Requesting guidance

[JonathanR]

Hi M

. A lot of what is arising is very subtle and at times can also see deep core beliefs - not good enough

Who, or rather, What is making this judgement 'not good enough'?

Is that one the one that gets to see no self or not?

. I find whatever the form the most powerful 'self' is within judgements.

What is a judgement then?


Love

Jon

[Treelife]

Hi Jon
Hope you are doing well.
The judgement is a thought.

Is that one the one that gets to see no self or not?

I don't quite know how to define 'no self'. I guess it just a thought, belief, as distinct from a belief in self.

Peace n love
Mic

[JonathanR]

Hi M,

. A lot of what is arising is very subtle and at times can also see deep core beliefs - not good enough

Is that one the one that gets to see no self or not?

I don't quite know how to define 'no self'. I guess it just a thought, belief, as distinct from a belief in self.

OK, what I'm really asking is, what is the one that imagines 'core beliefs are not good enough'? Look to see. Where is that one?

Is it imagined that a one will see that there is no self? That there be one that 'knows' the experience' when it is seen and be able to judge that it matches expectations?

Jon.

[JonathanR]

Hi M,

. A lot of what is arising is very subtle and at times can also see deep core beliefs - not good enough

Is that one the one that gets to see no self or not?

I don't quite know how to define 'no self'. I guess it just a thought, belief, as distinct from a belief in self.

OK, what I'm really asking is, what is the one that imagines 'core beliefs are not good enough'? Look to see. Where is that one?

Is it imagined that a one will see that there is no self? That there be one that 'knows' the imagined experience when it is seen and be able to judge that it matches expectations?

Jon.

[Treelife]

Hi Jon

OK, what I'm really asking is, what is the one that imagines 'core beliefs are not good enough'? Look to see. Where is that one?

Of course, there is no one, that is clearer now.
There was a belief or thought process that gave the idea of core belief a lot of status. A thought "imagines 'core beliefs...not good enough'" So there is a thought of not good enough that arises on occasions, but it is just another thought. It is not fixed and nor does it warrant special status.
Beliefs and thoughts arise, but the act of believing the beliefs is what gives them.... Imagined selfness"

Is it imagined that a one will see that there is no self? That there be one that 'knows' the imagined experience when it is seen and be able to judge that it matches expectations?

A fantastic question and one that has resonated with me for the last few days. I have been wording it differently, about distinguishing between the awareness of experiences and the imagined 'I' experiencing. How do I know which is which. Who or what gives the.seal of approval.

I nearly have an answer I can articulate so I'm going to bed and see if sleeping on it will help. May try crack this nut then.

Thanks for all this Jon, I don't know what I believe about anything I think any more but that's ironically refreshing.

With love
Mic

[JonathanR]

Hi M,

I have been wording it differently, about distinguishing between the awareness of experiences and the imagined 'I' experiencing. How do I know which is which. Who or what gives the seal of approval.

Exactly. Who or what? Keep looking.

Any seal of approval would be an afterthought.

It's possible to speak of 'awareness of the experience' but now, by using language in this way, we have somehow invented an independent entity 'awareness' - 'me', that is imagined to be somehow separate or distinct from 'experience'.

Lets check it out.

Place a hand on the table in front of you. With eyes closed, It's possible to notice the sensation where hand meets table. It's very direct.

Does that feeling have boundaries?

Go to the sensation. Realx with that, just the noticing.

Is there experience happening? Or is there an 'experience happening' and a 'perceiver' of it?


with love

Jon

[Treelife]

Wow
It cuts out the last buffer, last refuge.
It is actually scary.
Just did it for a couple of minutes but I get what you mean.
Let me work on this more and get back to you.
Mic

[Treelife]

Hi Jon

The concept of awareness does have a place, but it also risks fitting into the spectrum of the one experiencing versus pure experience.
There is a pure experiencing, I got it on occasions today.
Alternativally when I did go from self identifying with thoughts and emotions towards being aware of sensations I was then often left with an experience of an observer. This observer is separate from the observed.
This day on the beech I got to have a most pure experience of the vision of the waves/sky/mountains, hear the wind/seagulls/waves, feel the wind on my face. These sensations filled me.
I can see how the 'observer' position was useful in giving me some distance from identifying with experiences/emotions/thoughts. But it still prone to duality.
The pure experience of sensation is difficult, especially preventing thoughts/beliefs over running the whole show. Also painful body sensations take some effort to not identify with, well impossible for me so far.
Pure (non observer awareness) experience cuts out the filter. Still an amount of confusion and not sure how to really and clearly consistently activate it (and who would be activating it anyway) but it was quite an experience.
Bit scary too. Like learning to swim and the instructor telling me to let go the swimming float, trow away the arm bands, take the stabiliser's off the bike, or going for a space walk without the guy rope. Trusting it for some walks on the beech is one thing, but trusting it in everyday live is exciting and quite intimidating. There is an idea of unfiltered experience is like.... I don't know unfiltered living, reckless, who is in charge. Of course that last bit is the whole point, there is no one in charge.
I get it now, I get it. Everything that I read and heard, and this non duality pull I have been experiencing, I see some genuine evidence for it now. I want it, and it scares me, but I want it. How to learn to really see, experience, so clearly and to do so consistently??
I know there is still a lot more hill to climb to the gate Jon but after my brief glimpse my resolve is stronger than ever.
I'm sure this email would have welcomed some filtering but it's late on a hectic day so catch you tomorrow. I am sending from my phone all week so typing and spelling is a struggle, note that from Saturday I will be off the net alltogether for a few days.
Thanks a mill Jon
With love
Mic

[JonathanR]

Hi Mic,

Wow
It cuts out the last buffer, last refuge.
It is actually scary.
Just did it for a couple of minutes but I get what you mean.

Right. That hits something?

Bit scary too. Like learning to swim and the instructor telling me to let go the swimming float, trow away the arm bands, take the stabiliser's off the bike, or going for a space walk without the guy rope. Trusting it for some walks on the beech is one thing, but trusting it in everyday live is exciting and quite intimidating. There is an idea of unfiltered experience is like.... I don't know unfiltered living, reckless, who is in charge. Of course that last bit is the whole point, there is no one in charge.
I get it now, I get it. Everything that I read and heard, and this non duality pull I have been experiencing, I see some genuine evidence for it now. I want it, and it scares me, but I want it.

This is cool.

Not a bad idea to stay with that and explore the sensation of fear? We spoke a little about this before and it may be important to completely acknowledge the feeling.

It can feel as though something loved is being threatened. Fear appears, perhaps as a protective impulse? Fear could be viewed as a loyal, loving kind of reflex trying to protect that which is imagined to be in danger? But where is that self, in reality? It has only ever been imagined. It cannot be hurt or killed.

It may be worth talking to the fear and thanking it, so much, for its loyalty and for doing such a great job of protecting all this time. Invite the fear to relax. See how that goes. I know it sounds odd but try it?

See where this goes.

love

Jon

[Treelife]

Thanks Jon
I have been a bit distracted and will continue to be for a few days.
No fear of late, but admittedly not doing much reflection on the exercises. Hope to get back to it soon. Until then much love
Mic

[Treelife]

Hi Jon
Doing the exercises although have not had the same level of head space I had earlier in the week.
The experience of sensations awareness with a subtle observer then inviting to fill the observer with all sensations. Difficult to hold in that space and not experiencing it as strongly as I did on Wednesday. Often the sense of a self comes back in. This sense can be with having a body (especially) when I can see my body, or with thoughts; also but less so sense of self in the solar plexus or behind the eyes, however these ones are less prevalent.
Am going to be off the net for a few days Jon, I'll continue with the exercises and talk soon.
Lots of love
Mic

[JonathanR]

Hi Mic,

Doing the exercises although have not had the same level of head space I had earlier in the week.
The experience of sensations awareness with a subtle observer then inviting to fill the observer with all sensations. Difficult to hold in that space and not experiencing it as strongly as I did on Wednesday. Often the sense of a self comes back in. This sense can be with having a body (especially) when I can see my body, or with thoughts; also but less so sense of self in the solar plexus or behind the eyes, however these ones are less prevalent.
Am going to be off the net for a few days Jon, I'll continue with the exercises and talk soon.

You had mentioned the 'last refuge', remember?

Could you go back and re-read our succession of posts across August 15 and 16?

Noticing any experience, with or without meditation or headspace, just noticing what is going on right now, look into that to find a 'me' that is distinct from 'experience'.

Look for an edge or line where 'me' ends and 'experience' begins.


love

Jon

[Treelife]

Hi Jon,
Thanks for your patience, I've been quite busy and distracted however stuff has been happening.

I am almost reluctant to commit words to my recent experiences. I'm afraid what I feel is progress will turn out to be a very small ladder that leads to a very long snake in this game of snakes and ladders.

I have in the last couple of days been having the experience of the 'self' becoming increasingly diminished. More and more moments where it is further and further in the distance.
And this evening for quite some time I genuinely could not find an 'I'. There was no 'self'. It has not been 100% consistent and even as I write this email I can turn inwards and find something that might or might not purport to be a self but will likely diminish with scrutiny.
I am very very cautions as I write this, what I may consider is the closest experience to 'no self' that I've encountered and I may give it some credience, you on the other hand may feel I am way off the mark so please bare with me as I tease this out.
When I have something that may be a 'no self' the experience was this:
Subtle, yet very different.
Thoughts were still in existence but I was not identified with them. A thought fluttering through my mind was as significant as a bird fluttering through my garden. It was no more believable as watching cartoons on t.v. - there was no inherent meaning it them, except if I felt/thought the thought was useful I would use it.
Visual images - looking around the house, garden, street - were just images. I had as much connection with them as was useful. There was no inherent meaning attached to them, again the metaphor of cartoons is useful.
There was actually no inherent meaning to anything, all sense data was just stuff, stuff!
I had an insight about the nature of 'no self'. It does not mean that there literally is no self, no Mic, no body, no world. The more useful interpretation of 'no self' is something more along the lines of, there may or may not be a body etc.. but the whole story about Mic and his work and all the other stuff is just a story, could even be like a dream. There is no divine meaning to any of it, take it or leave it.
Body sensations too are just sensations. The sensation behind my eyes or in my solar plexus (which I often get caught up in identifying with) are sensations just like the itch on my lip or the ease in my hips.
My earlier fears (well terror) of not being able to function without an I were not realized during my alleged 'no self experience'. I was able to get stuck into a busy task (fixing up, rearranging and cleaning my son's bedroom while listening to good music). As I looked around the room I just experienced images. There wasn't an 'I' in the body looking out, there body may have been real or not real, but the relationship between my body and visual images experiences were not relevant (not saying there was no connection between, I don't know that, but any possible connection was just not relevant).
Occasionally a bit of fear crept in. Hard to tie this down but it does seem to bring the 'I/self' back into the show. Defo speeds up the thoughts and they start taking life again. I did honor the fear as you suggest, but will keep an eye on this and see how if plays out if I get another experience like this again. (I hope I do get this experience again, it seems like a nice way to live).

Look for an edge or line where 'me' ends and 'experience' begins.

The edge is easier to find tonight. Despite the experience of earlier it I useful to think of the metaphor of a spring loaded dimmer switch. There is tendency for the dimmer switch to move back to towards 'I/self' when I take my attention off it. However with focus it is easier to look for the 'I', see there actually is none (that stands up to scrutiny) and start getting the dimmer switch back to the fuller 'no self' mode.

Joh how do these experiences fit with the path? If I'm way off please give me as specific instructions as possible on how to get back onto the track. Notwithstanding your feedback even if I am on the right track I don't know if I will be able to reproduce any of this tomorrow (snakes and ladders my friend).

With love
Mic

[JonathanR]

Hi Mic,

Thanks for your post. You have been busy. Well done.

There is tendency for the dimmer switch to move back to towards 'I/self' when I take my attention off it.

Look at this.

Back from where? Back to where?

Is there 'my attention'?

Joh how do these experiences fit with the path? If I'm way off please give me as specific instructions as possible on how to get back onto the track. Notwithstanding your feedback even if I am on the right track I don't know if I will be able to reproduce any of this tomorrow (snakes and ladders my friend).

What track? What path?


love

Jon

[Treelife]

HiJon,
Thanks for that.

Re: Dimmer switch:

Look at this.
Back from where? Back to where?
Is there 'my attention'?

Good point, there is an identification with the 'decision' on what to focus on. But of course there is no 'decision', because I cannot find anyone who is making the decision.

What track? What path?

This question doesn't work for me. Perhaps I am missing something. I understand that I am working towards the realization and experience of 'no self'. That is a destination, and although there is not 'the' track, I understand from the interaction between us that there are ways that are not helpful to attain this realization. Therefore I refer to track or path in reference to the way you are guiding me. However please correct me if I am missing something.

Regarding the exercises, todays experience is very different from yesterday. I could not reproduce it. When doing brief exercises and when meditating I could not experience 'existence' instead of 'me'. Of course the question of 'who is experiencing?' was useful in diminishing the 'me' experience but I could not get across the edge. And again the question of 'who is going over the edge?' was useful also.
There were some moments of getting over just (or sort of just) over the edge but very brief and could not be sustained like last night.

Look for an edge or line where 'me' ends and 'experience' begins.

Over all this is useful exercise and I'll continue on this for a while. As well as just look to see where it 'I'.

Talk soon,
With love
Mic