no self

[PauliePaul]

There are sensations. Wouldn’t it just be it? Sensation?
What about “bum, upper legs and back touching the sofa”?
Can a “bum” be felt? Can there be a direct experience of a “bum”? Or of a “Hinterteil”, of a “derriere” or “culo”?
These are all words for the same thing, different languages.
Why do you ‘feel’ a “bum” and not a “derriere”?
Play around with these different words and have a look.

I looked at this closely and slowly -in my favourite place for this - the bottom of our garden.
No, my bum can't be felt. There is just a sensation - bum, derriere etc. are labels that are added later by thought.

It 'felt' like it was bigger than me. Not just an individual sensation. But I am willing to admit that this is probably a thought!

Thoughts are sneaky little thingies. So when you look do you just find a sensation, or a sensation and several thoughts or only thoughts?

A sensation is what I find when I look. Thoughts come fairly quickly though to provide a name/label for the sensation. Today I slowed their progress down!

Since there is no separation there can’t really be an “it” which is bigger than a “me”, “it” and “me” would have to be two different things for one being bigger than the other, right?

Yes, for sure.

While the sensation, that what was felt might be accurate, “explaining” thoughts might not…….

Yes, the sensation actually felt generic/general rather than particular and individual.

Love,
Paul

[Jadzia]

There is just a sensation - bum, derriere etc. are labels that are added later by thought.

It is possible to get down to a raw sensation though thoughts turn up in a split second.
Thoughts ‘tell’ us what a sensation feels like, another interesting thing to have a close look at is:
Is there a connection between sensation and thought?

This is something which is generally assumed, that a thought can ‘trigger’ a sensation, or that a thought ‘knows’ about a sensation.
Is that really so?
Can a thought ‘trigger’ a sensation?
Does a thought ‘know’ about a sensation or vice versa?

Wouldn’t this mean that there is some kind of connection between these two, thought and sensation?
Wouldn’t it mean that some sort of mechanism would be needed which does the triggering?

Use your well honed ability to look at your actual experience and tell me what you find.

Love,
Jadzia

[PauliePaul]

This is something which is generally assumed, that a thought can ‘trigger’ a sensation, or that a thought ‘knows’ about a sensation.
Is that really so?
Can a thought ‘trigger’ a sensation?
Does a thought ‘know’ about a sensation or vice versa?

No, a thought cannot trigger a sensation.
Sensation comes first. With a careful focus it is possible to delay the thought telling us what the sensation 'is'. But the thought does still come. Sensation is sensation - our actual experience of being in the world. Thoughts provide a label/name or 'explanation' of the sensation. I am using inverted commas to suggest that this explanation may not be a useful one. But, in that a thought or thoughts follow a sensation, they seem to 'know' about it,

Wouldn’t this mean that there is some kind of connection between these two, thought and sensation?
Wouldn’t it mean that some sort of mechanism would be needed which does the triggering?

Sensation happens and this triggers a thought or thoughts.

Love,
Paul

[Jadzia]

Please describe how the connection between thought and sensation looks like or how it works.
Also describe where you find the mechanism which allows sensation to trigger thought.

Have a close look. Some things seem to have a logical explanation, but does that what logic describes exist?

Love,
Jadzia

[PauliePaul]

Please describe how the connection between thought and sensation looks like or how it works.
Also describe where you find the mechanism which allows sensation to trigger thought.

Have a close look. Some things seem to have a logical explanation, but does that what logic describes exist?

Sensation(s) happen - I am sticking to the act of sitting down on a sofa - memory thoughts are then 'triggered' and provide ideas about the sensations. At first, I thought it was labels/ names they provided but, upon closer inspection, it feels as if memories are 'triggered' of how this has felt before but NOT labels/names.

I can't tell if these thoughts are 'triggered' or just happen (and I don't know the difference between these two). It is possible that they are habitual - and therefore it is possible to not have them.

Love,
Paul

[Jadzia]

Isn't the difference between happening and triggering, that one happens without being kicked off by something and the other with?

Do thoughts need any triggering? Aren't they flowing any time?

Sometimes the description or explanation 'offered' are correct, but is it always the case?

Have a close look are all labels accurate, are all thoughts logical or make sense in the moment they appear?
Go and enjoy the fun search for the odd one, the thought which offers a description, label, explanation which doesn't really make any sense.

Love,
Jadzia

[PauliePaul]

Isn't the difference between happening and triggering, that one happens without being kicked off by something and the other with?

Yes, I just couldn't see that before. Of course it is.

Do thoughts need any triggering? Aren't they flowing any time?

I honestly don't know the answer to this question. Some thoughts seem to be triggered by sensations...that is happen in response to the sensation. As in my looking at sitting down on the sofa.

Sometimes the description or explanation 'offered' are correct, but is it always the case?

No, definitely not.

Have a close look are all labels accurate, are all thoughts logical or make sense in the moment they appear?
Go and enjoy the fun search for the odd one, the thought which offers a description, label, explanation which doesn't really make any sense.

I found this the most difficult of all the looking tasks you have asked me to do. Today I was at a music festival on my own so had lots of opportunities to have a look for such thoughts there. I had problems distinguishing between thoughts and feelings.
Thoughts I had seemed to have particular function - rationalizing or normalizing - and there were lots of 'colourful' people enjoying themselves at the festival in an 'irrational' way. As I said though,I am a little confused about which was thought and which was feeling.

Love,
Paul

[Jadzia]

Some thoughts seem to be triggered by sensations...that is happen in response to the sensation. As in my looking at sitting down on the sofa.

Don’t fall for thoughts.
If you can’t find anything which connects sensation and thought in your actual experience, even if you look closely, then the only thing you notice is a thought with a content, right?
A sensation can be noticed and a thought like “This very thought is in response to sensation” or “This thought is triggered by ……., or this reaction is triggered by thought.”

It comes down to believing or looking.
We are taught to believe thoughts. This is how teaching works, most of what “Paul” and “Jadzia” ‘know’ is simply believed, we haven’t experienced it ourselves.

As I said though,I am a little confused about which was thought and which was feeling.

Easy to understand. Actually this has somthing to do how language is used.
Let’s take the ‘feeling’ of ‘fear’ as example<.
A sensation is noticed/felt in the stomach region, this is first of all simply a raw sensation.
Added are a description, how does it feel (crampy, tight, empty) and a label, “Fear”. All thoughts.
This is what is generally called emotion or a feeling.

Can ‘fear’ be found in the sensation? Is this sensation ‘fear’? Or does it know anything about ‘fear’? No.
Can ‘fear’ actually be experienced? No, the AE of the label ‘fear’ is a thought.

What if there is a ‘feeling’ without a sensation? What is noticed in AE is a thought like “I feel this is odd” or “I feel caged”. These are AE of thought. Neither the ‘odd’ or the ‘caged’ can be found in AE.
So what is it? Thoughts, story.

Have another close looks at thoughts and share what you find.


Love,
Jadzia

[PauliePaul]

Some thoughts seem to be triggered by sensations...that is happen in response to the sensation. As in my looking at sitting down on the sofa.

Don’t fall for thoughts.
If you can’t find anything which connects sensation and thought in your actual experience, even if you look closely, then the only thing you notice is a thought with a content, right?
A sensation can be noticed and a thought like “This very thought is in response to sensation” or “This thought is triggered by ……., or this reaction is triggered by thought.”

As you said yourself in an earlier post, thought(s) seem to appear in a split second (after a sensation). There looks to be some relationship between sensations and thoughts.

As I said though,I am a little confused about which was thought and which was feeling.

Easy to understand. Actually this has something to do how language is used.
Let’s take the ‘feeling’ of ‘fear’ as example<.
A sensation is noticed/felt in the stomach region, this is first of all simply a raw sensation.
Added are a description, how does it feel (crampy, tight, empty) and a label, “Fear”. All thoughts.
This is what is generally called emotion or a feeling.

Can ‘fear’ be found in the sensation? Is this sensation ‘fear’? Or does it know anything about ‘fear’? No.
Can ‘fear’ actually be experienced? No, the AE of the label ‘fear’ is a thought.

What if there is a ‘feeling’ without a sensation? What is noticed in AE is a thought like “I feel this is odd” or “I feel caged”. These are AE of thought. Neither the ‘odd’ or the ‘caged’ can be found in AE.
So what is it? Thoughts, story.

However, there is actually a feeling/ emotion - which is labelled fear by thought. Anxieties, fear of the dark, fear of dying, fear of being killed by lions/ tigers - there are emotions here that are actually experienced. The labels provided by thought may not always be useful/ adequate - but there is an actually experienced feeling.

Best & Love,
Paul

[Jadzia]

As you said yourself in an earlier post, thought(s) seem to appear in a split second (after a sensation). There looks to be some relationship between sensations and thoughts.

Remember, right now we go for the heard, the seen, the tasted, the smelled, the felt (in the physical) and whatever can't be found is thought, does appear as content of such, right?
So please explain to me where do you find a connection between thought and sensation in AE? Strictly AE.

However, there is actually a feeling/ emotion - which is labelled fear by thought. Anxieties, fear of the dark, fear of dying, fear of being killed by lions/ tigers - there are emotions here that are actually experienced. The labels provided by thought may not always be useful/ adequate - but there is an actually experienced feeling.

I get where you are stuck. It partly has to do how we use language. What is needed right now is precision.

What is experienced when we talk about "feelings/ emotions"? Is there an "actually experienced feeling"?
What exactly is there? There is a raw physical sensation + a noticed thought.
Right, or do you find something else?
In the thought content one finds: the labeling as “feeling”, the description what it feels like, what it means.
Can you feel a label?

All of this, all these words/labels and meanings are acquired, learned. Words are helpful to understand and to express ourselves. So far so well.

Look at a baby which sees a smiling person for the first time - does it know what the meaning of the smile is?
Look at a baby with has a sensation in the belly, can it differentiate between “hunger” or “fear”? Or does it just feel a raw sensation?

Love,
Jadzia

[PauliePaul]

As you said yourself in an earlier post, thought(s) seem to appear in a split second (after a sensation). There looks to be some relationship between sensations and thoughts.

Remember, right now we go for the heard, the seen, the tasted, the smelled, the felt (in the physical) and whatever can't be found is thought, does appear as content of such, right?
So please explain to me where do you find a connection between thought and sensation in AE? Strictly AE.

The connection is that the thought does come after, sometimes immediately after, the sensation. With meditation or focussing the thought can be delayed or stopped. So, in actual experience, there isn't a proven link. There is no trigger.

What is experienced when we talk about "feelings/ emotions"? Is there an "actually experienced feeling"?
What exactly is there? There is a raw physical sensation + a noticed thought.
Right, or do you find something else?

I don't find anything else.

In the thought content one finds: the labeling as “feeling”, the description what it feels like, what it means.
Can you feel a label?[/quote
No, you can't feel a label.]

All of this, all these words/labels and meanings are acquired, learned. Words are helpful to understand and to express ourselves. So far so well.

Look at a baby which sees a smiling person for the first time - does it know what the meaning of the smile is?
Look at a baby with has a sensation in the belly, can it differentiate between “hunger” or “fear”? Or does it just feel a raw sensation?

It feels a 'raw sensation'. You are right. The baby example is a great one.

[Jadzia]

The connection is that the thought does come after, sometimes immediately after, the sensation. With meditation or focussing the thought can be delayed or stopped. So, in actual experience, there isn't a proven link. There is no trigger.

The idea of the connection is an idea established in thought. There is a thought “Sensation and thought are connected” or “Thought comes after sensation.” So everything noticed are thoughts about something.

Are thoughts alway after a sensation?
What about there being a thought first? Like “Oh, this food looks tasty” and a few moments later there is a sensation in the stomach region which is labeled “appetite” or “”hunger”?

Are you absolutely sure that you can delay or stop a thought with meditation or focusing?
Or is there a thought noticed and then another thought noticed “The last thought is stopped”?

What is experienced when we talk about "feelings/ emotions"? Is there an "actually experienced feeling"?
What exactly is there? There is a raw physical sensation + a noticed thought.
Right, or do you find something else?
I don't find anything else.

Right. Emotions and feelings are just sensation + thought. The kind of thought which points to something which is actually felt.
There might be lots of other thoughts too, describing, analyzing the sensation – thoughts pointing to thoughts, big story!

Have a close eye on these story teller thoughts, watch how they seemingly create the persona.

Love,
Jadzia

[PauliePaul]

The connection is that the thought does come after, sometimes immediately after, the sensation. With meditation or focussing the thought can be delayed or stopped. So, in actual experience, there isn't a proven link. There is no trigger.

The idea of the connection is an idea established in thought. There is a thought “Sensation and thought are connected” or “Thought comes after sensation.” So everything noticed are thoughts about something.

OK.

Are thoughts alway after a sensation?
What about there being a thought first? Like “Oh, this food looks tasty” and a few moments later there is a sensation in the stomach region which is labeled “appetite” or “”hunger”?

Of course thoughts don't always come after sensation. I was using the example I did of sitting down - sensation - thought.

Are you absolutely sure that you can delay or stop a thought with meditation or focusing?
Or is there a thought noticed and then another thought noticed “The last thought is stopped”?

Now you put it that way, I am not sure - it could be one thought 'replacing' another. This is something for me to investigate.

Right. Emotions and feelings are just sensation + thought. The kind of thought which points to something which is actually felt.
There might be lots of other thoughts too, describing, analyzing the sensation – thoughts pointing to thoughts, big story!

Have a close eye on these story teller thoughts, watch how they seemingly create the persona.

OK!

[Jadzia]

Now you put it that way, I am not sure - it could be one thought 'replacing' another. This is something for me to investigate.

Good idea - the investigating. ;-)

Observe thoughts again like a hawk.

Is there ever a break in the flow of thoughts?

How many ‘explanatory’ thoughts can be found? Is there ever a moment when no explanation is ‘given’?

Isn’t it so that in thoughts everything is possible and thoughts appear as omnipotent, as absolutely important? .........at least thoughts ‘say’ so, or? But are they really?

If there is no ‘I’ as controller, thinker, decider, what we try to prove here, how can the ‘I’ stop a thought?

If there is no ‘I’, how does it come that the story of the ‘I’ is so creditable?

Take all the time you need and investigate.

Love,
Jadzia

[PauliePaul]

Hi Jadzia,
I spent a good few hours on this.

Is there ever a break in the flow of thoughts?

No. I was surprised to find this.

How many ‘explanatory’ thoughts can be found? Is there ever a moment when no explanation is ‘given’?[/quote
All of them are explanatory/rationalizing, so no to the second question.

Isn’t it so that in thoughts everything is possible and thoughts appear as omnipotent, as absolutely important? .........at least thoughts ‘say’ so, or? But are they really?

I am not sure if 'everything is possible' in my thoughts. I may again be getting confused as regards thoughts and feelings but my upbringing didn't develop an 'anything is possible' vibe. Instead, it developed restrictive thoughts and feelings.

If there is no ‘I’ as controller, thinker, decider, what we try to prove here, how can the ‘I’ stop a thought?

It looks like it can't.

If there is no ‘I’, how does it come that the story of the ‘I’ is so creditable?

This is more difficult to answer using solely AE. Maybe because thoughts never stop, ie. they are ever present, they appear to be so important and therefore that there must be an important 'I' controlling them. All my other answers to this question depend upon thought...
A little bit of confusion here too.

Best & Love,
Paul