Take two!

[Matthew]

Yes, I can drop all these ideas and, for awhile, its a relief (I just did that). But then of course, after awhile they arose again.

If they come back, just drop them again. And if you can, drop also the idea about that, what would do the dropping!
You saw the lightness of being without reliance upon ideas and assumptions.
Lightness because you dropped just that: Baggage. Burden.

There is no "one" who gets mesmerized. There is just focus on the thought story.

Yes! Focus can wander to all sorts of things. It can go to a picture, a sound, to thought... whatever!
Is that a problem per se?
Is there anything or anyone that could be disturbed by that?
How would you know about "I am disturbed by that"? What only could tell a story about that?

[Bobf]

Yes! Focus can wander to all sorts of things. It can go to a picture, a sound, to thought... whatever!
Is that a problem per se?
Is there anything or anyone that could be disturbed by that?

When there is exclusive focus on the thought story (for example if the story is about something unpleasant that happened), there is often suffering. Although like the old Buddhist quote "There is suffering but no one who suffers".

How would you know about "I am disturbed by that"? What only could tell a story about that?

Thoughts arise that say "I am disturbed by that". There may be no self that generates those thoughts, but it sometimes doesn't feel that way.

Bob

[Matthew]

...there is often suffering. Although like the old Buddhist quote "There is suffering but no one who suffers".

What is it?
Telling yourself that it is like that when it's not clear is just feeding a belief. And this is the very hindrance of it becoming actuality.
There might be a profound knowing that it is true. But as long as it is not clear, please refrain from utilising it as an appeasing belief!

There may be no self that generates those thoughts, but it sometimes doesn't feel that way.

Without thinking about it, but by LOOKING at it:
What is the difference between a "deliberate thought" and another thought? What can be observed?
Is there an actual difference, or is it just the content that's different?
What tells there is a difference?

[Bobf]

...there is often suffering. Although like the old Buddhist quote "There is suffering but no one who suffers".
What is it?

Not sure what you're asking.

Telling yourself that it is like that when it's not clear is just feeding a belief. And this is the very hindrance of it becoming actuality.
There might be a profound knowing that it is true. But as long as it is not clear, please refrain from utilising it as an appeasing belief!

Occasionally there is a "knowing that it is true", but its occasional and not usually "profound". In terms of not using statements like the one I quoted above as "appeasing beliefs", I just want to be sure what you mean. For example, there's an LU app on my phone that I occasionally look at. It has various statements about there being no self which I find helpful to glance at every once in a while. I guess you're saying that reading things like that shouldn't be a substitute for LOOKING...

Without thinking about it, but by LOOKING at it:
What is the difference between a "deliberate thought" and another thought? What can be observed?

When I try to think of something deliberately (for example, I just tried to visualize a red guitar), there is a sense of tension and focus accompanying the image. Other thoughts just arise without any tension/focus.

Is there an actual difference, or is it just the content that's different?

There's no difference in the content of the thoughts - just images or words appearing.

What tells there is a difference?

When I try to think a deliberate thought, it feels like there is an "I" trying to produce the thought. I've looked at this carefully in the past though and realized that just because there is an experience of tensing and focusing, it doesn't mean there's anyone doing this.

Bob

[Matthew]

I guess you're saying that reading things like that shouldn't be a substitute for LOOKING...

Exactly. There are libraries of material out there. One part of that library is the LU-App. Although it can also show how looking works, the foremost reason it has it to arouse a desire for truth behind all that theatrical play. Now we are here looking as directly at it as it gets. That's why I'd like to ask you to put aside all books and apps, which tell how things are. We are definitely speaking of the same thing.
There has to be no doubt about it.

I've looked at this carefully in the past though and realized that just because there is an experience of tensing and focusing, it doesn't mean there's anyone doing this.

Good! We can look at this again if needed.

When I try to think a deliberate thought, it feels like there is an "I" trying to produce the thought.

Can you observe this "I" in isolation? Can you look at it closely?
What exactly is this "I" in direct experience that apparently tries to produce thoughts?
What does it consist of? What is it made of?
Is it something above or beside thoughts? Or is it itself a thought?

[Bobf]

I

guess you're saying that reading things like that shouldn't be a substitute for LOOKING...
Exactly. There are libraries of material out there. One part of that library is the LU-App. Although it can also show how looking works, the foremost reason it has it to arouse a desire for truth behind all that theatrical play. Now we are here looking as directly at it as it gets. That's why I'd like to ask you to put aside all books and apps, which tell how things are. We are definitely speaking of the same thing.
There has to be no doubt about it.

Got it.

When I try to think a deliberate thought, it feels like there is an "I" trying to produce the thought.
Can you observe this "I" in isolation? Can you look at it closely? What exactly is this "I" in direct experience that apparently tries to produce thoughts?
What does it consist of? What is it made of?
Is it something above or beside thoughts? Or is it itself a thought?

As I mentioned, when I try to deliberately produce a thought (I just tried doing it for awhile), there is a feeling of tension and focused attention. There is the sense that there is a "center" from which effort is emanating. This sense certainly isn't a direct perception (e.g. sight, sound, etc.). I don't think its a thought. Hard to put into words what the experience is.

Bob

[Matthew]

Trust fully on what you unobstructedly see in your direct experience.
And if you cannot find a certain thing after looking for it deliberately, this should ring a bell.

Keep looking at this tension.
Is it a sensation? Is it a sensation accompanied by a thought?
Does this tension itself have any meaning? Or is it again thought, which suggests that this tension has something to do with anything?

Can you look more closely at this "center"?
Is it a thought? Is it a thought accompanied by a sensation?
Does this center really exist as a phenomenon in and of itself? Or is it again thought suggesting in a subtle way:
"There is a center and from this center effort is emanating"?

[Bobf]

Trust fully on what you unobstructedly see in your direct experience.
And if you cannot find a certain thing after looking for it deliberately, this should ring a bell.

Keep looking at this tension.
Is it a sensation? Is it a sensation accompanied by a thought?
Does this tension itself have any meaning? Or is it again thought, which suggests that this tension has something to do with anything?

Can you look more closely at this "center"?
Is it a thought? Is it a thought accompanied by a sensation?
Does this center really exist as a phenomenon in and of itself? Or is it again thought suggesting in a subtle way:
"There is a center and from this center effort is emanating"?

This is the heart of it, so rather than giving a quick look, I'd like to spend some time doing what you've suggested. Will respond either late today or tomorrow.

Bob

[Matthew]

Take as much time as you need! And do the looking in a relaxed way.

[Bobf]

Trust fully on what you unobstructedly see in your direct experience.
And if you cannot find a certain thing after looking for it deliberately, this should ring a bell.

Keep looking at this tension.
Is it a sensation? Is it a sensation accompanied by a thought?
Does this tension itself have any meaning? Or is it again thought, which suggests that this tension has something to do with anything?

Can you look more closely at this "center"?
Is it a thought? Is it a thought accompanied by a sensation?
Does this center really exist as a phenomenon in and of itself? Or is it again thought suggesting in a subtle way:
"There is a center and from this center effort is emanating"?

Its funny - I did this exercise (I spent quite awhile on it) before seeing your message that i should "look in a relaxed way". I think that may be the key for me. When I did the exercise, I think I was trying too hard. I was aware of the tension I referred to and this feeling of focus from a center. It doesn't make sense that "tension" could be a self that is thinking thoughts, seeing, hearing, etc., but its hard for me to detect the subtle thought that may be accompanying the tension ("this tension is my self"). I end up with a feeling of stuckness.

On the other hand if I stop "trying" and look for a self in a relaxed way, its quite different - I don't think I find anything but space. But I want to keep practicing this to see if any sense of certainty arises.

Bob

[Matthew]

That's right.
Relaxation and a playful curiosity is the best foundation for looking. Keep digging and tell me what can be observed!

As a side note:

I end up with a feeling of stuckness.

Is there really a phenomenon of stuckness? Does stuckness really exist in and of itself?
Or are there thoughts ABOUT stuckness?
Thoughts about "I am stuck." ; "There is stuckness right now"

[Bobf]

That's right.
Relaxation and a playful curiosity is the best foundation for looking. Keep digging and tell me what can be observed!

I've started!

As a side note:
I end up with a feeling of stuckness.
Is there really a phenomenon of stuckness? Does stuckness really exist in and of itself?
Or are there thoughts ABOUT stuckness?
Thoughts about "I am stuck." ; "There is stuckness right now"

When i was trying too hard (a couple of days ago), physical feelings arose accompanied by thoughts like "this is hopeless". Stuckness was just a label that I used to describe those feelings/thoughts.

Bob

[Matthew]

Stuckness was just a label that I used to describe those feelings/thoughts

Good observation!

Here is a very basic instruction on how to look at thought. It might be helpful at this point:

The following does not tell how things are.
The following might only be understood as a pragmatic instruction, an approach, a skillful means for learning how to look at thought.
For this purpose alone though, it may serve:

The content of vision is in constant flux. The objects in sight are moving around for the most part of the day, either when they are moving themselves or when when the body moves, which also brings the objects in apparent movement.
But you can stop for awhile, pick one object like a candle and look at it.
Try it, do it with any object you like. So now, you are sitting here, looking continuosly and vigilantly at the candle.

In the same way, the mental content (thought) is in constant flux for the most part of the day. One thought is appearing, another one is disappearing.
But you can stop for awhile, bring up one thought like the picture of a candle and look at it.
Try it, do it with any object you like. So now, you are sitting here, looking continuosly and vigilantly at the thought candle.

This is what we mean with looking at thought.
It is not too hard, not too subtle and not too complicated.
Practice that for some time and you will see that you can look like that at any thought. Also the ones that are not brought up deliberately.
Foundation for any kind of excercise should always be relaxation and a playful curiosity. If you notice stress and a tightening up, leave the excercise for awhile and do it again at a better time.

If there seems to be any difficulty, if you need any further assistance with the current questions, just tell me.

[Bobf]

Here is a very basic instruction on how to look at thought. It might be helpful at this point:

I tried the exercise (looking at an object for awhile and then looking at a thought image for awhile) - it was interesting. I'm a meditator, so I've had a lot of practice at that.

I'm continuing to do 2 things during the day:
1. Deliberately conjuring up the self feeling and LOOKING at it.
2. Asking myself (as I go through my day): is there a self right now? or "is there a self controlling things right now.

I tend to get caught up in my day at work and forget to do this, but I'm trying to do it more often.

Bob

[Matthew]

I'm continuing to do 2 things during the day:
1. Deliberately conjuring up the self feeling and LOOKING at it.
2. Asking myself (as I go through my day): is there a self right now? or "is there a self controlling things right now.

Build in a third step there!

3. Can that what is asking these questions right now, can that what is doing the investigation right now, can that what is doing the looking right now also be observed?

If yes:
What is it made of? Is it a thought? Is it a sensation? Can a sensation do anything? Could a thought by itself do this investigation? Or is it -again- a thought ABOUT a something that would be doing the looking?

If not:
Couldn't that count as a hint that there is actually no one and no thing doing the looking?
Could it be that there is no one doing the looking? Could it be that there is just looking right now?