West Cork Ireland- asking for Kay

[forgetmenot]

Hey Ado,

Ps I'm up visiting my Mum and family in Bray for a few days so only using my smart phone to post and having problems using the quote function properly...sorry about that

Well the consequence for not using the quote function is that I want you to jump up and down on one foot while rubbing your head! (laughing). No worries…using quote function on phone or tablet is just about impossible!

Without thought there is only a leaden sensation in the pit of my stomach...it's thought that automatically assumes that sensation is fear.

Well thought can’t assume anything! :) Does thought automatically assume that the sensation is fear? Does thought know anything? Can is actually assume?

Does the sensation itself suggest in any way that it is ‘leaden’?

The sensation that is in the pit of my stomach is definitely more intense and it is definitely just thought that assumes and labels it as fear. Ignoring thought completely and they are just two slightly different sensations from different parts of the body. There is essentially no difference they are both simply sensation.

”There is essentially no difference they are both simply sensation” - yes..nice :)

So going back to the following exercise:-

Thought says that the foot is ‘down there’. So presumably you are above your foot. Where are you? Sit quietly, close your eyes, take a few breaths and locate where you feel yourself to be. Locate yourself vertically in the body, horizontally to the left or right, and depth, how far in. Feel how big you are, where you reside. Then point with a finger to ‘you’. Open your eyes, where is your finger pointing?

Where you pointed to ie heart/solar plexus area, is where sensations were seemingly felt. Are those sensations a sensation of a self? Do those sensations speak of a self at all, or are they simply sensations.



Okay…you were probably hoping that I would forget about the thought exercise…but bad luck…I haven’t! :)

Look carefully when doing this exercise and do it several times if necessary. Please answer each question individually.

Sit quietly for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts. Just let them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear, without you doing anything at all.

Where are they coming from and going to?

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?
Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?
Can you predict your next thought?

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?
Can you stop thinking a thought in the middle?

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence. Or is it just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that "one thought follows another thought"?

Kay

[Clashnacrona]

Hi Kay,

I didn't get to do the thought exercise yet as I've come down with a bug and was in bed most of the day...I'll hopefully be feeling better in the morning and I'll look at it then.

Regards

Ado

[forgetmenot]

No worries....take care of yourself first, then do the thought exercise :)

Kay

[Clashnacrona]

Hi Kay,

I'm feeling a lot better today so I sat down for 30 mins and did the thought exercise again. Before I go into that I think its worth mentioning an experience that happened while having coffee with my brother earlier today. At first I really just seemed to notice his hands and fingers as if I'd never noticed them before and then as I looked at his face and for a couple of seconds it was as if a veil was lifted briefly and I saw his face for the first time almost as if “I” wasn't there and I saw his face for the first time without my mind and perceptions getting in the way. I know it was only an experience but it seemed like I was being given a preview of the reality that's always there when the illusion of self drops.



Does the sensation itself suggest in any way that it is ‘leaden’?

No it is only thought that labels it as leaden.

Where are they coming from and going to?

They seem to be just there and then they're not there as long as “I” don't follow them.

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

Not that I can see.

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

No.

Can you predict your next thought?
As long as I'm totally ignoring thoughts they just appear by themselves.



Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?

No I can't. The mind tells me I can pick and choose thoughts but that is an illusion that happens if the mind follows a thread of thoughts. Once thoughts are completely ignored,which I'm still finding very difficult, there is no possible way to select from a range of thoughts and only have pleasant thoughts.

Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?

I have no control over what thoughts arise as long as I ignore them. I cannot choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts.

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

No.

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

No.

Can you stop thinking a thought in the middle?

I can only choose to ignore them I have no control over their content and I can't stop a thought in the middle.

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence. Or is it just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that "one thought follows another thought"

There only seems to be an organised sequence when thoughts are not ignored and a train of thought is followed by the mind. In that instance thought tells me that “I” am creating the sequence when in fact the mind had chosen to follow a thread of thought it likes. When thoughts are completely ignored they seem to have a life of their own and there is no logical order whatsoever. There are the base, known, first, necessary, thoughts like “what clothes will I wear today” or “what will I cook for dinner” or “what route will I drive to work today” . It's the 1001 other unnecessary thoughts that seem to create the illusion of a self creating them. It's those extra layered thoughts that seem to constantly be trying to entice the pure experience of reality into a false sense of self.
Not sure if that makes any sense.

All the best

Ado

[forgetmenot]

Hello Ado,

I'm feeling a lot better today so I sat down for 30 mins and did the thought exercise again. Before I go into that I think its worth mentioning an experience that happened while having coffee with my brother earlier today. At first I really just seemed to notice his hands and fingers as if I'd never noticed them before and then as I looked at his face and for a couple of seconds it was as if a veil was lifted briefly and I saw his face for the first time almost as if “I” wasn't there and I saw his face for the first time without my mind and perceptions getting in the way. I know it was only an experience but it seemed like I was being given a preview of the reality that's always there when the illusion of self drops.

This is an expectation…that the illusory self drops. Where does it drop to? The idea that there is an illusory self is the illusion. How can something that doesn’t exist drop? What happens is that your perception changes…nothing more.

It is like the idea of Santa Claus. When you found out that he didn’t exist…did anything really change? All that changed was your perception about Santa, who he is and what he does and that you knew he was a character and was not real. Christmas still came and went, Santa was seen in malls and on street corners, snow still fell (depending on where you live), carols were still sung, families still got together and ate and shared gifts. Why would seeing through the illusory self ie the character called Ado be any different?

Where are they coming from and going to?

They seem to be just there and then they're not there as long as “I” don't follow them.

How does the word/label/thought “I” follow other thoughts? Because that is all “I” is…it is simply a label. What does the label “I” point to? Does it point to taste, sound, thought, smell, sensation or thought?

Putting the word I in inverted commas doesn’t mean anything. You’re still saying that there is an I that is doing something.

So, do you have any choice, whatsoever, about what you're aware of? If not, then how can there be a doership? So, if you think that you can choose and do…let's have a very good LOOK and see:

If thoughts say, "I can change what I'm aware of by closing my eyes", and suddenly eyes seem to close, and you are aware of only colour black.
Did you REALLY have any choice about being aware of all of that?
Did you have any choice about being aware of the thoughts, or the apparent closing of eyes, or the colour black?
Could you have chosen not to have thoughts about closing eyes?
Could you have chosen for the colour to be green instead?
If you can't choose what you're aware of, then what else is there to choose?

Can you predict your next thought?

As long as I'm totally ignoring thoughts they just appear by themselves.

Is not “As long as I'm totally ignoring thoughts they just appear by themselves” simply a thought as well? Can you find a thinker of thought in the thought itself? Can you find the ignorer of thought in the thought itself?

How can you ignore thoughts exactly? Where is this “I” exactly that is ignoring thoughts? I want you to sit quietly for 5 minutes and see if you can ignore thoughts
for that time. Let me know how you go.

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?

No I can't. The mind tells me I can pick and choose thoughts but that is an illusion that happens if the mind follows a thread of thoughts. Once thoughts are completely ignored,which I'm still finding very difficult, there is no possible way to select from a range of thoughts and only have pleasant thoughts.

Where exactly is this ‘mind’? What is the AE of ‘mind’?

What exactly is it that wants to ignore thoughts? Have you been able to find/see a thinker of thought in all of the thought exercises you have done? If you are not the thinker or controller of thought..then how can thought possibly be ignored?

Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?

I have no control over what thoughts arise as long as I ignore them. I cannot choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts.

Are you saying that if you don’t ignore them, then you have control over them? Tell me how you control them exactly? I would like a step by step description on how you control thoughts.

How do you know what thought is going to appear next? I would like for you to tell me how you are aware of what thought is going to appear, without it appearing for you to be aware of?

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

No.

Then how can they be controlled?

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

No.

Again…how can they be controlled or ignored then?

Can you stop thinking a thought in the middle?

I can only choose to ignore them I have no control over their content and I can't stop a thought in the middle.

And how do you choose to ignore them…since they have already appeared?

Where exactly is the middle of a thought? Where does one thought end and another begin?

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence. Or is it just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that "one thought follows another thought"

There only seems to be an organised sequence when thoughts are not ignored and a train of thought is followed by the mind. In that instance thought tells me that “I” am creating the sequence when in fact the mind had chosen to follow a thread of thought it likes. When thoughts are completely ignored they seem to have a life of their own and there is no logical order whatsoever.

So how are thoughts ignored if they arise and subside on their own? Are they not already awared?

There are the base, known, first, necessary, thoughts like “what clothes will I wear today” or “what will I cook for dinner” or “what route will I drive to work today” . It's the 1001 other unnecessary thoughts that seem to create the illusion of a self creating them. It's those extra layered thoughts that seem to constantly be trying to entice the pure experience of reality into a false sense of self.
Not sure if that makes any sense.

There is no hierarchy of thoughts. One thought is not more important than another. Thought is NOT the catalyst for decisions, choices, or actions. We will look at that shortly. But first we make sure the nature of thought is seen clearly.

Kay

[Clashnacrona]

Hi Kay,

I spoke to soon re that flu bug as I am completely floored today and had to pull in on the side of the road to sleep on the 4 hour drive down from my Mum's place. I have just picked up my girls for the weekend so I'll have a look at your questions tomorrow.

All the best

Ado

[forgetmenot]

Hi Ado,

Sounds like there is a lot going on, as well as being ill. Take a couple of days and don't stress about the questions.

Kay

[Clashnacrona]

Hi Kay,

Below are my responses to your questions. I have been finding my girls quite challenging this weekend so taking time out to respond to your questions while they watch a film downstairs is a welcome break.

How does the word/label/thought “I” follow other thoughts? Because that is all “I” is…it is simply a label. What does the label “I” point to? Does it point to taste, sound, thought, smell, sensation or thought?

Yes I can see that I is just another thought/label/word. The label I doesn’t point to taste sound smell sensation or thought. As I sit here in the moment all that there is is sound (traffic, cistern dripping from the toilet next door, sensation (warmth in my legs and the softness of the bed under my legs and backside, the pressure of my back against the pillow behind me), smell (very faint musty smell in the air), taste (taste of crisps I had with a sandwich earlier on), and thought( I am typing on my laptop). In this moment there doesn’t seem to be an I until thought tells there is.
So the thought I is just another thought and can’t possible follow any thoughts as it is just one of many thoughts arising and falling.

If thoughts say, "I can change what I'm aware of by closing my eyes", and suddenly eyes seem to close, and you are aware of only colour black.
Did you REALLY have any choice about being aware of all of that?

No.

Did you have any choice about being aware of the thoughts, or the apparent closing of eyes, or the colour black?

No as you say they are all simply there in awareness.

Could you have chosen not to have thoughts about closing eyes?

No.

Could you have chosen for the colour to be green instead?

No the colour black is just there that is a fact and can’t be chosen.

If you can't choose what you're aware of, then what else is there to choose?

I can’t seem to choose what I’m aware of so consequently there musn't be any choice with anything.

Is not “As long as I'm totally ignoring thoughts they just appear by themselves” simply a thought as well? Can you find a thinker of thought in the thought itself? Can you find the ignorer of thought in the thought itself?

There is no thinker of thought in thought itself it is just thought that tells me there is a thinker there. And also there can be no ignorer of thought in thought itself again I can see that that is also just another thought.

How can you ignore thoughts exactly? Where is this “I” exactly that is ignoring thoughts? I want you to sit quietly for 5 minutes and see if you can ignore thoughts for that time. Let me know how you go.

I sat for 5 minutes and I couldn’t ignore thoughts. I was aware of all the thoughts and just let them be in other words they just appeared in awareness.

Where exactly is this ‘mind’? What is the AE of ‘mind’?

The AE of mind is simply another thought.

What exactly is it that wants to ignore thoughts?

It is a thought that wants to ignore thoughts nothing else.

Have you been able to find/see a thinker of thought in all of the thought exercises you have done?

There are thoughts telling me that there is an I, a thinker of these thoughts but these are just thoughts.

If you are not the thinker or controller of thought..then how can thought possibly be ignored?

When you put it like that it makes sense that if there is no thinker or controller of thought then it follows that thought can’t be ignored because thought has nothing to do with who I am at all. They are just there and are almost a completely separate entity.

Are you saying that if you don’t ignore them, then you have control over them? Tell me how you control them exactly? I would like a step by step description on how you control thoughts.

It is a thought that tells me that if don’t ignore them I can control them. If I’m planning a meal and I visualize what ingredients I may need (thought), then visualize if I think I have them in the cupboards and fridge etc (more thoughts), quickly then more thoughts come in like which shop I need to go to to buy whatever I need, will I cook a big portion and freeze some of it for during the week, etc etc….it seems to be the thoughts like trying to remember what I have in the fridge fools me into thinking I have some control over that thought because I’m actively trying to remember something which is just another thought again isn’t it? I must admit I’m totally lost with this and don’t know where to go with it. I presume the “I’m actively trying to remember something”, is just another thought as well and therefore not really me thinking it. Is that what you mean by not having no control over thoughts?

How do you know what thought is going to appear next? I would like for you to tell me how you are aware of what thought is going to appear, without it appearing for you to be aware of?

I don’t know I just presume that I know because it seems to be linked to the last thought but that really is just a retrospective thought after the thought has already appeared so therefore like you say the thought appears in awareness first. Therefore I couldn’t possibly know which thought was going to appear in the first place.

Where exactly is the middle of a thought? Where does one thought end and another begin?

I don’t know where the middle of a thought is. Is there a middle to any thought or is it just there. Thoughts seem appear so quickly one after the other that sometimes they all seem to melt into each other which makes it impossible to distinguish one from any other one. Is it all just one big thought full stop.

I’m not sure if any of those responses make any sense. I am finding the whole thought exercises extremely challenging as I’m sure you can gather but I’m willing to do the work and stay with it.

All the best

Ado

[forgetmenot]

Hello Ado,

How does the word/label/thought “I” follow other thoughts? Because that is all “I” is…it is simply a label. What does the label “I” point to? Does it point to taste, sound, thought, smell, sensation or thought?

Yes I can see that I is just another thought/label/word. The label I doesn’t point to taste sound smell sensation or thought.

You might want to look at this again. What does the LABEL “I” point to? Does it point to colour, sound, sensation, taste, smell or THOUGHT?

As I sit here in the moment all that there is is sound (traffic, cistern dripping from the toilet next door, sensation (warmth in my legs and the softness of the bed under my legs and backside, the pressure of my back against the pillow behind me), smell (very faint musty smell in the air), taste (taste of crisps I had with a sandwich earlier on), and thought( I am typing on my laptop). In this moment there doesn’t seem to be an I until thought tells there is.

So the thought I is just another thought and can’t possible follow any thoughts as it is just one of many thoughts arising and falling.

Yes, exactly! “I” is not a place where thoughts appear. “I” is a thought. It arises and subsides by itself.

If you can't choose what you're aware of, then what else is there to choose?

I can’t seem to choose what I’m aware of so consequently there musn't be any choice with anything.

Exactly…so can you choose which thoughts appear or when?

Is not “As long as I'm totally ignoring thoughts they just appear by themselves” simply a thought as well? Can you find a thinker of thought in the thought itself? Can you find the ignorer of thought in the thought itself?

There is no thinker of thought in thought itself it is just thought that tells me there is a thinker there. And also there can be no ignorer of thought in thought itself again I can see that that is also just another thought.

Terrific!

How can you ignore thoughts exactly? Where is this “I” exactly that is ignoring thoughts? I want you to sit quietly for 5 minutes and see if you can ignore thoughts for that time. Let me know how you go.

I sat for 5 minutes and I couldn’t ignore thoughts. I was aware of all the thoughts and just let them be in other words they just appeared in awareness.

Great! :) So the idea that there is someone/something that can ignore thoughts…is just another thought appearing in/as awareness!

If you are not the thinker or controller of thought..then how can thought possibly be ignored?

When you put it like that it makes sense that if there is no thinker or controller of thought then it follows that thought can’t be ignored because thought has nothing to do with who I am at all. They are just there and are almost a completely separate entity.

Thoughts are not aware and cannot be an entity. Thought is not what thought says it is. I want you to look very carefully at the following.

A thought is known, yes…as is colour, smell, taste etc. Where does thought (known) end, and the knowing of it begin? Can you find a dividing line between the knowing of thought and the thought itself? Or is there simply knowingknown – ie no dividing line?

Are you saying that if you don’t ignore them, then you have control over them? Tell me how you control them exactly? I would like a step by step description on how you control thoughts.

It is a thought that tells me that if don’t ignore them I can control them. If I’m planning a meal and I visualize what ingredients I may need (thought), then visualize if I think I have them in the cupboards and fridge etc (more thoughts), quickly then more thoughts come in like which shop I need to go to to buy whatever I need, will I cook a big portion and freeze some of it for during the week, etc etc….it seems to be the thoughts like trying to remember what I have in the fridge fools me into thinking I have some control over that thought because I’m actively trying to remember something which is just another thought again isn’t it?

Where exactly is this “I” that is planning a meal and visualising ingredients? There is an idea/thought that infers there is a you who is doing all of this…but when you look can you find this “I”. Yes, there are thoughts ABOUT an “I” doing it…but when you look can you find an “I”?

I must admit I’m totally lost with this and don’t know where to go with it. I presume the “I’m actively trying to remember something”, is just another thought as well and therefore not really me thinking it. Is that what you mean by not having no control over thoughts?

Yes, that is what I mean. If you could control thoughts why would you ever have a negative, fearful or hurtful thought again? Let’s say you are in the middle of cooking dinner and all of a sudden a thought appears about a pet you had that died a few years back. The idea of sadness appears with that story. If you were the thinker/controller of thought…why would you have that story appear in the middle of cooking dinner when you are focused on cooking?

Thoughts appear and they seem to have some order and sequence. There is nothing remembering what is in the fridge…and thoughts themselves certainly can’t remember anything. We will look at memory later on.

How do you know what thought is going to appear next? I would like for you to tell me how you are aware of what thought is going to appear, without it appearing for you to be aware of?

I don’t know I just presume that I know because it seems to be linked to the last thought but that really is just a retrospective thought after the thought has already appeared so therefore like you say the thought appears in awareness first. Therefore I couldn’t possibly know which thought was going to appear in the first place.

Lovely, yes!

Where exactly is the middle of a thought? Where does one thought end and another begin?

I don’t know where the middle of a thought is. Is there a middle to any thought or is it just there. Thoughts seem appear so quickly one after the other that sometimes they all seem to melt into each other which makes it impossible to distinguish one from any other one. Is it all just one big thought full stop.

Yep. It’s like asking where the middle of a ball of string is.

I’m not sure if any of those responses make any sense. I am finding the whole thought exercises extremely challenging as I’m sure you can gather but I’m willing to do the work and stay with it.

And we will stay with it until it is much clearer. Thoughts are very tricky to see through and you are not the only one who finds this so.

Kay

[Clashnacrona]

Hi Kay,

I’ve had a look at your questions and below are my responses.

You might want to look at this again. What does the LABEL “I” point to? Does it point to colour, sound, sensation, taste, smell or THOUGHT?

Even without you putting thought in CAPS it is obvious to me now that the label “I” points to thought. It can only be thought as thought is ephemeral and can’t possibly point to colour, sound, taste, smell or sensation. It is a thought that tells me it is me or I and nothing else.

Exactly…so can you choose which thoughts appear or when?

No seemingly I can’t choose any thoughts that appear or when they appear. It is only a thought that tells me I have a choice in which thoughts to think.

A thought is known, yes…as is colour, smell, taste etc. Where does thought (known) end, and the knowing of it begin? Can you find a dividing line between the knowing of thought and the thought itself? Or is there simply knowingknown – ie no dividing line?

I can’t see any dividing line between the known thought and the knowing of thought. If a thought is known this implies present tense in other words that it is always and forever known so it can’t be unknown and therefore knowing can’t begin since it is already always known. There seems to be no dividing line between the thought (known) end, and the knowing of it beginning.
Is there then a difference between a thought being known and a thought being believed? Just because a thought is known does not mean it is to be taken as fact and should be believed. In other words if I have the thought “I am fat”, that is just a thought that is known but the contents of it are not necessarily true. That thought may come in after I having eaten a large meal and dessert. In that scenario what is known is a sensation of feeling full in my belly and possibly the thought “I feel full”, but then any other thoughts that might follow that like “you’re getting fat”, or “you shouldn’t have eaten that dessert”, are also known but not necessarily true or to be believed. They are just random thoughts that take me away from the present moment.

Where exactly is this “I” that is planning a meal and visualising ingredients? There is an idea/thought that infers there is a you who is doing all of this…but when you look can you find this “I”. Yes, there are thoughts ABOUT an “I” doing it…but when you look can you find an “I”?

As you say there are certainly thoughts about a “I” doing the planning and the visualizing of the meal but without thought there can’t be an “I”. So do I not need an "I" do to anything then? Do meals get cooked and cars get driven and work get done without the need for an "I"? I know that might seem blatantly obvious to you but this is only just starting to dawn on me now.

All the best
Ado

[forgetmenot]

Hey Adrian,

Even without you putting thought in CAPS it is obvious to me now that the label “I” points to thought. It can only be thought as thought is ephemeral and can’t possibly point to colour, sound, taste, smell or sensation. It is a thought that tells me it is me or I and nothing else.

Yes and the content of the thought “I” is just thoughts about thought. And the content of thought is all story/fantasy.

Exactly…so can you choose which thoughts appear or when?

No seemingly I can’t choose any thoughts that appear or when they appear. It is only a thought that tells me I have a choice in which thoughts to think.

Seemingly? Is there doubt here or is there certainty that there is no choosing of thought? Since “I” is simply a thought and there is no actual “I”…then what is it exactly that could be choosing thoughts?

A thought is known, yes…as is colour, smell, taste etc. Where does thought (known) end, and the knowing of it begin? Can you find a dividing line between the knowing of thought and the thought itself? Or is there simply knowingknown – ie no dividing line?

I can’t see any dividing line between the known thought and the knowing of thought. If a thought is known this implies present tense in other words that it is always and forever known so it can’t be unknown and therefore knowing can’t begin since it is already always known. There seems to be no dividing line between the thought (known) end, and the knowing of it beginning.

Yes exactly. So is an “I” needed to know when a thought appears? Can a known appear without the knowing of it? Can there be a knowing without a known? In other words, would you agree that if there is no border where experience (known) stops and knowing starts, then "experience" and "awareness" (knowing), are one and the same?
Is "knowing" (consciousness/awareness/experience), separate from what is “known", or are they one and the same?

Is there then a difference between a thought being known and a thought being believed? Just because a thought is known does not mean it is to be taken as fact and should be believed. In other words if I have the thought “I am fat”, that is just a thought that is known but the contents of it are not necessarily true. That thought may come in after I having eaten a large meal and dessert. In that scenario what is known is a sensation of feeling full in my belly and possibly the thought “I feel full”, but then any other thoughts that might follow that like “you’re getting fat”, or “you shouldn’t have eaten that dessert”, are also known but not necessarily true or to be believed. They are just random thoughts that take me away from the present moment.

No thought is believable! What is it exactly that is believing thought? The content of ALL thought is simply further thought. Thoughts about thought and point to nothing but AE of thought.

Okay, here is an exercise which points out the difference between actual experience and content of thought.

Okay, here is an exercise which points out the difference between actual experience and content of thought. Thoughts either point to AE or they point to thoughts about thought. Thought, in and of itself, does not contain any experience, otherwise you would be able to taste the word ‘sweet’ and feel the word ‘hot’ and hear thunder when the word ‘thunder’ appeared!

There are two types of thoughts:
#1 Thoughts with words “Here is cup”
#2 Visual mental images of a ‘cup’

So I invite you to do this exercise:
Think of a cup. Get a very clear picture in your mind. See clearly the size, shape, colour and volume of the cup. Notice whether it is decorated or plain. Notice whether it has a handle. Notice whether it is heavy or fragile. Do you have a clear picture in mind?

Now, can you physically grasp that image of a cup?
Can you pour tea into it?
Can you drink from it?

Is there a ‘real’ cup or just a mental image of a cup?
Is the content of the mental image (the cup) ‘real’?


Now let’s look at the word thought “here is a cup”….

Can a 'real' cup be found in the thought itself?

"Here is a cup" is the thought; the ensuing thoughts of what a cup is and does, what it is made from etc are the content of that thought. What do those thoughts point to exactly? Do they point to colour, taste, smell, sensation or sound? Or do they simply point to actual experience of thought and thought only?

So thoughts and mental images are actual experience only as arising thoughts (words and mental image), their ‘presence’ cannot be denied. However their contents, what they are about, what they are pointing to (like the cup) are not ‘real’, they are just fantasies. Can you see this?

Over the course of the next day or so, I'd like you to notice the content of thoughts. Whenever there is an arising thought or mental image, check whether its content (what it’s about, what it is pointing to) is REALLY happening, or the content is just pure imagination. Let me know how it goes.

As you say there are certainly thoughts about a “I” doing the planning and the visualizing of the meal but without thought there can’t be an “I”. So do I not need an "I" do to anything then? Do meals get cooked and cars get driven and work get done without the need for an "I"? I know that might seem blatantly obvious to you but this is only just starting to dawn on me now.

Isn't that terrific...that it is starting to dawn on you now! And LOOK right now and tell me if you can find ‘this “I” that is doing these things. Let me know what you find.

Kay

[Clashnacrona]

Hi Kay,

I spent a good bit of time today distinguishing between which thoughts were pointing to what is real and what was fantasy and story and not surprisingly most of the thoughts that I was aware of were in the realm of imagination and story. I'm still not right physically and I did a gave a full on drumming workshop to 200 kids today so I'm shattered and heading into my day job on the morning so I'll post a proper reply tomorrow evening.

Regards

Ado

[Clashnacrona]

Hi Kay,

Seemingly? Is there doubt here or is there certainty that there is no choosing of thought? Since “I” is simply a thought and there is no actual “I”…then what is it exactly that could be choosing thoughts?

No there is no doubt it is only the “I” thought that tries to tell me it is choosing thoughts.

Yes exactly. So is an “I” needed to know when a thought appears? Can a known appear without the knowing of it? Can there be a knowing without a known? In other words, would you agree that if there is no border where experience (known) stops and knowing starts, then "experience" and "awareness" (knowing), are one and the same?
Is "knowing" (consciousness/awareness/experience), separate from what is “known", or are they one and the same?

They can only be one and the same. Without the “I” thought telling me that it is controlling when thought appears then “knowing” (consciousness/awareness/experience) is all the one and the same thing.

"Here is a cup" is the thought; the ensuing thoughts of what a cup is and does, what it is made from etc are the content of that thought. What do those thoughts point to exactly? Do they point to colour, taste, smell, sensation or sound? Or do they simply point to actual experience of thought and thought only?

So thoughts and mental images are actual experience only as arising thoughts (words and mental image), their ‘presence’ cannot be denied. However their contents, what they are about, what they are pointing to (like the cup) are not ‘real’, they are just fantasies. Can you see this?

Yes I can see this clearly. I did the cup exercise a couple of times and it can only be fantasy. Like you say the mental images and arising thoughts are there but the content can’t be real since it doesn’t point to anything real like colour, taste, smell, sensation or sound. It’s just not possible to pour a coffee into a mental image of a cup that can only be done with a ‘real’ physical cup in front of you.

Over the course of the next day or so, I'd like you to notice the content of thoughts. Whenever there is an arising thought or mental image, check whether its content (what it’s about, what it is pointing to) is REALLY happening, or the content is just pure imagination. Let me know how it goes.

I have been doing this fairly diligently over the last few days and it has been quite clear and obvious when thoughts are describing something real like the taste of a cup of coffee or the colour I’m looking at from my front doorstep as opposed to the pure imagination and “I” thoughts. I delivered a drumming workshop to a load of school kids yesterday and it seemed easy enough to stay fairly present with them as I was playing the whole time and “on stage” as such and there was no room for spacing out.
Whereas on the ward today I found it much harder to stay out of the dialogue in my head even though I was catching myself a lot and differentiating between what was really happening and what was pure imagination. I also slept very badly last night and had to keep telling myself that the body was tired rather than I’m tired. I have been presuming I am my mind and body for 47 years so it is a big adjustment to realise that that has been a lie. And there have been brief moments of freedom but in that suddenly there’ll be a negative thought and I’ll find myself telling myself that its okay cos that’s just a thought and its not me at all. I presume it takes a while for a permanent shift in perception to occur and its then the real work of seeing through old beliefs and conditioning starts.
I hope that makes sense.

All the best

Ado

[forgetmenot]

Hello Ado,

You are doing a great job with this exploration, even through sickness.

Is "knowing" (consciousness/awareness/experience), separate from what is “known", or are they one and the same?

They can only be one and the same. Without the “I” thought telling me that it is controlling when thought appears then “knowing” (consciousness/awareness/experience) is all the one and the same thing.

Yes, they can only be one and the same. The following exercise will show you this more learly.

Look at the display before you.
When seeing it, is there any division between seeing, seer, and the seen?
Are these three separate?
If yes, could you find the boundary between the three? Not an imagined, conceptual boundary, but an actual boundary that can be perceived with one or more of the senses.

Over the course of the next day or so, I'd like you to notice the content of thoughts. Whenever there is an arising thought or mental image, check whether its content (what it’s about, what it is pointing to) is REALLY happening, or the content is just pure imagination. Let me know how it goes.

I have been doing this fairly diligently over the last few days and it has been quite clear and obvious when thoughts are describing something real like the taste of a cup of coffee or the colour I’m looking at from my front doorstep as opposed to the pure imagination and “I” thoughts. I delivered a drumming workshop to a load of school kids yesterday and it seemed easy enough to stay fairly present with them as I was playing the whole time and “on stage” as such and there was no room for spacing out.

Is there a you in control of what you are aware of? In other words is there a you that is in control of whether or not "spacing out" happens and where attention goes?

Nice job looking at what is and what is imagined. If thought says that you saw a spectacular sunrise yesterday…is that sunrise experience as you presently find it? No…so it is just thought story ie ‘imagination’. If however, the colours labelled ‘spectacular sunrise’ is experience as you presently find it (ie now), then thought is pointing to actual experience as you presently find it That is, that the colour thought refers to as a 'sunrise' is what is actually appearing now. Thought either points to actual experience as you presently find it...or it is pointing to thoughts about actual experience which is not the current experience which then equates to just story...thought fluff/imagination – thoughts about thoughts.

Whereas on the ward today I found it much harder to stay out of the dialogue in my head even though I was catching myself a lot and differentiating between what was really happening and what was pure imagination. I also slept very badly last night and had to keep telling myself that the body was tired rather than I’m tired.

This is great! Becoming the observer of thought is one of the keys to automatically seeing how everything is a story, even if it ‘feels’ so real.

I have been presuming I am my mind and body for 47 years so it is a big adjustment to realise that that has been a lie. And there have been brief moments of freedom but in that suddenly there’ll be a negative thought and I’ll find myself telling myself that its okay cos that’s just a thought and its not me at all. I presume it takes a while for a permanent shift in perception to occur and its then the real work of seeing through old beliefs and conditioning starts.

This exploration is just a beginning and not an ending. The core belief of being a separate self is seen through but there will still be beliefs and patterns that are rooted in the idea of being a separate self that will need clearing, as not everything gets rewritten in one big hit. It SEEMS that identifying as the separate self shows up again and again along with feelings of resistance, doubt, frustration and confusion. This is known as yo-yoing and happens to everyone and is normal. Knowing that the ‘conditioning’ is not something that you own makes it easier to clear. Continuing to LOOK after the realisation is very much the key.

So let’s have a look at the idea of control, choice and decisions.

1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down.
2. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.

Watch like a hawk.

Don't go to thoughts, examine the actual experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire…

How is the movement controlled?
Does a thought control it?
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

By the way...how is the fear going these days? What's happening there?

Kay

[Clashnacrona]

Hi Kay,

I wasn’t sure if you meant the actual computer display before me or any display of visual image before me.

Yes, they can only be one and the same. The following exercise will show you this more clearly.

Look at the display before you.
When seeing it, is there any division between seeing, seer, and the seen?
Are these three separate?
If yes, could you find the boundary between the three? Not an imagined, conceptual boundary, but an actual boundary that can be perceived with one or more of the senses.

When I read your post first I was sitting outside my front door which has a spectacular view of trees and hills and a lake. As I was looking at the scene I first of all focused on the hills in the far distance and then on the trees on the hill just opposite my house and then on the trees 100 yards in front of me at the bottom of the field. I had a strange sensation of looking out through holes on my head/face but there didn’t seem to be any eyes there getting in the way. It was as if the scene in front of me was pouring out of me and it was also passing back through the holes in my face/head and continuing on behind me. I really tried hard to look for the boundary and I was expecting it to be my eyes especially and my body but it just didn’t seem to be there. I felt quite peaceful and calm when I realised this. I tried it again while I was in the car waiting for one of my girls to finish her piano lesson. There was a house across the road with some sheep grazing in a big garden and the only thing that seemed to present as a boundary was the dirty windscreen of the car. Otherwise I had a similar feeling ones with seeing, seer and the seen.
I did look with the senses and couldn’t find smell, sound, colour, taste or thought that indicated any boundary at all. It is only thought that presumes and judges that there is a boundary between what is seen the seer and the seeing.

Is there a you in control of what you are aware of?

There is no “you/me” in control of what I’m aware of as far as I can see. It is only thought that tells me there is. Awareness just is and encompasses everything there is.

In other words is there a you that is in control of whether or not "spacing out" happens and where attention goes?

This one I’m finding a little harder to get my head around. Does attention just automatically go where it is needed in other words attention/awareness just concentrates on driving the car without the need for any conscious thought. So if I’m driving a route I know well there is no need for thought as such since awareness just knows which turns to take and thought can take a back seat which is different from spacing out. In fact its the complete opposite its being totally in the present moment without thought needing to interfere.

So let’s have a look at the idea of control, choice and decisions.

1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down.
2. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.

Watch like a hawk.

Don't go to thoughts, examine the actual experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire…

How is the movement controlled?

I’m not sure it is controlled by anything but instint. Once the command is given to turn the hand palm down then palm up and so on it seems to just happen automatically. I didn’t notice any thoughts telling me to do anything.
Does a thought control it?

It doesn’t seem to.

Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

No

How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.

As I mentioned above once the command is given by the brain or maybe an initial thought it them seems to continue automatically.

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

No I couldn’t and I’m finding that fascinating. There doesn’t seem to be any need for thought at all.

By the way...how is the fear going these days? What's happening there?

The fear seems to be pretty non existent the majority of the time. The odd time I feel a little fearful coming home to my house at nighttime. It is a big old farmhouse on its own on top of a hill in the countryside. I used to feel fearful around ghost and entities being in the house sometimes but those fears are gone as I realised it was just fearful thoughts generating more fearful thoughts which tended to spiral sometimes but a couple of times I confronted those fears by coming into the house without turning on any lights and only using the torch on my phone and went into every room and nook and cranny to prove and there wasn’t anybody living or dead in the house with me. It did work and as I’m doing this work I’m realising how most of my fears come from thoughts about fear and imagination.

Take Care

Ado