I

[JonathanR]

Hi Renee,

How is it going?

Best wishes,

Jon

[springwater]

Hi Jon,

Sorry I didn't stay in contact in a whirlwind of visitors. I'm back.

Could the feeling of needing to 'stay with clear perspective' have to do with a perceived battle against something that is seen to be 'in the way'?

Yes that's it.

What if that 'me' never 'existed'?

In this contemplation of 'me' never existing...momentarily I can feel the detachment from it and see the story going on.

Is it seen that the 'me that is in the way' is entirely story, but thoughts will probably appear 'carrying' labels and references to this fictional entity?

I can contemplate this and see this somewhat but I don't have full conviction. It is fleeting - this seeing 'me' as entirely story.

If it is seen that the 'me' is not a 'real thing' that could actually 'get in the way' of anything, as such, but instead a story ABOUT a 'me', is there still a need to 'get rid' of something?

There would no need to get rid of something then. But I don't hang out there - in full knowing 'me' is just a story. I seem to hang out in believing the story of me more often than not.

Thank you Jon,
Renee

[JonathanR]

Hi Renee,

Could the feeling of needing to 'stay with clear perspective' have to do with a perceived battle against something that is seen to be 'in the way'?
Yes that's it.

Ok. Good.

. If it is seen that the 'me' is not a 'real thing' that could actually 'get in the way' of anything, as such, but instead a story ABOUT a 'me', is there still a need to 'get rid' of something?

There would no need to get rid of something then. But I don't hang out there - in full knowing 'me' is just a story. I seem to hang out in believing the story of me more often than not.

This is a step forward Renee, because now I understand that you feel and see things this way, it will be possible to find the right medicine, so to speak!

I will now ask you questions that can really help and it will be for you to take these and look at your experience to find any answers. You may possibly find the direction of my questioning to feel irrelevant at first, but please persist.

So, there is this perceived battle against something that is seen to be 'in the way'?

The very next time it is noticed that this battle is happening look for the one that is experiencing the frustration., that feels or thinks that something is in the way.

Can that one be found?

Where is that one?

Please write down a list of the thoughts and feelings that come up in looking for this one.

Many thanks

Jon

[springwater]

Hi Jon,

So, there is this perceived battle against something that is seen to be 'in the way'?

Yes, belief in all these thoughts is in the way.

The very next time it is noticed that this battle is happening look for the one that is experiencing the frustration., that feels or thinks that something is in the way.

Can that one be found?

Where is that one?

Please write down a list of the thoughts and feelings that come up in looking for this one.

I look for that one and it is just more thoughts. Thoughts upon thoughts like a never ending maze. I feel frustrated. Frustrated that I can't always just detach and not believe these thoughts about a 'me'. 'Me' with this problem. I take the idea of 'me' and this problem of being in the way and see it's all just thoughts and just detach from that...but it is fleeting. It seems like this idea of 'me' and all these thoughts about 'me' are like heavy molasses. I detach from them but then find myself back in it unconsciously suffering along. Frustrating. I imagine a practice might help. Practicing looking at myself the unchanging many times throughout the day. I don't know

Thank you,
Renee

[JonathanR]

Hi Renee,

. I imagine a practice might help. Practicing looking at myself the unchanging many times throughout the day. I don't know

Please take my next suggestion seriously.

Don't practise this.

Or at least, when you do find yourself looking in this way, turn attention back as if turning a video camera 180 digrees to see who or what is doing the looking.

Find the 'me' that tries to look at the unchanging self.

Find the one that feels frustrated.

Let me know how this goes?

Sending love,

Jon

[springwater]

Jon,

Find the 'me' that tries to look at the unchanging self.

Find the one that feels frustrated.

It seems it's like attention shifts from 'me' and it's problems to just looking. The indescribable unchanging is looking. Just being that.

The frustration is all in the mind. I can't find a one there...it's just thoughts upon thoughts.

Thank you,
Renee

[JonathanR]

Hi Renee,

. The frustration is all in the mind. I can't find a one there...it's just thoughts upon thoughts.

Who or what is it that is fruatrated?

Jon

[JonathanR]

...also meant to ask you

Are these 'your' thoughts?

Jon

[springwater]

Jon,

Who or what is it that is fruatrated?

The idea of a 'me' is frustrated...the 'me' idea has problems. Thoughts upon thoughts

Are these 'your' thoughts?

I don't know where the thoughts come from but I'm sick of it! What's sick of it? The thoughts are sick of the other thoughts. Round and around. Crazy!

Thank you,
Renee

[JonathanR]

Hi Renee,

I really feel your frustration and want to help.

Who or what is it that is fruatrated?
The idea of a 'me' is frustrated...the 'me' idea has problems. Thoughts upon thoughts

Tell me otherwise but it looks to me as though you learned somewhere, from non dual teachings or from having a temporary experience of 'I am' , or 'no self', that there is no self? And now you stick to this view, regarding the 'me' idea as simply an idea?

But this 'me' idea seems terribly frustrated for something that is supposed only to be an idea.
What do you suppose is going on?

How can an idea 'have problems'?

. What's sick of it? The thoughts are sick of the other thoughts. Round and around. Crazy!

isn't there still a feeling of frustration that refers back to a thought like 'I'm frustrated'?

Are you avoiding the obvious deduction that 'I feel frustrated' because you have learned that 'me' is supposed to be only an idea and that you cannot speak in terms of 'I feel frustrated'?

Please consider this carefully.

Might it be easier to drop the non dual rhetoric for now and tackle this sense of 'me' head on? It seems to be experienced as a real problem. If we stop insisting that we already know 'me' is only an idea it may be possible to track down the source of misery and deal with it.

Love

Jon.

[springwater]

Thank you Jon,

Might it be easier to drop the non dual rhetoric for now and tackle this sense of 'me' head on? It seems to be experienced as a real problem. If we stop insisting that we already know 'me' is only an idea it may be possible to track down the source of misery and deal with it.

I'm ready

Renee

[JonathanR]

Hi Renee,

Great !

Ok! You are half way to being free, so to speak. Well done!

Right now, work with the assumption that there is a self. This feeling of frustration.

It feels as though something or someone is frustrated.

It might not be comfortable but look for one that experiences the frustration. To do this you'll have to look right into the feeling. Look for clues in your direct experience. For example, is there any physical tension or painful sensation associated with this frustration? Are there obsessive thoughts?

Don't worry if you do or dont find some kind of 'self', 'I' or 'me' in there. Let me know how you get on?

Love

Jon

[springwater]

Hi Jon,

It might not be comfortable but look for one that experiences the frustration. To do this you'll have to look right into the feeling. Look for clues in your direct experience. For example, is there any physical tension or painful sensation associated with this frustration? Are there obsessive thoughts?

The frustration makes me feel sick. In my gut. Sick of it. Can't do it anymore. I've tried for too long. I want to give up. Can't do it feeling there is unworthiness...not good enough. I didn't think there are obsessive thoughts but maybe there are...

Thank you,
Renee

[JonathanR]

Hello Renee,

Thank you for looking at this feeling.

The frustration makes me feel sick. In my gut. Sick of it. Can't do it anymore. I've tried for too long. I want to give up.

Tough as your experience is, its very valuable right now that you are prepared to look at this feeling. Well done!

. Can't do it feeling there is unworthiness...not good enough. I didn't think there are obsessive thoughts but maybe there are

No matter if there are not obsessive thoughts. The two you mention are worth noticing.

Who or what is 'unworthy'?

Find an entity anywhere in the thought or sensation of 'Unworthiness'. Find that one.

If we imagine that there is a person ('unworthy' or otherwise) standing just behind us, but we are not sure,, what do we do to find out the truth?

'Unworthy' or 'worthy', take a few looks for this one. But in a fairly relaxed way. Its not necessary or helpful to make massive effort. Its quite subtle. Go gently :-)

Don't give up. You are on the right track now.


Love

Jon

[springwater]

Jon,

Who or what is 'unworthy'?

Find an entity anywhere in the thought or sensation of 'Unworthiness'. Find that one.

This body and personality feels unworthy, worthy. I look out these eyes so I'm involved with it somehow! I feel the sensation. This intimacy of me experiences this.

If we imagine that there is a person ('unworthy' or otherwise) standing just behind us, but we are not sure,, what do we do to find out the truth?

We look behind to see.

Thank you,
Renee