The Gate

Hi Samu,

What is the meaning of life? Why is my baby crying, what’s wrong with him? Why am I feeling anger when my spouse is giving me a hug? Why is there individual experiences? Why are thoughts seen by a single person and sometimes by two persons? The questions are endless, why do you care? I could go on for hours but since there are no answers - why bother?

Okay I see, thank you for explaining more.
-Does it seem that life doesn't already have meaning? Is something missing from this moment?
-What would happen if these thoughts weren't answered, if you just let them rise and pass?

Hug,
Wesley

-Does it seem that life doesn't already have meaning? Is something missing from this moment?
-What would happen if these thoughts weren't answered, if you just let them rise and pass?

I don’t know about meaning. Can't even define it. Only a thought can say something is missing. Nothing would happen, endless thoughts, with or without ‘answers’.

Hi Samu,

So is there anything left that is unclear?

What is the meaning of life?

I don’t know about meaning.

What changed?

Hug,
Wesley

So is there anything left that is unclear?

Nope.

What is the meaning of life?
I don’t know about meaning.
What changed?

Nothing really, you asked about the questions that keep being generated. That was just one example from the endless river of thoughts. And I never have known the answer to that since it can’t be known I think. Maybe I’ll ditch the word ‘unclear’ since it’s causing us trouble. I’ll call it ‘unanswered’ instead.

Hi Samu,

If you don't mind, I would like to for a moment put aside the guiding format we've been using so I can get a better idea of where you're at and what's going in.

My job is to ask you questions and try to point in your experience so you can see through the illusion of the separate 'me'. However, what happens after seeing this can vary from person to person. Some people feel at peace and that there's nothing more to do. Others continue inquiring. For some there is a honeymoon period of peace, for others it actually intensifies emotions, or some form of suffering. I may have already mentioned that seeing through the illusion of a separate self doesn't mean you are going to accept life as it happens.

The reason I say this is because it seems to me you have seen through the illusion and you also say there isn't anything left that is unclear - that is great. What I'm wondering is where you are emotionally, in your thoughts, in your relationship with life.

Does your thoughts say one thing and your experience say another? For example, do your thoughts say "there is no self" but your experience of life suggest that you are separate from life, that there is something left to seek?

As I see it, the seeking mechanism is the most noticeable indicator of a shift. Is there still some form of seeking going on, or is there a recognition that there's only life happening right now with no controller/entity in control of it?

Would you like to continue this dialogue or do you feel otherwise?

Hug,
Wesley

Hey Man!

I don’t envy your job as a coach since I think it’s pretty much impossible to determine for sure if someone has ‘gone through the gate’ or not through writing. We’d have to debate endlessly to even sort of know that the same concepts refer to the same things/experience for both of us. Anyone could give the technically right answers. However, I’ll keep on writing since I guess that’s the only option at this point.

Relief from the intense and very unpleasant sensations that keep occurring would be great. Perhaps layers are peeling of every now and then and it’s hard to say if I’m getting anywhere. Or if I should get ‘anywhere’. And I can’t know that it’s possible to not feel what I’m feeling and even if it is, perhaps it’s beyond the curriculum of this guidance?

Self or no self, those reactions are occurring and life in total peace would be great (a thought said that like always). But only a thought says it’s possible, I haven’t experienced it ‘personally’. By the way, It’s hard to come up with words that point to something tangible if there’s no me, no we, nothing but ‘oneness’. If even that. But I guess we have to use something. I can use the word “I” not knowing where it points. Or the word ‘Samu’ and also not knowing where that points. So it feels kinda stupid to use any words at the moment. Blaah. Frustration steps in…

What is confusing is that there are these bodies that all have individual experience. But no experiencer. And no ‘I’. That doesn’t compute well, no separateness but yet some sort of compartmentalized pieces of awareness. That was a thought by the way ;) I don’t know what that 'I' is and only a thought can say that fingers are typing a message or that the body is typing a message, or that typing happens.

Yes, life is hard to accept at times. And ’suffering’ emotionally or resistance, anger, frustration, having my own way or being pissed has intensified. Desires and preferences are still in place. Feeling of not being enough, shame, guilt, unsafe/insecure… all those come up as before if not more. I was hoping that they’d just release and then be done with. But yea, shouldn’t have any expectations…

So feeling like ‘was that it’? Is there more? Can I go forward somehow (what is forward)? Confused and sort of lost would be my description of where I’m at. Or Samu is at. Or experience of life is at from the perspective of this body that can be called whatever. But then that would suggest that the body owns or records the experience and that can’t be proven. Lost the words again. What do I point at when I say where I’m at? This is getting crazier and crazier. Bollocks. Laughter happens as this is just absurd. I can’t use language very effectively if subject/object is the same, right?

Wesley guides Samu. Wesley = a thought, Samu = a thought. So is a thought guiding a thought? Seriously what the bleep?! Or nothing guiding nothing? Or guidance happening but to no-one? If some person goes through the gate, what has gone through the gate? The body? A thought? A mind? The one and only mind?

Can you define the seeking mechanism a bit more? I’m not sure if I got it. I’m not seeking gurus or spiritual bs-masters anymore that can give me some more meditation tactics or beliefs or information on enlightenment or anything like that. Nor am I joining cults ever again. Still I was expecting some sort of fulfillment or that deep inner peace and acceptance that I’ve had some experiences of, lasting up to some hours or even a day.

Is this writing helpful for our guidance in any way?

So can ‘you’ (whatever that points to, don’t ask me…) see where Mr. Whatever is at at the moment? Oh yeah and time doesn’t exist either. So ditch the moment too…. S.O.S.!!

Sincerely,
don’t have a clue

Hi Samu,

Wow big post, thank you for all your honesty and writing here. Whatever you are experiencing and feeling, that's where you are. As i'm sure you know, often we don't understand it until later.

I don’t envy your job as a coach since I think it’s pretty much impossible to determine for sure if someone has ‘gone through the gate’ or not through writing. We’d have to debate endlessly to even sort of know that the same concepts refer to the same things/experience for both of us. Anyone could give the technically right answers. However, I’ll keep on writing since I guess that’s the only option at this point.

Well, it is really just about you and what you think and feel. If you feel 100% clear, then that's that. This is really more of an intuitive thing though, we can debate endlessly sure, but there isn't really a need. Look at your own experience at what's true and trust that, I think it's a beautiful thing one can gain from the direct pointing. Now, within your own experience of course there are layers of illusion, as there is also reality to be seen, but I think it's easier to weed through this and see clearly once you're really trusting your own experience.

Relief from the intense and very unpleasant sensations that keep occurring would be great. Perhaps layers are peeling of every now and then and it’s hard to say if I’m getting anywhere. Or if I should get ‘anywhere’. And I can’t know that it’s possible to not feel what I’m feeling and even if it is, perhaps it’s beyond the curriculum of this guidance?

I have my perspective on this and of course it could be wrong, but I think you could just be experiencing one possible aftermath of seeing through the self-illusion. My concern is that yes, as you mentioned above, guidance in inquiring into the unpleasant sensations, perhaps the resistance, the desire or aversion, the non-acceptance of things/life, is beyond this curriculum - but it certainly exists for those who wish to continue inquiring. Some people feel at peace and have no desire to keep inquiring, while others continue. It's whatever is right for you, but that is an option. As I may have mentioned before, seeing through the self illusion doesn't equal acceptance of life as it happens - and in fact this level of suffering may even intensify after the self-illusion is broken. Either way, I would like for you to have the options and knowledge to do what feels right for you :).

All of this being said, for a lot of people seeing through the illusion of a me isn't so cut and dry as others, it can be a gradual process rather than a sudden recognition. It may just be a matter of a little more peaking around at any 'sticky' points in your experience.

If you'd like to continue, I would ask for you to go back and read through your whole thread and do every exercise again. Take as long as you'd like, whatever feels right, and then write to me with what you've found. This can often be helpful and very clarifying. If you feel totally complete however, then we'll go from there!

Sending a hug and hope you had a nice weekend,
Wesley

Forgot this!

Can you define the seeking mechanism a bit more? I’m not sure if I got it. I’m not seeking gurus or spiritual bs-masters anymore that can give me some more meditation tactics or beliefs or information on enlightenment or anything like that. Nor am I joining cults ever again. Still I was expecting some sort of fulfillment or that deep inner peace and acceptance that I’ve had some experiences of, lasting up to some hours or even a day.

Well, let me ask - have you noticed a change in any kind of seeking since before you started this dialogue? Define seeking in your own terms, it is okay. It can be as general a feeling as "I don't feel I'm 'there' yet, something is missing, I'm not complete, enlightened." Particularly notice if there are thoughts of a 'me/I' that isn't _____ or is _____. I hear you about the spiritual masters and meditation tactics/beliefs :). From reading many people's comments, I believe it is very common for this to totally drop.

Looking forward to hearing back,
Wesley

Hey Wesley! You still there?

wrote this somewhere around in oct 2017:

Before our dialogue there was the blow to the foundation of an “I” living life. So with the help of our dialogue I wanted to make sure that the “I” has dropped. And we did blast through more beliefs and I’m not sure if there are much remaining. “I” definitely has become just a word used in communication. Nothing more.

Not sure if the journey is ‘complete’ or if it’ll ever be. See, seeking something more would have to come from an angle that there has to be more to be gained. And I have no proof that anything else can be attained. Thoughts & beliefs are endless, more of those will add nothing. Life is happening as it is and always will be, the movie is rolling and always has. I guess, thoughts can be used, a different experience can be created, the body can be utilized.

So I’ll leave it at that for now. If I come up with something then I can ask you.
——————————
and this is recent writing of where I’m at right now:

Ok, that took some time but I’ve gone through the whole thread now and there’s not much new to offer you.

I am typing vs. Typing happens -> still the latter seems more ‘real’

my sentence previously: “And if “I” can directly experience the body, senses, thoughts, then there is awareness, right?“ -> This has definitely gone deeper into understanding. There’s no evidence that there is consciousness. Or awareness. Just experience of life. And even that should be shortened to ‘life’ or ‘experience’, otherwise it would suggest that those are somehow separate and that can’t be proven. ‘There is something’ would be as good. Insert any word to describe ‘all there is’. Blah.

It seems that whatever question remains, there’s not much point in asking anyone else - this seems pretty solid. If it can’t be resolved in my ‘own’ experience, then any answer would not be anything more than a new belief.

What has not resolved is that resistance keeps coming up and looking behind the emotion as a concept still seems a bit confusing. What does looking “behind an emotion” mean? Is there a location for an emotion? To me it seems that the sensation is just felt there, presumable inside the borders of the body.

So there must be fear/resistance still to work with. Should we continue with this dialogue or am I better off at aftercare-forum for this type of work?

There’s a slight sense of ‘I’m not there yet’. Like there’s still something unseen. Perhaps answers to these few questions that still seem unclear me could do the trick:

1. This sentence caught my eye when reading the liberation unleashed book lately: “When I say “I”, it is not referring to the individual me who is thinking and writing.“
-> Doesn’t that sound like there is an individual me that is thinking and writing? If not, what is it referring to then?

2. So let’s say there is no “I” but there is an individual body and experience - can’t we call that combo an “I”? I’m not saying that experience (thoughts+sensations at best) are located ‘inside’ the body. But they seem mostly accessible to a single individual. Which again suggest some sort of borders or compartmets… blah again! How to get around seeing this?

3. The feeling of separation for me comes in the form of an ability (better word perhaps than control) to animate the body within the borders of it. And the same doesn’t apply outside the limits of the body. I’m not saying there’s an ‘I’ doing the animation but some sort of compartmentalization seems to be there. You may ask that can I know where the body ends and something else begins, then I could say to some extent yes, though I’m not quite sure if I can feel air touching the skin or anything like that. But still tactile sensations, chair, clothes, perhaps a bit of the shapes of the body parts. Can you help me see through this?

4. I guess the right answer is that the body does not experience, but everything is experienced. But then when I close my eyes or ears, suddenly it appears that experience is gone which would suggest that collection of experience happens ‘behind organs’ as in inside the body, instead of no location. Where the data gets sent, I have no idea. So when we researched where a sensation is separated from the one experiencing, this would suggest that there’s some sort of ‘border’. I’m unsure that I’m making this understandable, damn words again. But is there a way to see this more clearly?

5. About the thinking process, there seems to be a partial ‘choice’ in thinking, an ability to invite thoughts and use them. And sometimes thoughts come totally unprovoked and can’t be directed in any way. Is there something that’s not seen fully here as well?

Hi Samu,

Nice to hear from you again. I will respond tomorrow!

-Wesley

Hi Samu,

Still here, nice to hear from you.

Not sure if the journey is ‘complete’ or if it’ll ever be. See, seeking something more would have to come from an angle that there has to be more to be gained. And I have no proof that anything else can be attained. Thoughts & beliefs are endless, more of those will add nothing. Life is happening as it is and always will be, the movie is rolling and always has. I guess, thoughts can be used, a different experience can be created, the body can be utilized.

I can really only share my experience post LU, and that is that seeing through the self-illusion is not the end and there are further illusions to look into, and methods after LU for doing this. But it is entirely up to you, what feels right for you whether you feel complete or wish to inquire more. If any of it has to do with 'me or mine' than it can likely be worked with here; if it's just the fear/resistance you mentioned, being reactionary or even a 'jerk', than these I would say are normal for after seeing through the self-illusion.

It's okay for me to continue inquiring if you'd like, but please tell me if you feel to 100% ready to go back into it. If there's not much to look into regarding the self illusion than we can go through the final questions again and you will have access to the LU aftercare and groups which I think would be of interest to you.

If you are ready, then I have some questions/responses:

can’t we call that combo an “I”?

We can call anything whatever we wish. We could call the body and experience "dave" and believe in it. But what is there without calling it anything? What about this body + this experience = I?

to a single individual

Which single individual is that exactly? Where is the one that has access to experience?

I’m not saying there’s an ‘I’ doing the animation but some sort of compartmentalization seems to be there.

There is no separate self to be found other than in your thoughts. And there is also only control of 'your' body, not anything other than this body. Why does this not line up? That's how it is, isn't it? Why should it be different?

So when we researched where a sensation is separated from the one experiencing, this would suggest that there’s some sort of ‘border’

If you found the point of separation, between a sensation and a someone who is experiencing it, than yes this would suggest some sort of border. Where/what is the one experiencing, and where is the separation from the sensation?

-Wesley

hey again!

Thanks for being there once more for ‘me’!

Yes, let’s inquire some more, nothing that could be lost that way. I’m yes the aftercare stuff also interests me. But I wan’t to make sure I’ve looked everywhere concerning this ‘I’ thing.

LU guides must have been instructed to point out some things and leave some questions uncommented - am I right? I’ll bet there are good reasons for it too. e.g. answering some questions may not be beneficial to the one being guided.

We can call anything whatever we wish. We could call the body and experience "dave" and believe in it. But what is there without calling it anything?

There is a body and a bunch of thoughts and beliefs that seem to be connected in some way. I don’t know how but they seem to go as a ‘package’. Or am I not seeing something there?

This is actually weird but I seemed to have lost the ability to define what the ‘I’ was. Can’t remember what I used to believe it was. I seemed to have forgotten the point why this journey was started in the first place… hmm…

Separate vs. individual - I can’t define the difference between those either. What is it?

What about this body + this experience = I? 

Can you ask this in a different way, didn’t get it. :)

Which single individual is that exactly? Where is the one that has access to experience? 

The body is the single individual. And the mess of thoughts/beliefs seem to be individual as well. I can’t tell that anyone has access to experience, that would suggest that there’s someone who is experiencing and something that is experienced and only the experience can be found, not the one who is experiencing. This sounds like an inner conflict, I know :) I’m messed up it seems…

There is no separate self to be found other than in your thoughts. And there is also only control of 'your' body, not anything other than this body. Why does this not line up? That's how it is, isn't it? Why should it be different?

I think here is where we get to the sticking point. No separate self but still control over just a single body - that would suggest there is some sort of separate unit driving just one body (or each body) instead of all bodies or all life. So that’s what’s causing conflict here, limitation to a single body and the experience attached to it while there shouldn’t be any separation.

so this is where the self seems to be hiding => an individual body + memory/beliefs connected to the body in question = the self package (out of which the body part is tangible, memory/beliefs just being thoughts)

How can I see this more clearly? Damn it, I thought I had it already and it seems to have slipped. Or I may not have seen it at all, I’m starting to doubt everything… also a thought came that perhaps ‘the one that’s experiencing’ can’t be found in direct experience through 5 senses but it still might be there. That would make it a belief, I know.

If you found the point of separation, between a sensation and a someone who is experiencing it, than yes this would suggest some sort of border. Where/what is the one experiencing, and where is the separation from the sensation? 

I’d say I found a place where experience is ‘recorded’, at least some bits of it. Not that I’ve found anyone/anything that is experiencing the sensation.

so this is where the ‘point’ out of which experience is experienced (does that make sense?):
tactile = within assumed borders of the body (I can’t directly shut this sense off or hinder it really upon will)
visual = there seems to be a place somewhere behind the eyes where the recording of experience is happening
auditive = somewhere behind the ears, otherwise same as above
smelling = somewhere behind the nostrils, otherwise same as above
tasting = somewhere inside the mouth, otherwise same as above

so all this would suggest that sensations are being sensed inside the body somewhere. and not outside of it, for example. and this keeps the belief in ‘location’ sticky.

So can you see where I’m lost?
xxx

Hi Samba,

Sorry a busy day here I will write ASAP

Hi Samu,

LU guides must have been instructed to point out some things and leave some questions uncommented - am I right? I’ll bet there are good reasons for it too. e.g. answering some questions may not be beneficial to the one being guided.

It depends on the style you choose to take, but yes it's something like that ;). I do read all of your posts, every post of course, but sometimes a little focus and probing one particular issue or area helps. And many times the other questions fall away.

There is a body and a bunch of thoughts and beliefs that seem to be connected in some way. I don’t know how but they seem to go as a ‘package’. Or am I not seeing something there?

Okay so there is a body, there are thoughts and beliefs also as thoughts. Can you give an example of why they seem to be a package? For example, there is physical pain in the back and then a thought arises about that physical pain.

I hear you about forgetting how to define what 'I' is ;).

Separate vs. individual - I can’t define the difference between those either. What is it?

Perhaps because neither exist, other than as thoughts? What else could they be? For example, some cultures may not even 'think' of themselves as an individual such as in a collectivist society. A different way of thinking.

So let’s say there is no “I” but there is an individual body and experience - can’t we call that combo an “I”

Do you mean for the sake of communicating and convenience? Or that the body and experience make up a real thing called 'I'?

The body is the single individual. And the mess of thoughts/beliefs seem to be individual as well. I can’t tell that anyone has access to experience, that would suggest that there’s someone who is experiencing and something that is experienced and only the experience can be found, not the one who is experiencing. This sounds like an inner conflict, I know :) I’m messed up it seems…

Take a minute and look go through your senses. What do you see, hear, smell, taste, touch? Do you see a body? Do you hear thoughts? Do you see an individual? Do you hear/smell/taste/touch, an individual?

Where does 'Individual' live, where in experience does it reside exactly?

No separate self but still control over just a single body - that would suggest there is some sort of separate unit driving just one body (or each body) instead of all bodies or all life. So that’s what’s causing conflict here, limitation to a single body and the experience attached to it while there shouldn’t be any separation.

It shouldn't be like this according to who or to what? It seems there is an assumption that no separation = no individuality? What's really happening?
-Can you lift 'your' arm up?
-Can you lift up the arm of someone else (with a decision)?
-Can you find two separate 'things'?

If you say your 'body' is separate, consider what will eventually happen if your body was buried...It is a lump of earth, no? Was it really separate?

so this is where the ‘point’ out of which experience is experienced (does that make sense?):
tactile = within assumed borders of the body (I can’t directly shut this sense off or hinder it really upon will)
visual = there seems to be a place somewhere behind the eyes where the recording of experience is happening
auditive = somewhere behind the ears, otherwise same as above
smelling = somewhere behind the nostrils, otherwise same as above
tasting = somewhere inside the mouth, otherwise same as above

Does this come from thought/assumption, or from a direct experience of the senses?
-Do you see something in the eyes, or do you just see?
-Do you hear something in the ears, or do you just hear sounds?
-Do you smell something in the nose or is there just smell?
-Do you taste something in the mouth, or is there just taste?

All that is necessary is to notice whether something comes from a thought, or from the senses. Remember the back side of the cup exercise? Put an object in front of you. How do you know the back side of that object exists? Is it directly from your senses, i.e. you see the back side, or is it being assumed by thought?

So can you see where I’m lost?

Yes. Try and notice just like the cup exercise where information is coming from. "I see things behind the eyes", is this actually experienced or is it that you see things and you feel a sensation behind the eyes and have thoughts that suggest sight happens behind the eyes?

Hug,
Wesley

Hi Samu,

Please disregard my last post and instead go with this, here is an exercise first:

Normally we believe that sensation is coming from what is seen, the object in sight. So in this example, your hand is the object, and it's assumed sensation is coming from that hand. But is that really the case?

1.Close the eyes and hold up one hand. Pay attention only to the felt sensation ‘of the hand’.
2.Open the eyes, and now observe the hand by looking only.
3.While looking at the hand, pay attention to the felt sensations.

Repeat 1 to 3 as many times as needed and investigate…

Is there any link between the sensation and the sight, meaning that the sensation is ‘coming from’ the sight (labelled as ‘hand’) or only thought and mental constructs link them?

And a question: Does control as you see it require a controller?

Hug,
Wesley