The Gate

Thanks, Jon....

Do you find that there is some natural interest in noticing thoughts these days and what thoughts are 'saying'?

Oh yeah, for sure. Ever since this path became clear to me at the beginning of 2018 there's been an incredible focus on thoughts and what they're saying. How they relate to the story of "I" is something that was realized when I learned of this site.

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?
Please report from the past few days.

It feels somewhat "freeing" and "frightening" at the same time -
Freeing in the sense that life does not have to be lived the way others determine or have said it should be lived; none of that matters anymore - the labels are just nonsensical things that other people applied and the illusionary "self" believed, trusted, and accepted as "truth".

Feelings of inadequacy, frustration, anger, as well as the positive feelings of peace, joy, love, simply "are". The feelings can come and go and there is no need to attach to them and no one to attach them to anyway. There is freedom to enjoy the positive feelings without worrying how long they will last or if they will come again - there is freedom to watch the negative feelings knowing that they will pass

Fear in the sense that this goes against everything we've been conditioned to believe, accept, and understand; even something negative can become "familiar", especially if the understanding of it's negativity isn't realized.

The freedom far outweighs the fear, however

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
It was not any one thing - it was a process and, in many ways, there's a feeling that it's not complete yet. That said, the apple cannot be "unbitten" once it's there, it's there - even if it's the smallest bite

Thoughts?

There is freedom to enjoy the positive feelings without worrying how long they will last or if they will come again - there is freedom to watch the negative feelings knowing that they will pass

That's great!

Fear in the sense that this goes against everything we've been conditioned to believe, accept, and understand

Yes it is so far reaching. I understand what you mean.

It was not any one thing - it was a process and, in many ways, there's a feeling that it's not complete yet. That said, the apple cannot be "unbitten" once it's there, it's there - even if it's the smallest bite

Yes.

Please go on...


Jon

Thanks, Jon...

There is freedom to enjoy the positive feelings without worrying how long they will last or if they will come again - there is freedom to watch the negative feelings knowing that they will pass

So what's funny is I was going to ask you for reassurance that this would eventually become "automatic" but then realized that in asking this, assurance is being sought by an "I" - this is a form of clinging as opposed to "being" or "allowing life to happen". - that realization in, and of itself, demonstrates that "automatic" is already happening- lot's of interesting revelations here :)

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control.

Decisions happen - some involve analysis and others don't - analysis happens and there doesn't need to be an "I" involved.
Free Will and choice - these also simply happen and is automatic - again, analysis can happen but it simply happens without intervention of a separate "I"
Control - this is perhaps the biggest illusion of all - nothing is controlled by an "I" or a "separate self"

I want to ask about my statement regarding analysis and get your thoughts on that. I can't see analysis not happening or people would just run in the street and get hit by cars. I look forward to your feedback...

b) What makes things happen? How does it work?
c) What are you responsible for?
d) Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

b)Things happen - life happens - there is no "I" involved in making these things happen, however
c) What am I responsible for? Is this more accurately phrased "what am I in control of?" If so then there is no "I" to be in control and control is an illusion anyway. As for "responsible" if I (language) break into a store then clearly I am responsible - if a decision is made that affects others then the decision made is my (language) responsibility.

Can you clarify point c?

Thanks Jon!

James

Hi James

.So what's funny is I was going to ask you for reassurance that this would eventually become "automatic" but then realized that in asking this, assurance is being sought by an "I" - this is a form of clinging as opposed to "being" or "allowing life to happen". - that realization in, and of itself, demonstrates that "automatic" is already happening- lot's of interesting revelations here :)

Excellent. Its good to notice this.

. Decisions happen - some involve analysis and others don't - analysis happens and there doesn't need to be an "I" involved.

Yes. Perfect. For some this can be tricky to see because of identification with ,or as 'thinker of thoughts'.

. I can't see analysis not happening or people would just run in the street and get hit by cars.

Yes. But if there is any confusion about this, is it possible to find an analyst analysing?'

. ) What am I responsible for? Is this more accurately phrased "what am I in control of?" If so then there is no "I" to be in control and control is an illusion anyway. As for "responsible" if I (language) break into a store then clearly I am responsible - if a decision is made that affects others then the decision made is my (language) responsibility.

Ok. I understand the natural reluctance not to adopt a belief that 'I am not responsible for breaking into a store'. But could 'responsibility ' be like 'analysis' or, as you say, 'control '? On the face of it there is some 'responsible behaviour' but actually no doer of 'responsibility'? No self that is making responsibility happen? Could responsibility be another thing that is just flowing?

Jon

Hello Jon:

Yes. But if there is any confusion about this, is it possible to find an analyst analysing?'

No - it is simply analysis happening

Ok. I understand the natural reluctance not to adopt a belief that 'I am not responsible for breaking into a store'. But could 'responsibility ' be like 'analysis' or, as you say, 'control '? On the face of it there is some 'responsible behaviour' but actually no doer of 'responsibility'? No self that is making responsibility happen? Could responsibility be another thing that is just flowing?

Correct, perhaps I am confusing responsibility with accountability. I guess the sticking point on this is that if nobody is responsibility for actions then is there no sense of personal accountability? There is a moral compass that guides most people or I think people would act without regards to others, laws, etc. How does this work?

. Correct, perhaps I am confusing responsibility with accountability. I guess the sticking point on this is that if nobody is responsibility for actions then is there no sense of personal accountability? There is a moral compass that guides most people or I think people would act without regards to others, laws, etc. How does this work?

Please check with the direct experience.

In your own experience does it come naturally to want to be kind, not hurt others, not grasp or deceive?

Is it natural (to you) to behave without regard to others?

Jon.

In your own experience does it come naturally to want to be kind, not hurt others, not grasp or deceive?

Is it natural (to you) to behave without regard to others?

Yes, those things come naturally and no, it is not in my nature to behave without regard for others

So people simple are. The idea of responsibility is one those more sticky things that conditioning gives us. We are taught to be "responsible" or discerning ( to use another word).

I could exchange the phrase "what am I responsible for" with " what happens in which I am the controller" and there is full agreement that the answer is "nothing". So suspect it's just a language thing and the connotation that some word habitually carry.

Seeing is the best way for these things to fall away, it seems. Examine it through direct experience.

Hi James,

. Yes, those things come naturally and no, it is not in my nature to behave without regard for others

. Seeing is the best way for these things to fall away, it seems. Examine it through direct experience.

Definitely so. I'm not at all l surprised that its not in your nature to behave without regard for others.

. So people simple are. The idea of responsibility is one those more sticky things that conditioning gives us. We are taught to be "responsible" or discerning ( to use another word).

It would seem so. Yes. Its not that behaving well, kindly or fairly are not a very good idea.

But who or what could 'do' responsibility' ? Its possible to use the word 'responsibility' and understand it in a similar way to 'doing'. No doer can be found in reality but things get done. Car keys get found. Driving to the supermarket happens. So, 'responsibility' happens. (Or not, as may sometimes be the case). But never the entity that 'is responsible'?

Is it clear that there can only be ideas or thoughts ABOUT 'responsibility'?


Jon

But who or what could 'do' responsibility' ? Its possible to use the word 'responsibility' and understand it in a similar way to 'doing'. No doer can be found in reality but things get done. Car keys get found. Driving to the supermarket happens. So, 'responsibility' happens. (Or not, as may sometimes be the case). But never the entity that 'is responsible'?

Is it clear that there can only be ideas or thoughts ABOUT 'responsibility'?

Responsibility is really just a label then - something that happens. One thing we haven't touched on too much is Direct Experience - I've seen it mentioned on other threads and would like to go over it with you. How does Direct Experience fit into the entire equation about No-Self?

Hi James,

One thing we haven't touched on too much is Direct Experience - I've seen it mentioned on other threads and would like to go over it with you. How does Direct Experience fit into the entire equation about No-Self?

Sure. Well, you have mentioned it yourself a few times. I tend to find other ways to point to Direct Experience, such saying "what happens in the moment, the now, the here'. As such its exactly what appears as sensation right now, including thoughts. But not the content of thoughts. Not what thoughts 'say' about everything. You see the contrast?

Thoughts 'say' 'me, I, mine' and so on. The illusion of self appears. Examining direct experience allows for checking with what's really happening, and in the case of thought-stories, what's NOT actually happening.

Jon

Examining direct experience allows for checking with what's really happening, and in the case of thought-stories, what's NOT actually happening.

Is it safe to say, then, that the purpose of Direct Experience then is to help understand what is happening vs what we "think" is happening? That sounds like a basic question, I realize.

For example:
There is the feeling of being "slighted" in a matter - If I look at this through Direct Experience there are sensations such as a feeling of a weight on my chest and a general heaviness, almost like there is a sack of flower around my shoulders that I'm carrying.

I look for an "I" that was slighted and find none, yet the "feeling" or sensation is real

Hi James

My apologies today. I will post tomorrow morning.

Thank you

Jon

No worries, Jon - hope all is well :)

To add a bit more to what I posted:

I look for an "I" that was slighted and find none, yet the "feeling" or sensation is real. I recognize that the feeling is impermanent and, indeed, it does pass quickly enough.

It's a whole lot of "reminding" and "remembering" the truths about the lack of "I" and impermanence. There is also this feeling of wanting things to move more quickly and for this to be natural however then there is the reminder that this is looking to the future as opposed to living in the "now".

Just some thoughts....

Sorry James

I was feeling ill but better now. So...

Is it safe to say, then, that the purpose of Direct Experience then is to help understand what is happening vs what we "think" is happening? That sounds like a basic question, I realize.

That's Ok. This can be said about direct experience because noticing it does expose the way that thoughts create an illusion of experience, an illusion of 'self and 'other', or duality. The term 'direct experience' can be used to suggest some sort of special thing, even technique.

But in fact is there ever a moment that is not happening right now?

is it necessary to make unusual efforts to just notice what is already happening?

All best,

Jon