To be or not to be

[Katiebrown54]

Hi Tim


1.How do you feel?
2.What changes?
3.What stays the same?

1.the experience is one of feeling ‘no thing’ - empty...blank.,at the same time realising how pointless, waste of time, staying fixed in these emotions are.
Whilst seeing this clearly after this question from you, there was also awareness at the time that these emotions were surfacing which felt as if all this inquiry made little difference to habitual reactions unfortunately. Therefore recognising this unmet expectation was a disappointing realisation that even though awareness was there, the response remained ‘me’ in nature. As I have questioned from the beginning, can I be awake and still move through all these uncontrollable emotions.

2. What changes...
Your question last evening did switch the light on again to recognise the ‘me’ which is absent. It’s as if this comes into focus from time to time and then fades again. I haven’t had any ‘wow’ moments. Nothing really changes at all.

3. What stays the same...?
The feeling of an anti climax, thoughts and therefore emotions arising about a so called
‘me’ ...so frustrating! ‘Fetching chopping wood’ all over again.

Any chance you might share...yours/other’s experiences of this please?

[gondwana]

Hi Katie,

Please be aware, that there are no “levels” to achieve in this.
No steps of realisation.
Investigation happens only ever on the same simple basis of looking at what is here now.
There must be no attitude of “seen that already, done that already”.
Always look completely afresh, innocently at things and wonder. Like a little child looking at temple paintings.
Each time, something new may arise, so NEVER assume “done that already”. This is vitally important.


So tell me please, while looking at what is here now:

emotions were surfacing which felt as if all this inquiry made little difference to habitual reactions unfortunately

Do these habitual reactions belong to you?
Do they belong to anyone? Or do they belong to no one?

What HERE NOW is bothered by an appearance labelled “habitual reactions”?

Are “habitual reactions” considered a “bad” appearance?
If so, please look at that directly and tell me:
What exactly makes “habitual reactions” a “bad” appearance?

The feeling of an anti climax, thoughts and therefore emotions arising about a so-called
‘me’ ...so frustrating!

Are you frustrated by arising thoughts and emotions about a character called “friend”?
Are you frustrated by arising thoughts and emotions about a character called “stranger”?
Sure. Sometimes :-)
But generally, you're just okay with their arisal.
Their arisal is no problem for anyone, it just happens.
How then are arising thoughts and emotions about a character called “me” so frustrating?[/quote]

[Katiebrown54]

Hi Tim

No habitual reactions do not belong to a me...yes I see, they just arise!
They belong to no one...


What here now is bothered by habitual reactions?

Thought says its bothered... it attaches to the I thought which has then has the appearance that a me is bothered when me is actually absent.
( a question for you tim...) this is seen clearly when you ask the question ... but in the actual process it’s not??? Why?



“How are arising thoughts called frustration and emotions about a so called me, so frustrating?”

Mmm good question ...it’s just another arising emotion!! Oh boy...again it’s so clear in the here and now.

Something happens in the ‘gap’ between conversations with you 😱

[Katiebrown54]

Overlooked this question


Are “habitual reactions” considered a “bad” appearance?
If so, please look at that directly and tell me:
What exactly makes “habitual reactions” a “bad” appearance?

Habitual reactions are neither good nor bad appearances - such are labelled through thought which seemingly makes them so. All feelings arise without an ‘owner’ - once a me shows up it immediately identifies with this arising, and an automatic good or bad label is made by thought.

Thanks Tim

[gondwana]

Mmm good question ...it’s just another arising emotion!! Oh boy...again it’s so clear in the here and now.

Something happens in the ‘gap’ between conversations with you

So this is seen clearly when looking at the pointing.

Now, what happens exactly in this gap between?
Does something leave?
Or does something return?

And then, to what entity exactly, does this happen to?

[Katiebrown54]

Hi Tim ...

You ask?

“Now, what happens exactly in this gap between?
Does something leave?
Or does something return?

And then, to what entity exactly, does this happen?

1. What happens in the gap exactly? - thoughts/ emotions arise and an illusory ‘me’ reappears who claims these thoughts. Whilst this may be seen at the time and after, it does occur nevertheless. Going back to an earlier question, is this good or bad...the response is there is no inherent quality in what occurs in the gap, except when thought appears to label it so. So, there is only thought movement in the gap.

2. Does something leave? No
3. Does something return - yes more thought
4. What entity does this happen to...there is no person other than thought of a person it happens to seemingly ...there’s no entity

[gondwana]

1. What happens in the gap exactly? - thoughts/ emotions arise and an illusory ‘me’ reappears

This “illusory me”. What is it exactly?

[Katiebrown54]

Tim,

The illusory me remains as a thought only.

[gondwana]

When the thought of the "self" comes back up, during the gap, do you believe in it as a real thing at the time?

Or is it still seen to be just a thought at that time?

[Katiebrown54]

Hi Tim

Sometimes the thought is seen immediately and dropped, other times there is an awareness that thought is happening but there is still belief and on less occasions there is no awareness and only belief (ie during family dynamics). But even these beliefs are seen eventually but sometimes harder to drop.

[gondwana]

Well that actually sounds pretty good!

Is there still a problem remaining here for anyone?

[Katiebrown54]

Tim, you ask

Is there a problem remaining for anyone?

There is no ‘ anyone’ who can own a problem.
This is clear.

However...today feelings, thoughts arose. Awareness was present throughout. A sense of a ‘self’ was explored and not found. All these things happened simultaneously... nevertheless suffering was still experienced... there was presence and suffering seeming to exist concurrently.

So, you ask is there a problem...not for anyone in particular is the answer, but still strong emotions arose and the experience was no different from a place of ‘seeing’ than a place of ‘ no seeing.’ ‘Carry water, chop wood etc’

This seeing process feels like a ‘ non event.’ ?

[gondwana]

Dear Katie,

It is true that for some, realisation can happen with a 'pop'; while for others, it can be a slow slide into inevitability. This is just the way of things, we cannot predict nor control which will occur.

Not to diminish your experiences, but to perhaps offer a re-frame:

Consider for a moment, any TV series character. We would describe this person as 'virtual', i.e. they are not real. Emotional injury/suffering may appear to be inflicted on that person as we watch the show - and we may very well feel sadness at witnessing them. As soon as the TV is switched off though, it can be clearly seen that in fact, no actual suffering really occurred. Nothing real was altered, in any way. It never happened, because the supposed entity to which it happened simply never existed.

Now consider the thoughts/feelings/strong emotions which arose for you today - i.e., suffering. I am assuming this was purely emotions/feelings i.e. suffering, and no actual physical harm took place. (Please tell me immediately if this is incorrect!).
So firstly, suffering is itself virtual. Because nothing real was changed. Only stories in the mind, which as we have already seen are simply thoughts, i.e. not real.

Now, please take a look at what entity the emotional injury was inflicted upon?

This is also a virtual character! So now we have a virtual injury, inflicted upon a virtual character. It is not real, nothing real was ACTUALLY changed. Other than if you allow it to be, by continually BELIEVING that it has. This is the story we tell ourselves every day. "She did this to me, she said that. I am hurting now." This is suffering. It is a loop. It is not real.

Please consider this next question now. When you are asleep at night, is the suffering still occurring then?

No! It was never real, so it can only ever appear "real" while we are awake to think about it (the suffering loop). When you switch off the TV (i.e. go to sleep), it stops, because it was never real in the first place and needed a narrator to perpetuate the illusion.

Compare this to a broken leg. That is real, insofar as the body was damaged. When you sleep, the leg is still broken. You awake, and the physical injury still remains.

Yet in theory, we could awake with amnesia or a moment's forgetfulness, and the virtual injury (the emotional suffering) would be gone however.

----

To give you an another perspective, in Dzogchen Buddhism, we often use the metaphor of a polished mirror.

Reflections appear in the mirror, and they APPEAR to be real.
They appear to be an integral part of the mirror. But, they are not.
As soon as the object passes, the reflection disappears.
The mirror in fact remained unchanged throughout.
No reflection can ever alter the mirror, in any way whatsoever.

Awareness is like the mirror, and thoughts are like the reflections.
No matter how many thoughts you have, what kind of thoughts you have, or how long they remain for, the mirror - i.e. awareness - is never changed by it.

So thoughts, feelings, emotions, all suffering, they follow this same rule because they too are thoughts. They change nothing. Leave no permanent mark. The mirror is unchanged.

The only thing which can SEEM to remain, for what seems like a period of time, is chains of thoughts. One thought leading to another, to another, to another.......propagating the supposed suffering, by constantly re-telling the story.

Stop re-telling, and it ends.

----

So, you asked how it is for me.

A man stops me in the street and insults my appearance.
He insulted the body, but the body is simply something which is experienced in the now - that is not "me".
No injury, nothing harmed.

A woman stops me in the street and insults my 'personality'.
She insulted a virtual character that does not exist. That is not "me". Simply a bundle of stories, which tell of things that happened once upon a time, or things that might be wanted in a future personality, and so on.
No injury, nothing harmed.

A family member triggers some painful emotional conditioning.
They just activated some automatic programming. That is not "me". Simply layers of conditioning, put there over time, which no supposed "I" ever had any say over creating or curating anyway. (Sure, I may still be pragmatic and choose to use it as an hook for positive change, if so wished). But nothing changed, and the story need not be endlessly re-told on a loop. It just passes by, seen but not followed.
No injury, nothing harmed.

Sure sometimes, for some moments, an automatic reaction arises as the illusion begins to play again. Old habits die hard!

But once it has been seen that there is no self, that can NEVER be "un-seen".
So this illusion is quickly seen through, every time, again and again.

The process goes like: trigger -> reaction -> re-seeing -> non-stick;
Over time, more and more, the reaction part in the middle is just skipped automatically, straight to non-stick.
But at the start, yes, it requires looking again each time.

----

You may remember I said that the purpose of The Gate is to see that there is no self. This was already seen clearly, a few times now.

Something HAS changed. But it is so subtle, that for some people, it can be easily overlooked or thought to be nothing. Yet, this tiny little thing, is in fact the beautiful sublime thread hanging loose, which will cause the entire illusion to unravel! Do not overlook the little thread we have established here :)

Any time from now on out, when the suffering story begins to play, the big difference is that now you KNOW it is not real.
It is just a story, happening to a virtual character that never existed in the first place.
This character cannot be hurt, because it is not real!
The body can be physically hurt, but the "me" character cannot.

Remember, I also said is that this is just the beginning. From here on out, it is a process of releasing all long-held conditioning. This takes time - sometimes a little, sometimes a lot. Family conditioning in particular, is buried so deeply that it will take time to release and will only happen slowly, little by little.

The good news is, you can simply sit back and enjoy the show now! Simply watch everything that is not real, burn by itself.

My suggestion is this. Sit with the new perspectives I offered above. Simply test them out for yourself. Always look for yourself! Try them out in some new situations, every time these situations occur, and if it doesn't work the first time, persevere and try a few more times. It took me a few goes to get it to happen at the beginning.

Take some time to do that, maybe a couple of weeks if you need to. Write to me with your experiences as they happen.

You may write as often as you like during this time, just to rant about anything which changes, or seems different, or that just remains the same. But in all cases, just watch things burn, enjoy, and report if you feel inspired to. Be patient now :)

Kind regards,
Tim

[Katiebrown54]

Dear Tim

Thank you so very much for the effort and time you put into your last message.

It is quite moving to have ‘no self volunteers’ (haha) providing such support - it is surely appreciated. There have been times during this process when pulling ones hair Out might have felt less painful - so thank you

Moving on to your comments ..,

...........,......“Suffering is virtual”

- the frustration is that it doesn’t FEEL virtual...it FEELS real. When your adult child is in a bad way, pain is FELT even though you know a me doesn’t exist , even though you remain in presence, their energy is so powerful it feels as if it impregnates the body whether or not you label it a character or virtual etc.

So very stuck on this Tim...
Do you have any other suggestions on this point please?

On another note, there has been much ‘burning’ over time and it might be that this last challenge has been left til last - that’s why it feels so hard :)


Thank you for your encouragement, would like to report back ...there is definitely some ripening required!

[gondwana]

Ok please try what I suggested over the next few days, and meanwhile, I will see what comes up in response to your question on family.