Not "Getting It"

[Bayou1]

Hello!

Can you say a little more about this blank slate experience?

It's just a quiet, peaceful feeling with much reduced perceptions, sensations, and thought. There still are some thoughts, of course, and some sensations as well - the sitting, hands being folded, sensations of eyelids being closed, and so on.

Is there really a "blank slate"? Are there not sensations going on within this experience? Is the sense of space a type of sensation for instance?

Yes, you're right. While the sensory input is much less than normal, there still is some stuff going on (like the sitting sensation mentioned above). The sense of space is also a sensation.

And lastly, where else can we be other than in DE?

We can't be anywhere other than DE, but there are those times when we are "lost in the content of thought." Thought is in DE as well, but there are those times when the whirl of thought seems to grab all attention away from everything else in direct experience. We went through how there isn't a controller of attention, though, so it must be "okay" to be lost in thought - it's just what's happening. This goes against a lot of those so-called gurus out there that have as their main messages that we should quiet thoughts and be present now (with that including the instruction to kind of disregard thought). If we're not making the thoughts happen nor directing the attention that sometimes latches on to the thought trains, what can be done? It happens.

Thank you!
Bayou

[amrita]

Seasons greetings to you and yours,

I hope you have a truly fantastic time.

In response to this,

We can't be anywhere other than DE, but there are those times when we are "lost in the content of thought."

What happens when you become "lost in the content of thought"? What is the difference between being aware and present in DE and losing awareness in the *contents* of thoughts?

Love

Amrita

[Bayou1]

Howdy!

Merry Christmas to you and your family! I'm already tired out, and it's not even 2pm here yet.

What happens when you become "lost in the content of thought"? What is the difference between being aware and present in DE and losing awareness in the *contents* of thoughts?

Hmm - when lost in the content of thoughts, attention is mainly on the messages / content of thoughts and therefore not on the perceptions via the other senses. Without being a controller of attention, that's something that is outside of the control of a "director." All that these books talk about then, different practices, meditations, and so on, are just a bunch of garbage then. It's all stuff that doesn't affect anything and isn't controlled or am I off track? :)

Thanks again,
Bayou

[amrita]

Hey Bayou,

Apologies for delay but I have been busy with Xmas and family stuff. I am away now until the 2nd but wanted to check in with you.

How are you getting on with this inquiry?

Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

Happy new year X

[Bayou1]

Happy New Year, Amrita!

This inquiry and the tangents it for some reason inevitably takes with me have been in mind a lot. The feeling of being the one in the driver seat pushing the buttons to make the body move and finalize decisions is weakening. I sometimes just think, "I have no idea how this is happening," and the body continues going on about its day.

In individual senses, there is nothing sensed that is separate from what is sensed (no seer apart from seeing), and I have continued checking in whenever this is remembered. In thought, there is no thinker that can be sensed in any way composing the thoughts; the thoughts are just appearing.

At this point, there seems to be a struggle to try to push this realization over the "finish line" into a lived default place, where life is just happening by default without a doer - no inquiry required to reset thinking into that way of life. Is there a way to force this through somehow?

Thank you!
Bayou

[amrita]

I think its more a matter of relaxing and letting go rather than forcing anything.

Perhaps a way in is to relax and open up to what is being experienced right now in direct experience as opposed to being seduced or caught up with or identified in thoughts.

The word "apple" points to a physical obect but what do the words "I" "me" or "mine" point to in DE?

Amrita X

[Bayou1]

Hello!

I think its more a matter of relaxing and letting go rather than forcing anything.

Haha - alright, I was just hoping there was a way to just get it done once and for all - to power through it :)

The word "apple" points to a physical obect but what do the words "I" "me" or "mine" point to in DE?

In direct experience, there is no apple, me, or any other thing or experience. Only the content of thoughts makes a set of direct experiences an object or thing. Without thought, an apple is just a rough set of sensations that we agree should be called an apple. A person is generally thought to just be their body, which, again, is a set of sensations in DE.

It's tricky / hard to tease apart that thought in a generic sense is DE but not what the content is. Absent content, though, there is no thought, just like absent color, there is no seeing or absent sound, there is no hearing. Am I understanding this correctly, that thought on its own is DE but not its content?

Thank you!

[amrita]

HI

Yes you have understood this correctly

It's tricky / hard to tease apart that thought in a generic sense is DE but not what the content is. Absent content, though, there is no thought, just like absent color, there is no seeing or absent sound, there is no hearing. Am I understanding this correctly, that thought on its own is DE but not its content?

What is thought in DE? words? pictures? What is the "idea" of a self made up from? Words? pictures? stories? What is actually being experienced in DE? As you mentioned before experience is beyond any symbolic formulations of it. Isn't it better to live in actual experience rather than symbolic formulations of it?

Love

Amrita

[Bayou1]

Hi Amrita!

Sorry for the delay in responding; I was out of town on business and without much time available.

What is thought in DE? words? pictures?

Thoughts are either messages that blip through (the majority of thoughts seem to be messages) as well as some pictures and sounds, such as music. As far as the DE of them, they are "non-material appearances" (which, I realize in saying, is a thought-based label / judgment of what they are) in our consciousness. Often, attention becomes really focused on them to the point that it is almost as if we are not paying attention at all to our surroundings - even though the senses continue seeing, hearing, and so on. It's strange that thoughts in this way can almost seemingly block the other senses.

What is the "idea" of a self made up from? Words? pictures? stories? What is actually being experienced in DE? As you mentioned before experience is beyond any symbolic formulations of it.

The idea of me being here is made up of thought concluding that certain perceptions are me and some others are not. Anything perceived to be the body is me as well as all thoughts. The "me thoughts" (of the message variety of thoughts) also claim credit for actions, decisions, and even the working of the senses ("I heard that song, "I saw the tree," and so on).

What is actually experienced in DE is sensations, perceptions, and thoughts. The evidence presented of me being the doer in-charge is just thoughts saying so.

Isn't it better to live in actual experience rather than symbolic formulations of it?

I think it would be! How are the symbolic formulations dealt with, turned down or off, or somehow put into the background?


Thanks again!
Bayou

[amrita]

Hey,

Its great you are noticing the difference betweeen DE and being caught up in thought/ symbolised experience. As you have brilliantly noted thought is devoid of actual content. It is just words, pictures, sensations. The words I or Me are empty signifieres that point to nothing in direct experience.

Here is what my guide said to me when I was going through this process which I am pasting as you may find it helpful to you.

it's great that these changes are happening but just remember that it's LOOKING, LOOKING,LOOKING into your direct experience that's going to do it, nothing else will. So, whenever you can, just notice what's going on in your experience. Is there an 'I', a 'self', a 'me' to be found anywhere in direct experience? (By the way the use of I, me etc. is just far more convenient for us here, so no problem. I'll use inverted commas as and when it seems necessary.)Where else could the self be? Thoughts appear in direct experience but the contents of those thoughts are only symbols of what is seen, purely conceptual, shadows of reality, removed. In amongst this seemingly endless succession of thoughts of plans, memories, opinions etc.are 'I thoughts', thoughts about 'me' and what' I' want, hate etc. and these appear to predominate and give a strong sense of self.

Here is a question for you to explore...

Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

Love

Amrita

[Bayou1]

Hi Amrita!

Thank you for the quote from your guide. Not to take us off on a tangent, but when we're done with "waking me up," I'd love to hear how the process worked for you! What the snags were that tripped you up and so forth...

The words I or Me are empty signifieres that point to nothing in direct experience.

I was perusing another person's discussion on this site, and the guide there had the person picture a few things as if they were inside their heads. Then, they asked the person to picture "a self" (or something along those lines) in their head. Playing along with the exercise, what immediately popped into mind was an image of my own head. I might be getting a little stuck here. There is no one making the senses happen, but there always seems to be a body here. No matter how my personality, thoughts, preferences, hobbies, appearance, job, age, etc. changes over time, it is this single body that everyone calls by the same name. The thoughts refer to this body as "me, mine, and I," and I am experiencing this body in DE. Is it just that there is a body here, yes, but the "me, mine, and I" possession of it is simply the content of thoughts claiming it?

I continue to explore the lack of doership and continue to be surprised every time I make a check-in on experience to see if I am the one making things happen and making decisions. How can so extremely few people realize that we're not pushing the buttons to steer the ship, so to speak??? This is pretty amazing.

Thank you!
Bayou

[amrita]

Lets look at the notion of the body since you have raised it.

If you close your eyes can you find a body anywhere in DE? Yes there are sensations but apart fromt thought saying these sensations belong to the body. Can you locate sensations in particular parts of the body? Can you discern a noticeable difference between the sensations in your right foot vs your left foot for instance?

[Bayou1]

Hi Amrita,

If you close your eyes can you find a body anywhere in DE? Yes there are sensations but apart fromt thought saying these sensations belong to the body. Can you locate sensations in particular parts of the body?

No, with eyes closed, there was not a body - just sensations. You are right in that it was just thoughts saying that the related sensations are "my body" and the sounds thought to be in the other room are "not me."

Can you discern a noticeable difference between the sensations in your right foot vs your left foot for instance?

With eyes closed, it was apparent that the baseline, regular sensation of the body is just a slight tingling feeling and that the feeling itself is the same across the entire body. That is, the arm tingling feeling seems the same as the neck feeling.


In all of these experiments or explorations, it is shown time and again that there is no escape from sensation and thought - that's all that everything ever is. Thinking about consciousness has lead me to realize that just the nature of what it is makes it so that there is no escape. Something that is just there to know things cannot know anything outside itself, and everything known has to be within it to be known. Consciousness is just these sensations and thoughts. There could be a controller / director out there, but he can't be known in consciousness. Just like there could be a tooth fairy out there someplace, but I've never seen her and she is not the one that puts money under my kids' pillows when they lose teeth. I can't know the tooth fairy just like I can't know anything that's impossible for me to experience - something outside of consciousness.

Talk to you soon,
Bayou

[amrita]

Hi,

From what you write it seems you cannot find anyting resembling a self in DE yet there is a lingering doubt or belief that the self must exist. Is that right?

In all of these experiments or explorations, it is shown time and again that there is no escape from sensation and thought - that's all that everything ever is. Thinking about consciousness has lead me to realize that just the nature of what it is makes it so that there is no escape. Something that is just there to know things cannot know anything outside itself, and everything known has to be within it to be known. Consciousness is just these sensations and thoughts. There could be a controller / director out there, but he can't be known in consciousness. Just like there could be a tooth fairy out there someplace, but I've never seen her and she is not the one that puts money under my kids' pillows when they lose teeth. I can't know the tooth fairy just like I can't know anything that's impossible for me to experience - something outside of consciousness.

Is it possible that all of life is simply occuring without a self to witness or control it? And what is consciousness anyway? Is there any sense of consciousness existing outside of what is known in DE? Does consciousness exist outside of sensations, colours or thoughts? What is it that *knows* you are having this experience?

Lots of love to you

Amrita

[Bayou1]

Hello,

From what you write it seems you cannot find anyting resembling a self in DE yet there is a lingering doubt or belief that the self must exist. Is that right?

I'm not sure how to really answer this question. I go about my life, and things happen as they always have. There's a lot of thinking at work, meetings, talking to groups, etc., and, from time to time, there's remembering to check in to see if there is a doer or if things are just going on by themselves. When I check, it is true that things are just happening. However, thinking, "there is no doer!" or something along those lines isn't a thought running through the mind in every waking moment. How then can it be known if it has been grasped, if there is any doubt? I can't imagine that that is the one and only thought you have, but you are absolutely sure that you have seen through this all and realized the lack of a self. I haven't felt any change in perception or outlook but do not find a controller.

Is it possible that all of life is simply occuring without a self to witness or control it?

It is possible. For some reason, the lack of a self controlling this body is much easier to grasp and agree with without reservation than there being no self witnessing. Grasping this experience right now happening miraculously without a human body and brain putting the sensations together in a picture hurts the head to think about - kind of like trying to really, truly grasp other concepts beyond human full understanding, like omnipresence or eternity. What is witnessing and within what if not in human consciousness?

And what is consciousness anyway? Is there any sense of consciousness existing outside of what is known in DE? Does consciousness exist outside of sensations, colours or thoughts?

No, there is no DE of consciousness. There is just the experience of life, and we learn, "ah yes, this has to be consciousness, because of this and that..." A baby doesn't understand what consciousness is, but they're conscious and interacting with their surroundings. On the latter question - consciousness only reports in sensations and thoughts; if it exists beyond those things, we cannot know or experience it.

What is it that *knows* you are having this experience?

I think that consciousness is the only thing that can know anything. Anything outside of it cannot be known or experienced.


I'm starting to get that feeling of being stuck and confused again, that I'm not coming up with the correct conclusions or putting them in the right way. Where am I going astray?

Thanks for your patience with me!
Bayou