Greetings one and all..

[Dawson]

Hehe, I just noticed I wrote medication cussion, maybe it should have been meditation discussion, or possibly cushion.

Haha yeah, that makes more sense.

but do you focus attention? How does focussing attention come about?

Now I think of it, no. Attention naturally seems to move about and focus on different things, or nothing in particular all on its own. And it goes unnoticed so often, except for moments where you think about it.

What you wrote sounds clearer. Do you see that even writing about it is letting intellect loose at interpreting and describing what is? Is noticing what is something that is always happening?

Yes. Saying anything about it cannot be it. As far as I can tell, It can't not be happening.

Does it get overlooked?

Hmm, that's a tricky one. It feels that way. But it's the content that's always changing. But noticing what is, is always going on.

Is there a self involved in noticing what is?

No. It only seems that way through the stories and the labelling.

It's interesting how expecting things to be different can change an extra day's holiday in the sunshine into a dose of misery for the idea of a self!

Yeah absolutely!

Cheers,
Alec

[ray]

Now I think of it, no. Attention naturally seems to move about and focus on different things, or nothing in particular all on its own. And it goes unnoticed so often, except for moments where you think about it.

Nice observing about how the focus of attention does its thing. BUT LOOK was there a you that thought of it? Is it unnoticed until you think about it? What is going on here?
It's so easy (and part of the way that language functions) to describe stuff in terms of a self and thought. It's simpler than that . Look in what is happening now, and describe the play of attention/awareness, and self and thought. (You did mention this near the end of your reply, but please write a bit more on this).

Does it get overlooked?

Hmm, that's a tricky one. It feels that way. But it's the content that's always changing. But noticing what is, is always going on.

Look, noticing what is, is what is noticing separate from what is noticed? Are there 2 things?

Ray

[Dawson]

BUT LOOK was there a you that thought of it? Is it unnoticed until you think about it? What is going on here?

No, there wasn't a me that thought of it. No, there just isn't the character claiming control of the experience. Just sitting, listening to the sounds and looking out of my window. But there is no me who is aware of those things. Not even trying to define the experience until I write it down. It's not an activity. Not a person being aware. It's not individual things happening either, it just is. No one doing noticing, no one who is being aware.

So you can't 'rest in awareness' because that implies there's a person who's doing being aware.

Look, noticing what is, is what is noticing separate from what is noticed? Are there 2 things?

No, it's the same thing. Noticing/awareness isn't personal and doesn't have a fixed location.

Thanks Ray,
Alec

[ray]

Really cool. Love the recent change of tone.

No, there wasn't a me that thought of it. No, there just isn't the character claiming control of the experience. Just sitting, listening to the sounds and looking out of my window. But there is no me who is aware of those things. Not even trying to define the experience until I write it down. It's not an activity. Not a person being aware. It's not individual things happening either, it just is. No one doing noticing, no one who is being aware.

So you can't 'rest in awareness' because that implies there's a person who's doing being aware.

Yes, yes, yes! No further questions on that. Let me ask you something else...

Is this something that is glimpsed, millisecond views, or is it there, right now, anytime you look?

Is the body experiencing, or is the body also part of the experience?

It's a joy to be walking with you.
Ray

[Dawson]

Hey Ray,

Sorry for the late response but I've been busy at lessons and studying!

Is this something that is glimpsed, millisecond views, or is it there, right now, anytime you look?

Well I can see that there's just this here a lot more. It's feels more like just getting out of my own way. It's when the identification with Alec and being a person drops away that I'm consciously aware that it's right here, any time I look.

Is the body experiencing, or is the body also part of the experience?

The body is also a part of the experience. Although again, that's clearer sometimes more than other. There's this identification with the body and then something makes you zoom out and you realize that the body is a part of it too.

Thanks very much, Ray. Likewise.

[ray]

Hi Alec,

No problem with the late (ish) response. As they say "life goes on".

Is this something that is glimpsed, millisecond views, or is it there, right now, anytime you look?

Well I can see that there's just this here a lot more. It's feels more like just getting out of my own way. It's when the identification with Alec and being a person drops away that I'm consciously aware that it's right here, any time I look.

That's great. Let's turn it around. Is the sense of self constantly there, or does it come and go? Is it ever anything other than an appearance in and as thought?

The body is also a part of the experience. Although again, that's clearer sometimes more than other. There's this identification with the body and then something makes you zoom out and you realize that the body is a part of it too.

I agree. Seeing the body as part of experience is someting that's more obvious when you stop and look.
Is there anything outside of experience?
Is there an experiencer found anywhere?

Ray

[Dawson]

Hi Ray,

Indeed it does.

Is the sense of self constantly there, or does it come and go?

The sense of self definitely isn't constant.

Is it ever anything other than an appearance in and as thought?

No. It's identifying with thought that brings the sense of self about. Believing that 'I' am the one who is having these thoughts. If you're not identified with them, then it's just content, like anything else.

Is there anything outside of experience?

No. If I were to be aware of it, then that would be experience too.

Is there an experiencer found anywhere?

Only in the labelling, defining or retelling of an experience (whether that be to yourself or other people). Otherwise, the experiencer and the experienced seem to be one and the same.

As a side note, I've been disinterested in a lot of stuff lately. It's not depression, but just this absence of preference for much of anything. Feeling really blank. Is this something that will pass, or completely unrelated?

Many thanks,
Alec

[ray]

Hi Alec,

Thanks for some really great answers. Sounding lovely and clear.

As a side note, I've been disinterested in a lot of stuff lately. It's not depression, but just this absence of preference for much of anything. Feeling really blank. Is this something that will pass, or completely unrelated?

It can certainly be part of seeing. Yes it can change, but don't expect it to be a particular way. This is not an excited state, it's more like the ground from which compassion, engagement and enlivenment can spring.
Here's some things to check and some questions.
Is it OK for it to be that way right now?
How are things when you wake up in the morning and the world "kicks in"?
Are there thoughts that are being believed that engender feelings of discomfort or anxiety? Is the content of thought true?

Take the time to go and sit in nature (looking out of the window will do). Feel a relaxation and notice the whole scene. Notice how everything moves and wiggles, trees, clouds, birds etc. It's springtime. See the subtle beauty, delicate nature and harmony of the world.
Are you other than that?

Write to me of how things feel and how it's experienced over the past few days.

With warmth,
Ray

[ray]

PS.
I'm away from home for a few days. I'll still post replies, but won't be able to cut and paste quotes.

All the best,
Ray

[Dawson]

Hi Ray,

Is it OK for it to be that way right now?

Yes it is okay. It's actually been quite good to take a step back from everything.

How are things when you wake up in the morning and the world "kicks in"?

It's usually comprised of noticing thoughts popping and seeing how they're doing their thing and watching the world go by for a bit to be honest!

Are there thoughts that are being believed that engender feelings of discomfort or anxiety?

Nothing major, just a passing one really. It's this mild feeling of guilt for just wanting to be. Like I should be doing something or trying to better myself in some way, when in actuality, I just want to be.

Is the content of thought true?

No, not really. Only true in that it is content and it happens.

Are you other than that?

No and I know I keep saying it, but it's so obvious when I'm out in nature. It's just being. Just is what is it is.

Well, as with everyone, there are practical considerations that I need to take into account each day. Ones that require focus and attention. Carry water, chop wood! Other than that though, it's been a lot of me just being. Fewer questions arising. Less interest in entertaining thoughts. They just don't seem as interesting. No major experiences or anything out of the ordinary. But I actually couldn't care less. I tend to be quite a social creature, but recently I've been yearning for a period of solitude that's free from distractions. Haha. Anyway!

Kind regards,
Alec

[ray]

Is it clear that there is no self? Is there something more you'd like to investigate before I post the closing questions?

Ray

[ray]

What is missing?
What needs to change?

[Dawson]

Hi Ray,

To be honest, I'm really not sure. Sorry if this is frustrating. I don't know why, but it's starting to seem like I'm just not ready. Things have cleared up considerably and I can see that the self is not substantive, but I'm still identifying with it. There are plenty of periods throughout the day now where it's just being and no comment can really be made on it, but it's not stable. It comes and goes.

When I try and consider what's missing or what needs to change, I hit a brick wall and can't come up with anything. My mind just goes completely blank.

None the less, thanks very much for all your help over these past months, Ray. I do really appreciate it.

Alec

[ray]

No frustration here.

You can stay or you can go, whatever feels right.

I'm wondering if there's some difficulty now that you've of noticed that there's no control. Maybe you feel you don't want to let go of the reins, even though there's no self !
This can be a tough one. Essentially nothing is different, every occurrence being dependent on the current situation. But there's no requirement for a particular outcome.

I'm happy to keep chatting if you'd like.

You're very welcome,

Ray

[Dawson]

Hi Ray,

I'd very much like to keep chatting, as long as that's something you're okay with.

I think you're right. I need to dig a little deeper but if feels like there's resistance to 'letting go of the reins', or rather, realizing that I was never in control to begin with. There's still this perception that I have control. When it becomes apparent that there is no control and life is just happening, it doesn't feel like something that can be sustained. Almost an unwillingness to let myself be for any length of time.

From time to time, this program of 'I've got to be meditating, contemplating, doing x, y, z' runs, because there's something I'm just not getting. Then I feel bad for not doing all of that stuff. But then like clockwork, I look at this discussion or Ilona's blog and all of that falls away. Then there's nothing to say, do, think, comment on or anything else.

And then Alec kicks in again! I'm trying to control the experience.

All the best,
Alec