a step into the unknown

[Freddi]

Morning Trev,
1.

There is more acceptance that I have looked and found no sign of anything more than thoughts, feelings and sense experience, none of which hold an “essence of Trev” in them, or even a bit of “essence of Trev”.

Great!
So, would you say that what you thought you were was only a thought construct? That there is no character called Trev ordering his life about?

2.

Right now there is still some ‘wish’ for more peace of mind

Stop and come back to the senses. Take a fresh look at this assumption. Question it.
Is THIS 'war of mind'? What would 'peace of mind' be like? A silent mind?
What is 'mind' in direct experience? Is it some sort of container of all 'your' thoughts?
Can you see/hear/touch/feel, experience it? Or is the 'mind' just the current thought?

3. Take another look at what is alive, right now. For a moment, watch and notice all the happening of this moment and how every 'thing' is given a label.
Do these labels accurately represent what they point to? Or is it more random, sounds, words added to the raw experience of things?
For example, does the sound W-A-L-L have anything to do with the experience pointed to, called wall?
Is it like this with any label, any concept?
Where is the division between objects REALLY happening, Trev?

A lot to ponder, take your time. Make sure you answer all the questions, from direct experience. No mind fluff allowed here :-)

Thank you

Fred

[Trev]

Hi Fred,

So, would you say that what you thought you were was only a thought construct? That there is no character called Trev ordering his life about?

There is a body, thoughts, feelings, but nothing more than that. There is no extra entity called Trev, who controls any of these things.

Stop and come back to the senses. Take a fresh look at this assumption. Question it.
Is THIS 'war of mind'? What would 'peace of mind' be like? A silent mind?

What I experience now is maybe not the difference of war and peace, but it does seem less of a struggle. Feelings, thoughts and experience arise and pass, and are experienced with less tension, pushing, pulling or bumping around against them. Not that all is sweetness, there are difficult feelings and bad moods, but there is more a sense that this is a mood, it is OK and it will pass. Mind is not silent, but there are less thoughts, more just noticing present experience.

What is 'mind' in direct experience?

I am not sure what you mean by direct experience. My experience now seems to be direct. I seem to be resting in the present, and able to see areas of tension and just relax back in that space again, or just be with the tension, if it stays.

Is it some sort of container of all 'your' thoughts?

I don’t have a sense of a container. There are sensed thing, visual, heard, smelt, touched and there are thoughts, and feelings, which seemed to be mostly based on sensations in the body.

Can you see/hear/touch/feel, experience it? Or is the 'mind' just the current thought?

There doesn’t seem to be anything to single out as mind, unless you use mind to describe the ongoing process of attention.

3. Take another look at what is alive, right now. For a moment, watch and notice all the happening of this moment and how every 'thing' is given a label.
Do these labels accurately represent what they point to? Or is it more random, sounds, words added to the raw experience of things?

Looking at things does not seem to require a labelling activity. To add the label seems like an extra thing, that is not the same as the object observed. I can look at a tree, and just watch it, then think “TREE”, but the label “TREE” is a thought, not the same as the thing I am looking at in the present.

Is it like this with any label, any concept?

I would say so.

Where is the division between objects REALLY happening, Trev?

The categorisation of labelling seems very crude in relation to what is seen. It doesn’t feel that useful. It is not that what is seen is just one big lump, there are clearly different things, doing different things. However, in the moment, it seems fine as it is, the labels don’t capture it. Not sure if that answers your question.

Hope that is not too fluffy for you ;-)

Thanks

Trev

[Freddi]

Hi Trev

Thanks - that was not fluffy at all. Just what is.

I am not sure what you mean by direct experience. My experience now seems to be direct.

Yes that's what is meant by direct experience, not memories of experiences, not thoughts about experience, just what is alive, here and now. :-)

Fred: Can you see/hear/touch/feel, experience it? Or is the 'mind' just the current thought?
Trev: There doesn’t seem to be anything to single out as mind, unless you use mind to describe the ongoing process of attention.

Right, I can't see/touch/hear/feel anything I could label as 'mind' either.
Is the 'ongoing process of attention' a thought too?
In this direct experience, is there anything 'ongoing', what happens to attention when the body goes to sleep?

To add the label seems like an extra thing, that is not the same as the object observed. I can look at a tree, and just watch it, then think “TREE”, but the label “TREE” is a thought, not the same as the thing I am looking at in the present.

Would this also be true of any 'thing' you think yourself to be?
Would any 'I', 'me' fall into that category of experiences with an ill-fitting label?

It is not that what is seen is just one big lump, there are clearly different things, doing different things. However, in the moment, it seems fine as it is, the labels don’t capture it. Not sure if that answers your question.

It answers the question perfectly, thank you.
Labels don't capture THIS, that's very true. There are different 'things' doing different 'things'. What would you say about the borders between these 'things', what are they made of? Differences in colours, shapes, sizes, movements? Are these 'things' somehow all related? Could you have a 'cloud' without a 'sky'? A 'bird' without a 'worm'? A 'tree' without the 'rain'? A 'man' without 'air' or 'water'? How does it all work?

Thank you!

Fred

[Trev]

Hi Fred

I didn’t sleep well last night. Still have a sense of more openness and attention more settled, even though there are a lot more thoughts and feelings going on. Sometimes feeling quite tense or irritable emotionally. Probably related to life situation, as tomorrow is my last day in my current job, and not sure what I am doing next. Paying attention to thoughts and feelings as they arise. Relaxing with that experience. So I still feel a shift of experience remains, although it is not as clear as it was yesterday.

Is the 'ongoing process of attention' a thought too?
In this direct experience, is there anything 'ongoing', what happens to attention when the body goes to sleep?

I don’t see attention outside of thoughts, feelings and senses. When the body goes to sleep, I assume the attention stops. There is no conscious experience when the body is asleep, unless you count dreams.

Trev: To add the label seems like an extra thing, that is not the same as the object observed. I can look at a tree, and just watch it, then think “TREE”, but the label “TREE” is a thought, not the same as the thing I am looking at in the present.
Fred: Would this also be true of any 'thing' you think yourself to be?
Would any 'I', 'me' fall into that category of experiences with an ill-fitting label?

Yes. I see ‘I’ as a label in the same way. It refers to this collection of body/thoughts/feelings/senses, but does not represent any more than that.

Labels don't capture THIS, that's very true. There are different 'things' doing different 'things'. What would you say about the borders between these 'things', what are they made of? Differences in colours, shapes, sizes, movements? Are these 'things' somehow all related? Could you have a 'cloud' without a 'sky'? A 'bird' without a 'worm'? A 'tree' without the 'rain'? A 'man' without 'air' or 'water'? How does it all work?

You must be getting at something here, but I am not sure what. I can see there is an interdependence. For example, to be a bicycle, you also need a cyclist to pedal, and a road to ride on, without these things there isn’t really a bicycle. I have a sense there is more to see there, or that it can be seen more clearly. I will stay with that one and see what develops.

Thanks

Trev

[Trev]

Hi Fred

An extra thought...

A few things are occurring to me. I am not sure if it is useful to look at as part of this exploration. Could you let me know what you think – or ask a few questions in the area if you think it is useful?

It is around longer term decisions, which are very active for me right now. These habitually disturb my sleep and lead to a lot of tiredness and tension, and this is happening now. The tensions and tiredness seem to reduce the clarity of attention that was present a few days ago, there are strong feelings and more thoughts coming up around “my feelings” and “my decisions” to make. Which is fine, thoughts of an ‘I’ do not create an ‘I’.

As there is no ‘I’ in control, my expectation around making these decisions is different. My attention is sometimes caught in these thoughts, but right now it seems clear that the decision and my future will play out in a way that ‘I’ do not control. Still there is fear around, and maybe a desire to ‘control’ or ‘fix’ the situation.

Just wondered if you have any suggestions around exploring this.

Thanks,
Trev

[Freddi]

Hi Trev,

These habitually disturb my sleep and lead to a lot of tiredness and tension, and this is happening now. The tensions and tiredness seem to reduce the clarity of attention that was present a few days ago, there are strong feelings and more thoughts coming up around “my feelings” and “my decisions” to make. Which is fine, thoughts of an ‘I’ do not create an ‘I’.

I see. A lot is going on in life at present. It is at these times that the feeling of an 'I' that needs to be on control is at its strongest.
I invite you to watch these movements as they occur, maybe a panicky feeling, maybe accompanied by a stronger heartbeat, some sweaty palms or whatever. Just notice these physical sensations.
Notice also any story, any film that shows up on the screen in the attic, maybe a projected future with a central character. Then question the accompanying story.
What is the worst that could happen? Play it out in the film. Notice the sensations that come up around that scenario.
Are 'you' inside the character or outside?
If you boil it down to one word, say uncertainty. Does that word contain a degree of fear? In this moment, is there certainty?
Would you say that certainty is something tangible and attainable? Or is there only ever uncertainty?
Is the scenario/film an accurate representation of what's happening right in this moment?
Stay with these, as they rise and fall. Give them time and allow them to go when they want to leave.

Thank you!

Fred

[Trev]

Hi Fred

Despite starting the day tired, the tense feelings have settled down and I have the sense of being quite comfortable and stable just attending to the present has remained pretty steady. I am most prone to tense feelings and thoughts at about 4am, so I will see if that kicks in and keep your suggestions in mind if it does. Even when the feelings were strong, there was still a sense of openness to the experience and that it was OK for them to be there, somehow the sense of tensing up against these experiences was less than before.

On the subject of the borders between things. I do sense something around this. It seems that the labelling and categorising that was previously quite crude and dominating in my experience, can fade to the background. If I am just relaxing and opening to experience, it is almost gone completely. In that sense there is more openness to the subtleties of things. More space to just see what is before me and feel the implications of it. Just the play and movement of the world. Water in a fountain, two people talking, the wind in the trees. Not really to do with boundaries, but somehow it seems related.

Bye for now.

Trev

[Freddi]

Morning Trev

I will see if that kicks in and keep your suggestions in mind if it does

OK Let me know what comes up if it does. And don't forget to keep LOOKing if there is an 'I' in the middle of it, experiencing it all.
And when you say:

I am most prone to tense feelings and thoughts at about 4am

Right now, is that a thought or a verifiable fact? Is that 'I' here and now?

More space to just see what is before me and feel the implications of it. Just the play and movement of the world. Water in a fountain, two people talking, the wind in the trees. Not really to do with boundaries, but somehow it seems related

Can you expand on this?
Is there some effort, some expectation to SEE things differently?

Thank you

Fred

[Trev]

Hi Fred

… keep LOOKing if there is an 'I' in the middle of it, experiencing it all.
And when you say:

There is a variation on that theme going on today. I am contemplating some new work I will need to develop in the coming months. Today there were frequent thoughts and feelings relating to things that ‘I’ could have done differently in the past which would have left ‘me’ in a better position now. Feelings of resentment, regret, anger and so on. Thoughts critical of me, critical of other people. The feelings are not overpowering, and there is space for the question you suggested – Is there an ‘I’. Which ‘I’ is envious, etc. Which ‘I’ will have to work harder or earn less money because of the actions taken in the post. Those thoughts and feelings are here now. A tense pressure across my chest and in my throat, tension at the back of my neck. Tension in my legs. Letting the question arise “Where/what is the ‘I’ that is affected or is concerned by this situatio– where is it?” There is no ‘I’ to be seen of course, the feelings loosen a little, although not completely.

The belief in an ‘I’ has gone, but feelings like this still come and go. Much weaker than before, and now there is a different perspective on them as there is attention on them as thoughts and feelings, not as if they are a reality. But the feelings are still strong at times and there can be a strong gloomy mood around.

I would even say that there is sometimes a strong sense of an ‘I’ being around. Although when I pay attention to the thoughts, it does appear that it is a thought of I, there is no appearance of anything more than that. I think I read something on this forum about the thought of I combined with a feeling connected to that thought create the illusion of an I, this is observed now as an illusion, although perhaps it can be seen a bit more clearly or immediately, without stopping to pay particular attention. It seems that ‘as if’ has not quite dropped away. I suspect that you will say: LOOK, do you see an ‘I’ – and that is what I will continue to do. This is all fine. Part of the process.

The moment to moment experience is still substantially different, as it has been for the past few days. There is still as sense of openness at the back of my head, and much more stability in attention in the moment, less tending to get ‘caught up’ in thoughts.

I wonder at the moment if my perspective on thoughts may shift a bit more, similar to the perspective that I sometimes have on visual experience, where there is much more sense of space and presence. I wonder if they might become a bit clearer. Not much I can do except look and be curious, just a thought.

More space to just see what is before me and feel the implications of it. Just the play and movement of the world. Water in a fountain, two people talking, the wind in the trees. Not really to do with boundaries, but somehow it seems related

Can you expand on this?
Is there some effort, some expectation to SEE things differently?

No not much effort, just holding the intention to explore boundaries, observe what is there. I suppose there is some expectation to see things differently. No visually, I don’t expect an image of connection. But some sort of perception, or gut feel around the connectedness or interdependence of things. You gave examples such as ‘can there be a bird without a worm’, I am observing and contemplating what I see, and I am curious to see if that ‘makes sense’, if it is understood in the way you suggest.

Thanks
Trev

[Freddi]

Hi Trev,

The belief in an ‘I’ has gone, but feelings like this still come and go.

Glad to read that the belief has gone :-)
That 'but' seems loaded, though. Are these feelings ok? Are they allowed to be there, as long as they want or need to be?
If not, what is it that is rejecting them? What is it that is giving them a negative label?

It seems that ‘as if’ has not quite dropped away.

I'm interested in the reason why you placed 'as if' between quotation marks. Is it because you know that it has, in fact, dropped away?
LOOK and see for yourself. Don't get into mind labyrinth about the 'not now'. Bring your attention back to THIS.

The moment to moment experience is still substantially different, as it has been for the past few days. There is still as sense of openness at the back of my head, and much more stability in attention in the moment, less tending to get ‘caught up’ in thoughts.

Great! :-)

I wonder at the moment if my perspective on thoughts may shift a bit more, similar to the perspective that I sometimes have on visual experience, where there is much more sense of space and presence

The perspective on thought may or may not shift further. Are both outcome equally welcome? Or do you notice a preference for one over another? If so, what is that preference, in actual experience?

Thank you

Fred

[Trev]

Hi Fred,

Are these feelings ok? Are they allowed to be there, as long as they want or need to be?
If not, what is it that is rejecting them? What is it that is giving them a negative label?

Looking at feelings today. There are some feelings that are unpleasant, although when I look carefully, it is clear that the actual sensations are not that bad. Compared to physical pain the feeling is quite mild discomfort. Looking more it seemed that it became more difficult when it is linked with a thought about loss or threat. I considered the question of ‘who’s feeling is this?’, ‘who’s loss is this?’. Looking at thoughts, feels and body and considering that none of these things could lose anything it seems the loss is strongly linked to the fictitious self, and this looking and questioning seemed to clarify that and ease the discomfort. It seems I sometimes need to stop and look more carefully to ease the power and discomfort of some feelings.

LOOK and see for yourself. Don't get into mind labyrinth about the 'not now'. Bring your attention back to THIS.

I think the experience above is a lot of what the ‘as if’ was about. That does feel clearer now.

The perspective on thought may or may not shift further. Are both outcome equally welcome? Or do you notice a preference for one over another? If so, what is that preference, in actual experience?

It seems I am becoming more used to a more stable and open attention to present experience, and more relaxed about thoughts as they come and go. It does seem that over the days new experiences or perspectives come along quite often. There is still some thoughts from time to time about how things may change in the future, although my intention is just to relax and look at whatever I encounter.

Sitting with the question of the preference, there is an aversion to fear. It is fine to experience a range of emotions, it is unpleasant when there is a component of fear. My intention generally is to look at feelings, to watch the change and texture of the experience. With fear, I also feel some motivation to change the experience in a way that removes it. As I become more accustomed to seeing emotions clearly, they rise and fall and do no harm, they experience of fear and my aversion to it becomes less.

Thanks for your help.

Trev

[Trev]

Hi Fred

It is 5.40am. I have been awake for a while, troubled by strong feelings, so I decided to type something now, while they are happening.

This post is based on your questions from the 29th of April, I have responded to the points one at a time.

The physical sensations are tension in that back of the neck, feels like something is pushing the head forward and muscles are straining to push it back. Also, tension around the throat, the shoulders, lower back, buttocks, thighs. Then in the solar plexus there is a dull pressure. The chest is sort of tingling and pressured which gets more intense up to the throat.

The story is persistent and repetitive. It is around a training course I could have done for free and decided not to, and now I realise it would be useful to have the qualification, and I would probably have to pay several thousand pounds to get it. That feels like a lot of money to part with “unnecessarily”. The thoughts that arise are partly of the actions in the past by me and others that led to not doing it. And thoughts of me in the future, looking for ways to do it and being told it will cost a lot of money. ‘I’ tend to be the central character, the images are generally looking from my body, while interacting with other people.

Boiling it down to one word, ‘control’ seems to fit best. Or ‘loss of control’. A poor decision was made in the past leading to unnecessary ‘loss’ of money. Money seems closely linked to control.

Is control attainable? Definitely not.

Is the scenario and accurate representation of what is happening right now? I presume this is right now, this minute. No it isn’t. I am sitting in a room at home, typing these notes. In quite a comfortable chair. Getting light outside. Still some tension, although that has eased while I have been typing. Opening out into the present, there are many other possibilities, many other people taking up space not far from here. If awareness shrinks down to ‘my anticipated future’, this issue is quite likely to arise at some point (to spend the money now or not). That will come in time, and a decision will be made without any effort from me, other than to stay in the present and relax and let each decision be made in the moment (which happens anyway) whether there are troubling thoughts and tension or whether there is relaxation and openness.

That’s all for now.

Thanks.

Trev

[Freddi]

Thank you for your two posts, Trev, and for this in depth look into what's happening (sensations) and what's not happening (accompanying thoughts).

You're right, control is definitely not attainable. There never was any such thing, only a thought about it.
And the scenario playing in the attic has nothing to do with what's experienced in this moment.
This look into direct experience is really good, and is part of the on-going work that deals with residual thinking patterns that still run after the illusion has been seen.
We could continue this exploration into what's coming up together in another part of the forum, reserved to those who have looked and have not found a self.

For now we will concentrate on this gateless gate...
You have taken many looks into the actuality of THIS, into the here and now, and you have not found a self, a Trev, in control of 'his' life, correct?

You have also seen that there may or may not be some expectations about some 'other' THIS, where self-referential thoughts are fewer and far between, but that these are all stories about an alternative to THIS, in other words a fiction, correct?

Thank you

Fred

[Trev]

Hi Fred

We could continue this exploration into what's coming up together in another part of the forum, reserved to those who have looked and have not found a self.

That would be good. I can stop and look and be satisfied that there is no self, however as you say, there are still residual thinking patterns. Your suggestions have been useful and the patterns feel manageable and sometimes interesting, although I do think further guidance on them would be helpful at times.

You have taken many looks into the actuality of THIS, into the here and now, and you have not found a self, a Trev, in control of 'his' life, correct?

Yes. It seems clear that there is experience of a body, feelings and thoughts and that none of these contain any self or controller.

You have also seen that there may or may not be some expectations about some 'other' THIS, where self-referential thoughts are fewer and far between, but that these are all stories about an alternative to THIS, in other words a fiction, correct?

You can say that. I can see that they are contained in a thought rather than experienced in the present.

Thanks
Trev

[Freddi]

Hi Trev,

How does it feel to have looked and not found a self? Has anything changed, loosened or relaxed, since the beginning of our dialogue?

How does the illusion of the separate self happen, if you look at it from direct experience?

Do 'you' decide, choose, intend anything at all? Are 'you' responsible for anything? Is there free will? Can you give a couple of examples of apparent decision making events as they are seen in actual experience?

Thank you!

Fred