Ending the constant searching

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Diana,

I wonder if part of that though is being more unfiltered and willing to express feelings

Ah yes. This certainly happens. i cried all through Shaun the Sheep (a kids comedy) when i took my grandson to the movies. ..and anger still erupts but is usually gone within seconds.

They are actually using this shaking method in some human therapies

Under 'normal' circumstances, we (humans) don't need to neutralize adrenaline like this. A deep breath will mostly be enough. Realizing that the trauma is over, would be enough. (although some might find it useful - everybody is different)
Where do we go from here ?
What is the 'strength' of the seeking for something new today ?

love

vince

[Trinidiana]

I’m awake, sometimes wish this could be real-time, i was browsing the forums and saw that you replied five mins ago....

[Trinidiana]

Now you are probably going to sleep, i have been waking up in the wee hours every night, some mights like this one i can’t go back to sleep.

I was thinking the same thing, where next to go? And now o have to wait a whole 24 hours for you to reply.

Seeking strength is 'STRONG'

THOUGHTS COME, WHY WHY CANT 'YOU' RELAX?

Didn’t mean for that to be caps but i think i will leave it. It is still for the most part an intellectual understanding of no i

Feelings come up Some people get this in two pages of posts, what is it with 'me'?

[Trinidiana]

When i woke a while ago, my mind drifted to thoughts of work, making a living , worrying about finances etc.

Even in the knowing of the pointlessness of these, they arise and then connect with feeling of anxiety.

I thought, though life is beautiful, it’s also hard and challenging. I can see why people can reach a point of hopelessness and feeling a lack of meaning.

Christmas is almost here again and part of me is so disinterested in going through the motions of it all.

Is this another ebb VInce? Ebb in the resistance level?

[Trinidiana]

So since seeking is still strong, no ease up, there is clearly a feeling of something incomplete, a sense of a separate self that won’t drop , yet i see this as all thoughts and stories too!

I believe there is an expectation that somehow i will know when I Have got it , really seen, be crystal clear like Ilona says.

I am at the point VInce that i know i can’t get this with the mind. But I’m floating above the ground still to use your analogy. I want to give up but it’s not happening.

The self Is just a continuous chain of thoughts, and i intellectually can see that the I thought is no more special or different then any others, they just arise, seeking just arises, it all just arises.

What wants it to stops. The nagging gnawing restlessness arises. Wanting to stop arises. Wanting to get this to awake arises. No one to awake.

I see that everything, every thing i construct of life and identity and this searching is ALL thought VInce

I am tired
Love
Diana

[vinceschubert]

Good morning Diana, Sleeping ended. It's 6:30 am. i read your posts. A feeling of disappointment appears fleetingly. A thought that Ilona might be better at this, flashes by. A thought "i don't know what to focus on, appears. Another one; "nothing to do now". i get up from the chair to make breakfast. An epiphany happens. MAKING BREAKFAST. YES!
Perhaps it's the addiction to thought that is the real issue. Not their (seeking) content.
The way to dissolve anxiety is to focus on the physical. Let's try this for 24 hours.
Every time a thought is recognized to be present, focus on what sensations are present. In particular the sensations from breathing. Allow the thoughts to pass through without engagement (except those useful ones)

love

vince

[Trinidiana]

Hi Vince,

I am sorry i missed you post until now, I️ have never got a message from you midday so i didn’t check and then now i checked and i saw your message, ...i had a nice day at home, my husband actually didn’t go to the restaurant, and its actually cold and we lit a fire and me and my husband played board games with our younger son and ordered Chinese, it was relaxing, got in a tiff with my mum on the phone and then recognized the story, had compassion for her and it ended nicely.

So my feelings upon reading your first paragraph were that I’m sorry to have disappointed you, I'm disappointed in myself, I️ felt bad and that I’m not good enough for this inquiry to work and all the general feelings of unworthiness and letting you down, i know silly but that’s what came to mind. Like I’m such a hard case and all that and you must be getting fed up and just wanting this to end. A feeling that you are ready to give up on me and feelings of sadness. A myriad of emotions, did i mention I’m sensitive?

But , enough, and moving on to the crux of your post, I️ Just want to make sure i have this straight, while you were making breakfast an epiphany happened, is that what you are saying?

And you are saying that out feel that it’s not so much the content of thoughts that arise in this body/mind, but just the fact that there is an addiction to thought, i find this a littler maybe a lot confusing, thoughts just arise, the brain is a thought making machine and i have no control over them, every inquiry that I️ have read seems to establish this fact , so what exactly is addicted to thoughts? The non self which doesn’t exist, the ego which doesn’t exist, or is that thoughts are just addicted to more thoughts in some kind of endless circular loop, can you clarify this for me a little more please?

Then uou say the way to dissolve anxiety is to focus on the physical, I️ do get that and do try at times, especially when I️ wake up , and breathing helps but then the focusing on the physical itself can lead to more anxiety as I️ notice things not quite right with the physical or things I️ want to change. In other words resistance. Lots of resistance to the physical.

Exercise is:

Every time a thought is recognized to be present, focus on what sensations are present. In particular the sensations from breathing. Allow the thoughts to pass through without engagement (except those useful ones)

Vince, i appreciate so much all you are doing for me and i want to try this but this seems near impossible. Every time a thought is recognized to be present you say, well that’s pretty much 24/7 and will be when a lot of activity is going on unless it’s when i am lying quietly .Thoughts speed by so fast VInce, they are constant. Ok, i think you mean when I️ recognize a thought and not when i am lost in though, because then i would obviously not be recognizing, however, i think i told you i fall into observer mode a lot, and i can be talking and conversing or whatever and be very aware of thoughts and thoughts on other conversations and be able to follow along with multiple conversations very easily , it’s like it’s hard for me to focus on one thought when it’s all spinning and a lot of time i am aware of the spinning so i am not actually totally lost but what you are asking unless i am meditating or alone seems impossible.




Like , Right now as i type this, there are a multitude of thoughts, is it that you want me to focus on one and see what sensations are present in the body or just generally, notice thinking and then focus on sensations. And do you mean just bodily sensations or do you mean actual perceiving with the senses such as hearing/seeing etc or do you want me to focus only on sensations in the body itself. Sorry if I️ am confused but I️ know you would want me to ask. The sensations in my body now that are present are usually the same ones all the time, i think, like right now, perceiving will always change obviously, like perception of thoughts, sight, typing, sound of AC and tv and silence and dog breathing and on and on.
Or of you mean focus solely on bodily sensations so right now and pretty much always for me it’s tension, tension and more tension, jaw stiff and in pain, jaw constantly clenching , i dont think this will change much, this is pretty much 24/7 for me VInce. I am a masseuses worse nightmare , i kid you not!

Sensations from breathing in particular you say, ok is it that by focusing on breath it just gets me out of thought, is that the purpose, like ok, right now, even though my jaw and neck are tense , my breathing is slow and relaxed. That sounds kind of like it can’t be true though, several times a day, i stop and breathe for a couple minutes and i like that, but that’s not what you are saying here is it.a

Vince , i will wait for your.
Reply tomorrow before i start this because i am confused and want to follow your instructions properly.

Love
Diana

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Diana, hmmm, sorry to be unclear.
The epiphany was to do the ordinary, (get breakfast) with complete focus.
To actively disengage with thoughts and focus on the physical. To be totally involved with the daily routines to the exclusion of thoughts.
If you can do this for 24 hours, you may see a more adaptive relegation for thoughts.
i do appreciate that many thoughts may suck you in, but each time that you realize that this has happened - disengage and watch your breathing. Count at least 5 long, slow breaths, then again focus on what the current activity is.

love

vince

[Trinidiana]

It popped into my head in the night that the epiphany was to do something physical and make breakfast as opposed to engaging in thoughts and that perhaps you. Then were suggesting something similar.

I will try what you suggest. I don’t think i can perform a task fully without thought, not without having to use some type of tool which will end up being a labeling of some sort. Like for example, if say i am brushing teeth, my mind will drift and i would need something to ground me like noticing the physical activity, like water flowing , hand moving, sound of electric toothbrush, breathing, etc. impersonal and body related. Is this ok? You say exclusion of thoughts and this may be possible for you but i am not sure i could do this. Even while i am making coffee my mind would be drifting. But i get the point and will try my best

Will let you know. Think i will be doing a lot of breathing.
Love diana

[vinceschubert]

Good morning Diana,

to do something physical and make breakfast as opposed to engaging in thoughts

Yes, that's it.
To have a little rave on this...
DON'T MEASURE SUCCESS OR failure !!
We are learning a new skill. It will take time to develop.
Encourage thought intentions. (useful thoughts here) but don't invest in them.
If they happen, then feel good that they did. (even smile) Then let them go.
We are not in control, we are just putting ourselves in the way of the circumstances. (seemingly)
As a kid, (i remember) I decided that what went on in my mind was far more interesting (and safe) than what was happening in the 'real' world. It was obviously a coping mechanism. It worked.
To quote (paraphrase) someone; "but now it's time to put away, that which worked as a kid"
Well, not exactly..
Now i recognize that even the non verbal(ized) thoughts are story, and that these are the creation events for the literal making of the (apparent) objective world.
So, frivolous mind wanderings are somewhat irresponsible. (be careful what you wish for)
Though they seem harmless and are certainly entertaining, their consequences are far reaching.
Remember, focussing on the physical is just a technique to allow the thoughts to finish their flow without engagement.
It breaks the cycle of one thought begetting the next one.

love

vince

[Trinidiana]

Hi Vince,


What!! i missed another during the day list from you, i was actually on my computer around that time, finishing off some work before we went by my parents,but i didn’t think to check!

Soooooo... while i was chopping veggies to cook and other things today, i really tried to stay more in the moment,and i realised how much i actually disconnect, always have a podcast or a distraction on... have set it up so that nearly all tasks can have this distraction, wow!


I did catch myself many times and did focus on sensations and did breathe , and it was pleasant and grounding and i realised that for me it is really hard to be in the physical only and not in the mind.. thinking is always there....

And, With today’s technology, it’s actually so easy to never be in silence etc ,so it becomes even harder to really focus on a task .And the mind always wants to be occupied, it’s incredible really! Always onto the next thing! You must see this surely in your family and grandchildren, no? And , not sure how Australia where you live is, but this big US of A is sooooo plugged in, wow!


Vince, Can you really fully focus on making breakfast without thought interruptions? Or other physical tasks?

Hmm, so, kid coping mechanisms, I don’t consciously know what mine were , but know i had many , i was in my mind too for sure because i always had a good mind and also loved to hide in my self in a way, insecurities and quick to shame and embarrassment and hurt, though not the same now , some of it to this day lingers. Wow!

[auote]
Now i recognize that even the non verbal(ized) thoughts are story, and that these are the creation events for the literal making of the (apparent) objective world.
So, frivolous mind wanderings are somewhat irresponsible. (be careful what you wish for)[/quote]

Interesting , this seems once again to make me think of the power of beliefs and thoughts and manifestation and all of that ... You said LITERAL making of the apparent objective world, that’s a pretty powerful statement!

The Stories we tell ourselves create Our Reality? In this apparent world? And you say the consequences are far reaching?

Deep words here VInce, and also this is pretty deep ....

[auote]Remember, focusing on the physical is just a technique to allow the thoughts to finish their flow without engagement.
It breaks the cycle of one thought begetting the next one. [/quote]

I could think a lot on this.....

Focusing on the physical means not ignoring our thoughts or in anyway try to stop them , or judge them, but instead just to let them do their thing, go their way, and not get engaged, i like the way you said this VInce , very helpful, because i can so easily either get caught up in blame or thinking there’s something i have to accomplish, and on and on, so this was cool and useful, just go with the flow, relax, let them be! Just don’t engage, like a harmless three year old who chatters away, ha ha though i would obviously knowing me totally engage with the three year old because i love chatty kids and want to engage their sweet little brains most of the time, so forget that example lol


IT BEGETS THE CYCLE OF ONE THOUGHT BEGETTING THE NEXT ONE

ok, so this was very interesting to me because i had actually drafted something to you earlier but then did not send it because i thought you might think especially in light of the exercise you gave me to do that i might be going off on a cerebral tangent, but this is so related.

Ok , so i lost what i wrote, sigh, so i guess i am supposed to write it again.

I️ think you are saying by allowing the thoughts to flow throughnaxtuall6nmeans they are less sticky and earlier today in the post i didn’t send , so i was asking you about the fact that even though thoughts don’t think, they seem to be linked, like think of the way our brain connects thoughts, so think 'dog', what s the first world that comes to mind, bark, sniff, happy, my dog slate, pit bull, huskie, and on an and on and also if i did this exercise again I️ would come up with totally different things, as would you of course, everyone’s connect the dot thoughts would be different because thoughts just pop up. So thoughts don’t think but they seem to connect to other thoughts because of conditioning , neural wiring and on and on,


So, getting back to the 'I' thought, everything to do with the I️ and the construct of the self, eg diana, is seen to be 100 percent thought, without a doubt, and m I️ was thinking about memories and the fact that pretty much when humans begin to 'store' memories, at around three or four years old, that really what they are is just this mechanism of the i and the ego, they are really really not real. Just these connected (not sure how they connect ) story and stories and on and on for our life, staggering to think about !


Ok, so what am i asking you, all these all pervasive thoughts, these i thoughts and mental personality constructs, which are constantly changing are definitely not real, i get that and focusing on the physical certainly seems to give less power to them, but, because these thoughts tie together so much and 'connect', it makes it almost so that it can be believed that some thoughts are thinking, like the i thought, and when me, we, one, a person is lost in thought, this is what is happening, and creates this illusionary I that the imaginary construct then defends to the death so to speak!

So anyway, will continue with your exercise and hopefully thoughts will beget less thoughts...
Thanks Vince always for your unconditional kindness and time that you constantly share with me!!

Love, D

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Diana,

have set it up so that nearly all tasks can have this distraction, wow!

Yes, wow!
Now it's not that this is wrong. For those invested in strengthening their ego, this stuff can be very useful.
For us the consequences is that we are diverted from our intentions.

for me it is really hard to be in the physical only and not in the mind.. thinking is always there....

Yes, The mind is an amazing tool, but it's time we stopped using it for the wrong job.

the mind always wants to be occupied,

Oh, it will continue to be occupied. Just in a different way. Many useful mind works will happen in the background. Beneath awareness.
The distraction that you have become addicted to, is like using the most powerful computer in the world as a calculator.

Vince, Can you really fully focus on making breakfast without thought interruptions?

No, but when they happen, a little alarm goes off (usually)

You said LITERAL making of the apparent objective world, that’s a pretty powerful statement!

It's a belief. ..backed up by quantum science and neuroscience. It's a useful story (is the story i tell myself)

So thoughts don’t think but they seem to connect to other thoughts because of conditioning , neural wiring and on and on,

Yes.

that really what they are is just this mechanism of the i and the ego, t

Certainly for the majority this is the case. Where we seek acceptance (approval ?) it becomes this way.

this is what is happening, and creates this illusionary I that the imaginary construct then defends to the death

Yes, but if it is clearly realized that it is a real story of an I, then there is no need to defend it. We can just rewrite the character to work around potential problems.

So anyway, will continue with your exercise and hopefully thoughts will beget less thoughts...

Let's no invest too much in the hope and more in the interested observer. ..anyway, good intentions.

love

vince

[Trinidiana]

Hi Vince , just woke up and i checked to see if you posted and you hadn’t yet so i decided to look att Jam's site again and i found this amazing article. https://janfrazierteachings.com/timeles ... #more-8240

It’s perfectly related to our topic. Now i see you posted and i am off to read your post now but wanted to share. It’s kind of long, i think it’s how you live life, it definitely gave me a glimpse and also how i DONT live like this, how much i lIVE in my head, wow!

[Trinidiana]

Hi Vince

Sorry i didn’t reply yesterday, i had a long busy day and had to take my mother and cat to the vet and came home quite late. My mother surely gives me many opportunities to observe, both her stories and my reactions.

Nothing much to report though, noticing how many thoughts there are all the time, noticing daily tasks, breathing. Will continue today. Got lost sometimes and tried not to be too effortful just notice when I️ was lost. Need to practice more, one day not enough. Realised we are going in the right direction, since i understand it all intellectually what remains is to be present and aware and observing and noticing and looking .


A couple comments from your post.

Yes, The mind is an amazing tool, but it's time we stopped using it for the wrong job.

Yes its true. Mental addiction is rampant in the world, and every year as technology improves, it seems to increase. Thinking about it all, ha ha , I️ know, this is using mind again, this is the biggest 'Hurdle' so to speak as i notice how most of the time im not in the now. Fleeting moments yes. Every time i hear hawks overhead, which i just did, for that moment, it brings me to just simply being, watching animals too, it so clear why the advice is really to be in nature. Anyway... all are thoughts are draining and exhausting and no doubt lead to tension

Oh, it will continue to be occupied. Just in a different way. Many useful mind works will happen in the background. Beneath awareness.
The distraction that you have become addicted to, is like using the most powerful computer in the world as a calculator.

Hmm, that’s a powerful sentence about the calculator, so all the mentalizing , (i invented that word I️ think lol) , it’s not using the mind properly, wow. It’s a waste! I wonder if hardly anyone knows what it’s like for the mind to be used like this ...even how you sentenced it as being in the background, currently it’s definitely in the foreground and Awareness way in background. Fascinating to grok whats possible.

Yes, but if it is clearly realized that it is a real story of an I, then there is no need to defend it. We can just rewrite the character to work around potential problems.

Another interesting line, i realise that you approach things quite differently in a way from most of the guides or at least with me you do, maybe because you’re spontaneous. Your guiding is organic and not rigid. Anyway, no complaints at all on this end. ;)

Sooo, i think you meant to say just story not real story, did you, trying to understand, or are you saying the story is a real story about imaginary stuff?

If we are not caught up in I there is no need to defend it, yes , agreed and that would be total freedom!

Rewriting the character is somewhat like your previous fascinating comment about bending objective reality. You didn’t use the word bending but that came to mind. Hmmm..Something i would like to explore more this rewriting of the character.. or is this what i am doing already?

Ok VInce. Hope all, is well with you , talk soon

Love diana

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Diana,

Sorry i didn’t reply yesterday,

No worries.

Got lost sometimes and tried not to be too effortful just notice when I️ was lost.

That's the go. ..be relaxed and remember to celebrate with a smile.

Need to practice more,

Yes, we need weeks of it to establish habit.

Realised we are going in the right direction,

This is big. (excellent)

Every time i hear hawks overhead, which i just did, for that moment, it brings me to just simply being, watching animals too,

Yes, good one. i also use queues and red traffic lights to trigger watching the breathing. (and talking about it)

so all the mentalizing , (<-- good word) , it’s not using the mind properly,

Well, the calculator analogy makes it see like a underutilization of a resource, but actually it's much worse that that. It is an active corruption of the system. It might seem benign, but it invariably leads to stress. It might be a survival thing from primitive times, but the tendency to go 'glass half empty' is much stronger than 'glass half full'.

are you saying the story is a real story about imaginary stuff?

Yes. ..and further, there are real effects from the imaginary stuff.

Something i would like to explore more this rewriting of the character.. or is this what i am doing already?

Absolutely. The story of Diana has been written since you were an infant. It has had new chapters added regularly and modification happened with every experience. A lot of what we are doing now is updating stuff that we no longer need, or stuff that has had negative consequences.
The new Diana won't be a stress head and won't have to pretend that she isn't one.
You may find that people around you will either resist your changing and even pressure you to go back to the way you were, or they will continue to relate to their image of you and be in denial of any change. Either way it is amusing to see how others behave in the dream.

love

vince