my most recent replies:

J: I feel at the end of the line.LIke I went in a big loop. I don’t have any idea where to go from here, Vivien. There is nothing more that I can see, Other than what is “here” right before me.

V: And how do you feel about this?

First I would like to say that “loop” is an inaccurate description of what I feel, after reviewing what I said. The feeling I have is one of relief, of peace and a great reduction in fear. Yes, things come up (emotions, problems, etc) and always will in the “story”, but I don’t cling to anything really at all anymore. Not people, or circumstances, or things. It’s like there is no importance or reality to any of it, because none of it, including me is real or true.
I also feel overwhelming gratitude to you, for your time, your energy, and dedication to working with me, and asking me just the right questions; questions that no one has ever asked that pointed toward this opening, and challenged me to look and look and look again. ( And I do know that there is not really a you or a me. 😊)

I feel unburdened and free. Free to just live as life is revealed to me.

Here are some questions to see if is there anything that is not completely clear. Please answer what's true for you right now, rather than any sort of 'ideal' answer.

Has it been seen that there has never been an ‘I’ that could control or own life or anything?

Yes.

Is there any chooser or decider of any kind?

No.

Is there an ‘experiencer’?

No.

Is there a ‘thinker’?

No.

Is there a ‘doer’ of any kind which performs activities and movements?

No.

Is there an 'I' of any kind whatsoever that could be responsible for anything at all?

No.

Do others have responsibilities?

No.

Is there a 'you' that started this investigation?

No.

Has there ever been a 'you' doing anything?

No.

Any confusion at all or anything you would like to address?

Yes. Have I gone through the gateless gate?
If I have not, then I want to keep going. I said I would never quit. If I have not, then I need to keep looking.

Love,
Jen

[Vivien]

Hi Jen,

The feeling I have is one of relief, of peace and a great reduction in fear. Yes, things come up (emotions, problems, etc) and always will in the “story”, but I don’t cling to anything really at all anymore. Not people, or circumstances, or things. It’s like there is no importance or reality to any of it, because none of it, including me is real or true.

It's nice to hear that :)

Have I gone through the gateless gate?
If I have not, then I want to keep going. I said I would never quit. If I have not, then I need to keep looking.

The ‘gateless gate’ is about seeing the illusion of the self. It’s seeing that there has never been a self, or a doer or a controller in any shape or form. So then the answer is: yes. Here at LU we guide to seeing through the self. But this is the first step of awakening. As I mentioned before, reactions and even the sense of self will still arise due to a life-time of conditionings. But with each looking some aspects of it falls away. This falling away, or un-learning process can last at the end of the organism. Probably your sessions with the consellor will be more effective, as the self is no more in the way.

To make sure that didn’t miss anything, I’ll ask you some further questions and other guides will look at it. So we can finish here, but if you want to we can look at some other related topics (but we don’t have to), like how the ‘outside’ world is constructed, before asking the final questions.

Please let me know how you decide.

Vivien

[Jenisfree]

Hello Vivien,

The ‘gateless gate’ is about seeing the illusion of the self. It’s seeing that there has never been a self, or a doer or a controller in any shape or form. So then the answer is: yes. Here at LU we guide to seeing through the self. But this is the first step of awakening. As I mentioned before, reactions and even the sense of self will still arise due to a life-time of conditionings. But with each looking some aspects of it falls away. This falling away, or un-learning process can last at the end of the organism. Probably your sessions with the consellor will be more effective, as the self is no more in the way.

I am so very pleased and thankful to you for your guidance to this point. And, so very thankful for LU and what their mission is. I understand fully that I am still at the beginning of the un-learning process, and that this work can and often does last through the end. I do want to continue, and un-learn, and work toward greater and greater clarity in the awakening process. I am still at motivation 11, and want to do as much as is possible.

To make sure that didn’t miss anything, I’ll ask you some further questions and other guides will look at it. So we can finish here, but if you want to we can look at some other related topics (but we don’t have to), like how the ‘outside’ world is constructed, before asking the final questions.

Yes, Vivien, I would very much like to continue with related topics, about the outside world, and whatever you see as a guide that could point me still further. I am looking forward to your response. I am forever grateful.
love,
Jen

[Vivien]

Hi Jen,

I would very much like to continue with related topics, about the outside world, and whatever you see as a guide that could point me still further. I am looking forward to your response. I am forever grateful.

You’re very welcome :)

From now on, I might give you questions that you’ve investigated before. So there might be some repetition. But nevertheless, please always LOOK AFRESH, never rely on memory of previous looking. All right?

I would like ask you to sit quietly and close your eyes and just listen to the sounds for a few minutes that can be heard both inside and outside of the room. Really hear them.

Tell me ONE sound that you heard when doing this? (Make sure it is a sound that you will be able to hear again for part 2 of this exercise).

Vivien

[Jenisfree]

Good morning, Vivien!
I am happy to still be working with you. :). Yes, I will look afresh with all questions.

Tell me ONE sound that you heard when doing this?

Traffic.

Love,
Jen

[Vivien]

Hi Jen,
Great. Now please repeat the exercise and tell me:

Without thought, how is it known that the sound heard was the "sound of the ‘traffic”?
In other words, what is it that suggest the sound was a traffic?

What is the actual experience (AE) of hearing ‘sound of ‘traffic?

Is there hearing + the sound?

Vivien

[Jenisfree]

Hi Vivien,

Without thought, how is it known that the sound heard was the "sound of the ‘traffic”?

Oh dear. It isn’t. My original answer of “traffic” is a good example of how I so easily fall right back into selfing. My “brain” wanted to define it, characterize it and call it by another name of “traffic”.
There is no way to “know” that the sound is traffic without thought or the construct “traffic”. It's just a label.

In other words, what is it that suggest the sound was a traffic?

The habit of thought and what I have been taught that ‘traffic” sounds like. All of the associations of “traffic” in the story, that I've "known" before.

What is the actual experience (AE) of hearing ‘sound of ‘traffic?

There is no actual of experience of it but just one sound, or hearing. I did the exercise many times over and when it is done with pure looking, and no overlays, all that is there is hearing sound. So I guess you could say my answer evolved with your following questions.

Is there hearing + the sound?

No, they are both the same thing. They are both one.


This is a good exercise for me to see just how deeply entrenched this organism is in selfing. But now being able to see it, with looking and seeing with direct experience is so eye-opening. But I can see how easily I fall back into selfing and forget the tools of looking. I need to keep looking and looking again and again.....

Thank you for sticking with me, Vivien! :)

Love
Jen

[Vivien]

Hi Jen,

Thank you for sticking with me, Vivien! :)

You’re very welcome :) You did a nice looking.

Let’s try the following experiment to help make what is being pointed at, clearer.
We are looking at the raw experience labelled as sound and ignoring the thought ABOUT what the sound is as described by thought.

For this experiment you will need to sit yourself near a clock that has an audible second hand. If you don’t have a ticking clock, then here is a link to a clock on Youtube. Do this experiment several times.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=al3Xt8YnGE0

Take in a couple of deep breaths and close your eyes.

Listen to the sound. “Tick tock tick tock tick tock tick tock”

Focus on the tick tock. Attune to the sound itself. IGNORE all thoughts and mental images about what seems to be creating the sound.

Try to find the clock.

Going just by the tick tock sound, do you find a clock present?
Is there any direct/actual experience of a clock in the sound?
Does the sound come self-labelled as originating from the clock?
Do you find a clock hidden in the sound?
Do you find a clock beyond the sound?
In your direct/actual experience of the sound, do you find any evidence that the sound is caused by a clock?
What do you find?

Allow your eyes to open.

Were you able to establish that in your direct/actual experience of the tick tock sound, that there was a clock?

Vivien

[Jenisfree]

Hello Vivien,
Here is my response.

Going just by the tick tock sound, do you find a clock present?

No

Is there any direct/actual experience of a clock in the sound?

No

Does the sound come self-labelled as originating from the clock?

Not at all

Do you find a clock hidden in the sound?

No

Do you find a clock beyond the sound?

No

In your direct/actual experience of the sound, do you find any evidence that the sound is caused by a clock?

No
What do you find?
I ended up doing this exercise two ways.
I am not sure if I was supposed to do this exercise whereby I was ONLY able to hear the clock, so the first time I did it on my back patio. Although I was focused only on the sound of the clock, I was able to hear other “sounds” while doing the exercise. What I found was that the clock sound just “blended” in with the other sounds I was hearing. Other things I could hear (for example “outdoor sounds” ) themselves had a rhythm similar to the clock sound. The clock just seemed to “fit in” with or be a “part of the whole” of the other sounds, with no distinction of it being separate. It became “sound”. My direct experience had nothing at all to do with anything labelled "clock"

So because I was not sure if I should isolate the "tick tock", I put on headphones so could only hear this sound. Again, it seemed to "blend in" with internal "sounds" of heart beat, breathing, etc. Again, nothing to do with "clock"

Allow your eyes to open.

Were you able to establish that in your direct/actual experience of the tick tock sound, that there was a clock?
None whatsoever. In the two ways that I did the exercise, it was all hearing.

Love,
Jen

[Vivien]

Hi Jen,

Nice looking.

Although I was focused only on the sound of the clock, I was able to hear other “sounds” while doing the exercise. What I found was that the clock sound just “blended” in with the other sounds I was hearing. Other things I could hear (for example “outdoor sounds” )

And how many sounds where present?
Can you see that only thoughts divide up sound into the sounds of a ‘clock’ and the ‘outdoor sounds’, but actually there is only sound (singular) without any division?

Let’s continue with the clock and try to find a hearer...if sound is actually heard.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=al3Xt8YnGE0

Sit quietly and take in a few deep breaths to let the dust settle and then focus on the experience of the tick tock sound. Set aside ALL thoughts, images, ideas throughout this experiment and just focus on the sound itself.

In 'hearing' can anything be found other than tick tock – AE of sound?
Can what is doing the hearing be found? Or is there only sound?
Is there a dividing line between ‘hearer’ AND sound? Can a ‘hearer’ be directly experienced?
What do you find?

Can a 'hearer' be found in 'what is being heard’? In other words, in your direct (actual) experience is there a hearer AND sound, or is there only AE of sound?

Can an INHERENT HEARER be found, or it is only thought that suggests that there is a hearer AND sound?

Are you ever aware of two experiences or more at 'any given time'? When sound shows up, is there a 'sound experience' and a 'knowing of sound' experience? If not, then how can the sound be known through hearing?

Also, try to locate the sensation that is seemingly being the one (the hearer) who is doing the hearing (the sense of a hearer). And investigate the sensation itself if it is really the hearer. Let me know what you find.

Vivien

[Jenisfree]

Dear Vivien,

And how many sounds where present?

Just one

Can you see that only thoughts divide up sound into the sounds of a ‘clock’ and the ‘outdoor sounds’, but actually there is only sound (singular) without any division?”

Yes I can see this. It is all “sound”

Let’s continue with the clock and try to find a hearer...if sound is actually heard.

In 'hearing' can anything be found other than tick tock – AE of sound?

No

Can what is doing the hearing be found? Or is there only sound?

They are one-hearer and heard.

Is there a dividing line between ‘hearer’ AND sound? Can a ‘hearer’ be directly experienced?

No

What do you find?

They are the same. Hearer and heard.

Can a 'hearer' be found in 'what is being heard’? In other words, in your direct (actual) experience is there a hearer AND sound, or is there only AE of sound?

No.

Can an INHERENT HEARER be found, or it is only thought that suggests that there is a hearer AND sound?

It is just thought, because “they” are the same thing.

Are you ever aware of two experiences or more at 'any given time'? When sound shows up, is there a 'sound experience' and a 'knowing of sound' experience? If not, then how can the sound be known through hearing?

No.

Also, try to locate the sensation that is seemingly being the one (the hearer) who is doing the hearing (the sense of a hearer). And investigate the sensation itself if it is really the hearer. Let me know what you find.
.

I see it. The hearer and what is being heard are the same. The taster is the tasted. The feeler is the felt, the seer is the seen. This is why IT is all ONE. "I" am "IT" and "IT" is "ME". ALL of IT. I see it, Vivien!


Love

[Vivien]

Hi Jen,

Nice looking.

Now let’s start to investigate the visual image.

Have a look at an apple. If you have a ‘real’ apple, you can use it for this exercise (or any other fruit will do).



When looking at an apple, there's colour; a thought saying ‘apple’; and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple."
What is known for sure? Colour is known and thoughts are known.

What about the content of thoughts, what they describe?
Actual experience does not refer to thoughts ABOUT something…because that is only just more thought. Actual experience is sound, thought, colour, smell, taste, sensation.

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?
Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT can't be found in actual experience.

Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known
Colour labelled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known

However, is an apple actually known?

Vivien

[Jenisfree]

Hello Vivien!

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?

Only color and a thought about “apple”.

Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

No

While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT can't be found in actual experience.

Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known
Colour labelled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known

However, is an apple actually known?

No, apple is not known. I did the looking with my coffee cup as well, and find the same thing. It seems anything that has been labelled-'whatever"-cannot be known as its “name”.
Love,
Jen