Yes thanks for that report. It's so great to see the nature of thoughts - patterned and controlled by no one.thoughts kept appearing, like "there is no gravity in direct experience but gravity exists."
Is there actually an "I" looking and finding thoughts? (Making sure!)When I look for an I, I can't find it. I find thoughts of an I.
No, there is no"I" looking and finding thoughts. Hard to break the habit of saying "I," though. So used to the subject / verb / object nature of language.Is there actually an "I" looking and finding thoughts? (Making sure!)
Sure, let's go!Are you ready for them?
There is no separate entity, just the thought of a separate entity. 'I' and 'me' are conventions of language more than anything else. There was never a separate entity in the past either.1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
The illusion of the separate self occurs when the sense of being or aliveness is mistaken for a separate self. It starts at an early age, when our parents or other adults introduce the thought of a separate self, and the thought of a separate self is reinforced by society, the subject-verb-object nature of language, and habitual thinking/thought content.2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
It doesn't feel much different, to be honest. The difference isn't really a feeling, it is more of a clearer seeing or understanding that there is no separate self.3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
I think it was when you said "Expecting a big difference can obscure a subtle shift" and "Seeing through the illusion doesn't mean that the experience of life will be different." I was expecting there to be a different experience of life and when that didn't happen, I was initially disappointed and to be truthful, there is still a little bit of that thinking. But seeing through the illusion is the first step.4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
And is it clear that all "thinking" is just automatic thoughts and not controlled by anything (as in a you)?I was initially disappointed and to be truthful, there is still a little bit of that thinking.
Good -- seeing through the illusion is a first step And the thoughts may never change. 😉But seeing through the illusion is the first step.
Sure. Here goes.When you send me the rest, will you please include all of the answers?
1) There is no separate entity, just the thought of a separate entity. 'I' and 'me' are conventions of language more than anything else. There was never a separate entity in the past either.Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
The illusion of the separate self occurs when the sense of being or aliveness is mistaken for a separate self. It starts at an early age, when our parents or other adults introduce the thought of a separate self, and the thought of a separate self is reinforced by society, the subject-verb-object nature of language, and habitual thinking/thought content.2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
It doesn't feel much different, to be honest. The difference isn't really a feeling, it is more of a clearer seeing or understanding that there is no separate self.3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
I think it was when you said "Expecting a big difference can obscure a subtle shift" and "Seeing through the illusion doesn't mean that the experience of life will be different." I was expecting there to be a different experience of life and when that didn't happen, I was initially disappointed and to be truthful, there is still a little bit of that thinking. But seeing through the illusion is the first step.4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
Yes, it is clear.And is it clear that all "thinking" is just automatic thoughts and not controlled by anything (as in a you)?
Decision, intention, free will, choice and control are thoughts. Life makes things happen. I don't know "how" it works, it just does. There is no "I" to be responsible for anything. That doesn't mean that "I" will do all kinds of crazy things because of a lack of personal responsibility. It just means that there is no "I" that is the doer. Life is the doer. Right now there is typing on the keyboard, feeling the cold of the air conditioner, hearing the faint hum of the computer and the keys tapping on the keyboard, but it is happening without a "me" doing it.5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
Not at this time. Thoughts of standing at the gate, maybe with one foot in, but not quite all the way there. A realization that it's a thought.6)Is there anything you would like to add?
I get this.It doesn't feel much different, to be honest. The difference isn't really a feeling, it is more of a clearer seeing or understanding that there is no separate self.
How do you see this now?My suffering is caused by thoughts or stories related to "I" or "me" where I am not good enough or somehow lacking.
Pretty much the same way which is why I don't think I've reached or crossed the gate. If there isn't a separate 'I' who isn't good enough or somehow lacking, then why is there still suffering?Cliff, in your intro, you wrote:How do you see this now?My suffering is caused by thoughts or stories related to "I" or "me" where I am not good enough or somehow lacking.
Is there?If there isn't a separate 'I' who isn't good enough or somehow lacking,
What is this?then why is there still suffering?
No, there isn't a separate 'I' who isn't good enough or somehow lacking. That's just a thought.Is there?If there isn't a separate 'I' who isn't good enough or somehow lacking,
More thought?What is this?then why is there still suffering?
Why is there still suffering?
More thought?
No. A 'why question' only appears as thought content.1. Is there any such thing as a why question anywhere besides thought content?
Suffering is a thought or label attached to a sensation.2. What is suffering in Direct Experience?
Suffering is a concept. Without the concept or label, it is only sensation.2a. Is suffering an experience or a concept?
Good one! Suffering occurs because there is the thought or label of suffering attached to a sensation. If there is no one experiencing the sensation, then there must be no one suffering. Or, the imaginary 'I/me' is suffering.3. What is it that could suffer? (Suffering must happen TO something/someone, right?)
Suffering is a thought or label attached to a sensation.
1. What is the sensation?Suffering occurs because there is the thought or label of suffering attached to a sensation.
Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot], Majestic-12 [Bot] and 279 guests
