Seeking the end of "me"

[Jadzia]

It is a lovely answer.

But thought can not understand thought, as thoughts can not do anything, like understand.

Yes, what is called intellectual thinking won’t get that there is no separate self that it can only be found in a story as thought content. That’s why there is so much extra running in thought circles while trying to get it. Though thoughts will calm with the time.

We can do question by question, that is fine too.

Love,
Jadzia

[endofme]

Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now. 

Looking at it, this illusion is something that appears to be taken for granted. Or there are thoughts of taking this illusion for granted. I am finding that I can not really describe it, yet it is something that feels so familiar. Looking at it: there is no me. No thinker. So what is this illusion? The collection of thoughts? But how can there be a collection? There's only this thought, which seems to say a lot. I'm beginning to see that the illusion cannot be found in looking, and therefore does not exist. There is no self, nor the illusion of self. It never started and doesn't do anything. Neither can be found. Yet the feeling remains. The thought remains.

How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days. 

There has been a shift in anxiety and (fictional) emotional suffering since seeing through this illusion. I feel much more at peace with reality, and am more able to accept what is. Any guilt of past actions has dissolved, seeing that there was no one to do these actions. There are still thoughts which arise that say that this illusionary 'I' still identifies with the illusion. From before I started this dialogue, my anxiety was at times very high and intense, especially about facing reality, or facing the moment. I could not and would not sit still and just enjoy this Symphony. I constantly needed something to fill the void of an illusionary time. Within the past few days I have noticed a calm peace, which had always come and gone since before this dialogue, but seems to come more often than before, according to thoughts of memory. I feel at ease talking to strangers, putting myself in uncomfortable situations, and accepting what is. I often find myself in awe of things happening, instead of trying to be the doer. This reminds me of what happens when becoming lucid in (what is labeled) a lucid dream, and looking in awe and wonder at everything that I can see and experience.

[Jadzia]

Life, Awareness, This as Justin, life as Jadzia, life as oak tree and …… life as thoughts.
These lovely thoughts are needed to write here, to share what you find. You can relax around/with them. All thoughts are fine.

So what is this illusion? The collection of thoughts? But how can there be a collection? There's only this thought, which seems to say a lot. I'm beginning to see that the illusion cannot be found in looking, and therefore does not exist. There is no self, nor the illusion of self. It never started and doesn't do anything. Neither can be found. Yet the feeling remains. The thought remains.

Though there is just the now, this very moment, it seems that there is memory aka thoughts which tell a story. This story is formed by beliefs=thoughts. And right you can’t find a belief in direct experience, the belief is the content of a thought. So that what the beliefs/the illusion tell about can’t be found.
Well, that doesn’t change that the thoughts about the I are around. They are, simply are.

How does this story telling, the I, me, mine start, any idea?

Is the remaining feeling a feeling of an I, or a thought about a feeling of an I, or a sense of aliveness?

I often find myself in awe of things happening, instead of trying to be the doer.

Isn’t that wonderful?
The more you drop the scrutiny of verrrrry close looking the more this might be in the cards.

Looking forward to your thoughts on the questions.

Love,
Jadzia

[endofme]

Hello :-)

How does this story telling, the I, me, mine start, any idea?

It is hard to say, but likely when the baby learns a language. Learns words and starts labeling things. Learns that it has a name. I do not know if there is awareness of thoughts before language, or if it is only directly experience without labeling, but I suppose this to be the case.

Is the remaining feeling a feeling of an I, or a thought about a feeling of an I, or a sense of aliveness?

The problem is these are all labels, and labels don't completely grasp it. I want say it’s a feeling of an I, but the truth is I can't pinpoint what that feeling would be. And then I want to say it’s a thought about a feeling of an I, because feelings are thoughts. And then I want to say it’s a sense of aliveness, because that sounds good. Yes, there is a strong sense of aliveness, while there is awareness of me-thoughts. That about sums it up. But does this imply separation? Maybe not if one sees that this aliveness and awareness are the same feeling, right?

What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? 

There was a night where something clicked. After making a few posts on here, I was observing thought, as Jazdia had instructed me to do, and noticed that there is no way to think a thought. They only come. They arise from nowhere and dissolve into nothing. I noticed how they sometimes seem to follow patterns, and how they sometimes arise randomly. Before this, I conceptually understood the idea of no-self because I could see that a self is merely an idea that is (through illusion of story) superimposed onto a human body. I still struggled with the feeling of being the thinker. With this feeling, I thought that this thinker, aka "I", could still be found between the thoughts. But I had never looked for it. Upon looking, I noticed that there was nothing between thoughts. Thoughts only arise and go, and arise and go. No thinker. Only thoughts. No me, only thoughts of a me. Even after this, there is a strong identification (who identifies?) as the thinker, but it was like a light was shone on the deceptive nature of thought, and the illusion is dissolving, seemingly slowly, but surely.

Describe:

Decision- decisions can not be decisions at all, as this would require a separate entity to be the decider. There can only be thoughts of a decision being made.

When looking, no decision can be found, neither a decider. Things just happen. And there is awareness, which thought labels as being aware of these things happening. But the illusion of being the doer/decider is strong. Sometimes there are thoughts of being the one who made a decision. The illusion goes even deeper when it seems that the next thought is somehow influenced by the decision which was just made. So the story is that there is a me that made the decision, and also the next thought which arises which somehow reflects this decision. To say that there is no doer/thinker, this all seems like cause and effect, but I will use your proposed method to look at cause and effect directly.

For example, there was a thought that my eye itched just now, and my hands reach up to rub it and also pushed my glasses off my face, so then the hands ended up rubbing the rest of my eyes, as it usually does when they push my glasses up like that. At which point was the decision made between the thought of the itch, and the action of rubbing it? It just seemed to happen. There was never a thought of 'ok, my eye itches, I must move my right hand up to it and rub". The hand just did this. But then there was so immediately after a thought that "I" wanted to do this. So to put a 'logical' explanation to it, it WAS cause and effect, not thought, which led from one sequence to another. But looking isn't logical, and cause and effect can not be found in direct looking, only in thought story. Thoughts about cause and effect, and about being logical.

One thing though that stumps me... I have practiced many times when trying to induce sleep paralysis, or doing a meditation which requires being very still, and can often times "stop myself" from scratching an itch on the face. In my previous example, the hand rubbed the itch on its own, without an actual thought to do it. But if I had wanted to not scratch it, it wouldn't have scratched. This is a tricky part of the illusion. Because I have to put conscious effort into not raising the hand to scratch it. The only way I can describe this is that there are thoughts of not scratching it, because there are thoughts of there being a purpose not to scratch, and there was never a me to decide if this is one of those times or not, right?

[endofme]

sorry about this part:

Even after this, there is a strong identification (who identifies?) as the thinker...

I often times in spiritual autolysis put the "who does this" in parenthesis as a kind of affirmation, but forgot to take it out of here before posting. I don't think its bad though :-) It's not really a question towards you, just wanted to clarify that.

[endofme]

How does this story telling, the I, me, mine start, any idea?

another way to answer this is... It never started. It's always been there, as long as I can remember.

[Jadzia]

It is hard to say, but likely when the baby learns a language. Learns words and starts labeling things. Learns that it has a name.

Yes, one is even taught the name tag.

Yes, there is a strong sense of aliveness, while there is awareness of me-thoughts. That about sums it up. But does this imply separation? Maybe not if one sees that this aliveness and awareness are the same feeling, right?

All labels, right.
One could say that the sense of aliveness and awareness are the same.

Because I have to put conscious effort into not raising the hand to scratch it. The only way I can describe this is that there are thoughts of not scratching it, because there are thoughts of there being a purpose not to scratch, and there was never a me to decide if this is one of those times or not, right?

Yes, about decision – one really has to stay on the heels of thoughts. They come in light speed and the story is sooo convincing.
But whenever one looks no decider can be found. Thoughts are rambling on, fine, why not.

How does this story telling, the I, me, mine start, any idea?
another way to answer this is... It never started. It's always been there, as long as I can remember.

Memory doesn’t go very far into early childhood, so yes, you can’t really tell.
We could say that never anything started and never anything stopped. ;-)

Love,
Jadzia

[endofme]

Intention : Webster defines intention as - a determination to act in a certain way. But i have had a glimpse past the illusion of being the doer, and can see that there is no one to hold an intention. There are thoughts of holding an intention, say, to be nice in front of someone. But there is no one who holds this intention, only thoughts about it happening. And poof! It's held, or something. One can get through an entire conversation with an obnoxious person without rolling their eyes or getting impatient, because of this thought of holding an intention to be nice and smile. And it seems to kind of act on its own, these intentional thoughts, without the need of any doer. But that's an illusion too, because thoughts can't do anything. There only seems to be a story playing out. Thoughts of a story playing out. And if there is an awareness of this story, it is not separate than the story. The story is aware of itself. The story just.... IS.

We can bookmark that so we can scrutinize it in a follow up thread, if you like, haha.

Ok, intention in direct experience. The way that I have always believed to hold an intention is this - and I'll use direct looking to act this out - there is an affirmation stated which might say - "I will touch every finger but the middle one, one at a time." so I begin touching each one with my thumb, every time intentionally skipping over the middle finger. It seems that I'm holding an intention not to touch the middle finger. There also seems that I'm holding an intention of going in one direction, over and over again. In fact it seems it would take a separate intention to change the direction, all the while skipping the middle finger. Then there is another intention to stop. And the hand stops.

However, there is no thinker, and these thoughts merely arise. The affirmation (invisible, or heard in thought) that was stated to initiate the intention was a thought which arose. No one picked it. A me-thought swooped in real quick and claimed it, but me-thoughts don't have to be believed. (interesting, because all thoughts are me-thoughts). Immediately after the affirmation arises, the hand moves in the desired manner. The thumb touches each finger but the middle. Over and over. Every now and then the middle finger moves in as if the intention wavered a bit, but to say this is why it happened is a label I put on the experience and actually I have no clue why the middle finger jumps in at random times. An intention is a thought, and thoughts can't do anything, like waver, or intend.

[Jadzia]

Let’s have a little break here.
Did you notice, your answers are everything but simple.
You really want to explain and understand properly. What seems to happen is that thought take over and clouds your looking. Looking for you seems to be an act.

Instead of looking let’s take the word noticing.
Looking is noticing, simply noticing. Very passive, very gentle and very, very simple
Noticing what is experienced and what isn’t.
This is the whole point – what is experienced and what isn’t.

So sit somewhere and notice seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting and feeling.
Notice what thought does or doesn’t.
Just this, nice and simple. No extra effort, no explanation or definition needed, just plain noticing.

Watch how noticing is prior to thinking. That thought is part of what is noticed.

After a while of this simple joy, come to a Full Stop, notice what is there, when thoughts and story slip into the background.

Love,
Jadzia

[endofme]

So sit somewhere and notice seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting and feeling.
Notice what thought does or doesn’t.
Just this, nice and simple. No extra effort, no explanation or definition needed, just plain noticing.

Ok, so sit and notice whatever is in experience, without 'thinking' about it. Only notice any thoughts that may arise about it. Ok. I got you.

After a while of this simple joy, come to a Full Stop, notice what is there, when thoughts and story slip into the background.

A full stop of what?

Ok I will try intention again but more simple.

At no point is there ever an intention made to do something, like wave a hand. The intention rises, it is not made.

[Jadzia]

Ok, so sit and notice whatever is in experience, without 'thinking' about it. Only notice any thoughts that may arise about it. Ok. I got you.

Yes, stay with it or come back to it any time again.

After a while of this simple joy, come to a Full Stop, notice what is there, when thoughts and story slip into the background.
A full stop of what?

When for a moment all stories and thoughts and ways to look at things fall away - just drop it for a mo´ment and then notice what is there.

[endofme]

Ok i will do some sitting and noticing tonight. Actually I have found myself doing this from time to time but not particularly when I am answering your questions, which always seemed to require more thought haha. But I get what you are saying and that much thinking should be saved for the journal.

Free will and choice

I can see the illusion of free will, which has always been taken for granted as 'my free will'. Thoughts arise to do or not do something, and the action of performed, or not. For example, it seems that I could have chosen to type this either on my phone, or on the computer. The thought arose to type it on the phone instead. There was never a point where I chose to do this. The thought arose, and now it's being typed. To try and explain how this happened is useless. It happened, and now this answer is finished.

[Jadzia]

But I get what you are saying and that much thinking should be saved for the journal.

Tsk, needed or not? The thinking around and explaining? This endless this and this as well might really cloud that what is described.

Like your Free will and choice a lot.
Would you mind redoing the decribe this and that, starting from decision?

Love,
Jadzias

[endofme]

Decision -
If I decide to do something, what is really happening is an impulse arises, an acton happens, and then a thought labels this lightening fast. For example, I am deciding /choosing which video game to play. Three choices appear on the TV screen, from the console start screen. All three of these games I enjoy playing, but one I've already beaten, so that makes the 'decision' that much easier. I scroll back and forth between the first two options, and suddenly an impulse arises. This impulse can be felt in the heart area sometimes. Almost immediately, a thought swoops in, labels the impulse as a decision, and (story - wise) claims it as the work of the self.

Intention

Intentions are not made, intentions are thoughts which arise, with some appearance of bias towards intention of doing a certain action. For example, an intention arises which claims (story-wise) that it would be better to smile and be pleasant when dealing with clients at work, than to act completely natural, which at any unfortunate point of the day might be sour or nonchalant. Each thought which arises somehow seems to include this intentional thought, at least until the need of it is over. Intentions come and go, just like any other thought.

Free will

Free will is an idea which exists in thought story. There can be no free will because the self who would have free will exists only in thought story.

Choice

There is no one to choose, only thoughts labeling an action as being a choice. For example, it seems that I could have chosen to type this either on my phone, or on the computer. The thought arose to type it on the phone instead. There was never a point where I chose to do this. The thought arose, and now it's being typed. There was an impulse action, which was labeled decisions, and then this was labeled as a choice made from options.

Control

There is no me in control. No me between the thoughts, controlling the thoughts, or any other part of my body. Thoughts of control do arise. A body action is made and thought labels this as control. If I wave my hand, there is an impulse which arises and the hand moves this way and that. Thought immediately labels this as consciously waving the hand. But if looking closely, there was never a thought to do this. There was an impulse and the hand begins to wave, and then a thought which said it was an impulse to wave the hand, and then suddenly if feels as if I am waving my hand.

[Jadzia]

Yesss.

Tell me is there a difference felt between answering this way and the way before this?

Love,
Jadzia