Can't tell if I've seen through the illusion

[Seahawks5862]

Steve,

Sorry...I'm a little confused. Thoughts saying something is an interpretation? Compared to they are saying nothing?

The lion being seen would be an object labeled a lion by a thought.

Sight is a natural sense that we are born with. Seeing just happens with no interpretation needed. The eyes see on their own. Thoughts are abstract and can't be found. Thats all I get right now.

Ty

[blackh]

Ty,

Sorry for being confusing. I think this is important, because you're talking about how thoughts are trying to get in the conversation. How does this work? Now of course, thoughts can't "do" anything...

So I'll give this another try before I let it go.

Thoughts saying something is an interpretation?

Well, you could say that thoughts are a stream of concepts, words and images. So are they just information, or are they actively "saying" something in some real way? To put this another way, is what thoughts are saying in some way different from what sight, hearing or taste are saying?

Are thoughts "special" somehow? Is their content any more "you" or "yours" than, say the things you see or hear?

Is there any part of experience that belongs to you in some way?

These questions might seem obvious, but this inquiry is all about obvious things.


Steve

[Seahawks5862]

No need to apologize.

Thoughts really aren't saying anything any different than sight or hearing are saying.

Even though thoughts feel special because they relate to what's happening in MY life, I know that they are just thoughts.

I Just had a thought that thoughts are just like a parrot talking about the days events. Evan though thoughts feel so personal most of what is said is just noise.

That last question I see clearly. Experience isn't owned by me in any way.

So if experience isn't owned by me than why should thoughts be owned by me? So for u Steve do thoughts
still try and create a "Steve" story but u just know that...?

Ty

[blackh]

Ty,

Great! So would the following be true?

• There are thoughts / emotions.
• There are sights, hearing, and other senses.
• Experience tales a certain shape, and thoughts make some correct predictions about it.
• That's it.

As for me, I would put it like this: there's the appearance of a body and it acts in ways that are largely mysterious. It can talk to other bodies about how "I did this" and so on. Thoughts in those terms appear and so do other thoughts about how it's not believed. I'm not sure if this is 100% accurate because it's all a bit baffling. :)


Steve

[Seahawks5862]

Steve,

I would say the following is true. I am definitely not where u are. There is still a habit of forgetting that I'm not the thoughts.

For instance, the looking at what is going on seems to take a certain amount of effort that is being controlled. I know the answer is that theres no me to control anything but when effort is needed it hard to see that somethings will isn't doing it. Is this just the mind running everything?

Tx
Ty

[blackh]

Ty,

I flip-flopped for two months before it settled down, and it's certainly not wonderful all the time. It will unfold how it unfolds so you don't really need to worry about that aspect of it now. The important thing now is to get good at looking and keep making yourself sure that self really is an illusion - sort of like an optical illusion.

Here's something from a completely different angle that might be helpful: Have a think about what reason you have to believe there's a self. Is it because it's built into the culture? Maybe the onus of proof is the wrong way around. Our culture days success is measured by how good you look and how much money you have. Why would you unquestioningly believe what a culture that came up with that idea says? Could "self" just be a bad theory?

So it sounds like you can't see a self. How are you doing with this? Is there an experiential shift? Remember it is usually quite subtle. Also, how it works is mysterious and it happens in its own way and is own time.


Steve

[blackh]

Ty,

I should address what you said a little more specifically...

Is this just the mind running everything?

Keep looking at decisions in daily life - every kind of decision, especially where decisions that don't matter, e.g. between similar things. Look for the decision point.

Also look for the self that's making the decision. This all takes time and effort, and I'm not going anywhere. So keep me posted on how it's going.


Steve

[Seahawks5862]

Steve,

I was able to really look at how the body was making decisions and moving on it's own. I was laughing quite a bit. The day became busy and I wasn't able to look quite as often but I'm enjoying the process. Tx.

Ty

[blackh]

Ty,

Great work! Keep working on the decisions. I found it the most difficult out of everything.

From what you are saying, it would appear that I now have you standing in the right spot and pointed in the right direction so everything should be fine as long as I don't mess with it. I've got a little exercise (really a variation on previous exercises) for you that I think will be suitable now, but it might have to wait for the morning. :)

---
Go somewhere where there's a lot of movement. Either outside in nature, or somewhere where there are a lot of people. Look at the totality of the experience. See how everything moves, wiggles, trees, grass, animals, birds, humans, thoughts, feelings, the body that is here now. Notice that thoughts are arising dependent of what is being noticed, what is being experienced.

Notice life, aliveness and how everything is happening effortlessly. Turn the focus outside. Notice how everything simply is. Perceiving is happening. It's here, now, alive.

See how seeing just happens. There is no one behind the eyes, no watcher, no observer, only watching, observing happening in the present moment. No agent that switches seeing on and off at will. Mind is doing its usual business of labelling experience and it is also just happening by itself without an effort.


Steve

[Seahawks5862]

Steve,

I've just watching like you instructed and I'm enjoying the process. I'm working tonight at a hospital so I'll keep u posted on how looking continues.

Tx

Ty

[blackh]

Ty,

Great. Nice that you are enjoying it.


Steve

[Seahawks5862]

Steve,

Does there come a time when something happens and all of a sudden I get it or is it a more gradual thing? How did it happen for u?

Tx
Ty

[blackh]

Ty,

Hi - I just got back from town.

I think there's quite huge variation, and - since expectations can be a problem sometimes - some guides avoid answering that question. With that warning, I'll answer: it kind of snuck up on me slowly over about three days. One thing is certain - you can't know what to expect.

The important thing is to keep searching for that self. There's a part of the mind deeper than thought that has to be sure, and that part of the mind can only be reached by looking.

• Is there a sign of it somewhere, maybe a hidden influence that can inferred?
• Is it performing actions or are there just actions arising with thought labels attached?
• Is it hidden in some part of the body you hadn't considered?
• Is it causing thoughts, are there only thoughts about it causing thoughts?
• Is some part life owned by it?
• Is it hidden behind the seer? There is seeing, but can you find that which sees?
• You've searched through all of experience to see what's there. Is there something other than thought, emotion and sensation that you have overlooked?
• Do you have some area of doubt on this? I can give you more pointers in a particular area.

Close your eyes and listen to some sound in the distance. Can you find a division between that which hears and the sound?

If you look inside the body, what's there?


Steve

[Seahawks5862]

Steve,

Thank u so much. It is pretty clear that the body is operating on it's own. The more looking that's done the less a ME seems to exist.

-I still don't see clearly how decisions are made. I've had some glimpses but that's all.

-anymore pointers can't hurt?

Tx Ty

[blackh]

Ty,

Hi - I really had to sleep last night.

Here's one to try: Get a box of items of the same shape. I used plastic poker chips. Dump them out onto a table, then put them all back in the box. When choosing each item to put back in the box, try to use your free will to choose the next item. Now observe the process. Can you see how the decisions are made?

Decisions can also be planned, so they show up in thoughts before the action, so thoughts apparently cause them. You can see that thoughts just arise. But can you find any sign of some kind of "you" that causes them?

The facts are that there is the appearance of a body that acts in intelligent ways. Now here are two possible explanations for this:

• The world is a complex, interrelated flow with many life forms. Life is - though some unknown mechanism - aware of itself and this awareness is focused at a certain point at which thoughts and sensations of one particular body are visible.
• The body works in a complex way. There is a part of the body called "I" that can both sense and exert control over the body. No evidence of it or any effect of it on the body can be found, but it must be there.

Which of those is true, or is there a better explanation?

Here's a quote from Gateless Gatecrashers:

Now compare the following:
Take Spiderman. If you think about him, you have thoughts, feelings. They’re real, right? Real thoughts, feeling, real image of a red and blue lycra suit. But Spiderman is not real. Spiderman does not exist. He is not part of reality. The thoughts and images are—but he isn’t.
Self is exactly the same as this. Exactly the same. What arise are thoughts, feelings and sensations in the body. They are real thoughts and feelings. But an actual self? That’s not real. Self does not exist. You are not part of reality. The thoughts and images about you are—but a being that is living life? Thinking thoughts? No. There’s nothing there.
Do not believe this. Look.

Steve